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Post by ted on Aug 25, 2016 15:33:05 GMT -5
I’m looking for that moment where she drops her weapons, drops her guard, looks me eye, and emotionally says “I love you. I miss you. Let’s figure this out, because there’s no one with whom I’d rather spend the next fifty years.” Instead it feels like our two-year separation has played out a macro version of a conversation we had a few years back.
It was contentious, she was angry but I was not, and I gently asked “I know this is an unusual request, and I wouldn’t make it if it weren’t very important to me, but can we please just pause for thirty seconds. Can you please tell me that you love me. You don’t have to hug me, it doesn’t have to be a big deal, we don’t have to stop this conversation. Please, just tell me you love me to reassure me that even though we’re fighting right now, we’re okay, we’re still us, we’re not enemies.”
“No.”
“Honey—you know I’ve never asked for this before. I’m not a drama king. I wouldn’t ask if it weren’t really important to me in this moment—please just take 15 seconds, tell me you love me, and we can go right back to the issue at hand.”
“You know I love you. I’ve said it before, why should I say it again now. No.”
“Honey, I realize this might not make any sense, Please, just reassure me. I’m feeling like the future of our marriage hangs in the balance here. If you love me, please just do this. Please, just say you love me—please, just eight seconds.”
“No, I won’t.”
Now we’re separated, and I’m asking “Do you love me? Do you desire me? Do you know or appreciate or miss anything about me, as a person? Do you want to spend the next fifty years, arm in arm, living life together?” I’ve asked in person; I’ve asked in counseling; I’ve asked with my actions. But she’s mostly silent.
Lately, I’ve sent her an emotional poem about parenthood. No response. I’ve sent her two songs I’ve cried and cried over as they relate to our marriage. The second one got a response of “Thanks for the emotional song. Now, regarding a different subject…” I’ve sent a very long, emotional letter. No response. I’ve been uninvited to our counseling sessions.
When I express my despair that she never takes action, never calls, never drops by, never texts, she responds quickly, “That’s hypocritical. You could have called, or dropped by, or texted. Why do you expect me to do something that you’re not doing?”
On the one hand, I struggle with that accusation of hypocrisy. On the other, a posture of listening right now feels right—I’m the one who’s been asking the question “Do you love me? I can’t see it. I want to believe it. Please show me.”
Am I crazy to use whether she pursues me as a measure of whether she really wants this relationship or not? I’ve asked her to; it’s no secret. And if she really wanted me, wouldn’t she be compelled to action all on her own?
Instead she sits back, expecting me to pursue her. Still. Again. Someday soon, she very well might declare, “You don’t appear to want me. I guess we’re done here.” It’s like my argument, but turned around and redirected at me. I'm so confused. Who's right?
Is it ever okay for me to expect to be shown more than a “me too?” Or am I a stubborn ass, and if only I’d keep pursuing, we’d be closer already. Maybe I am hypocritical. Maybe I'm wrong and she’s right.
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 25, 2016 16:02:52 GMT -5
ted, time to stop forcing it. Realize, she has zero motivation to change anything, and every motivation to stall change. You pay all her expenses, you don't live with her, and she's entitled to half of all the assets you accrue (and you get half of all the debt she racks up). Anything she does, in either direction, disrupts that lifestyle. If she desired you, you wouldn't have to ask. Or beg. Let alone get a non-answer. Her refusal to answer *is* an answer.
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Post by ted on Aug 25, 2016 16:17:56 GMT -5
[....] If she desired you, you wouldn't have to ask. Or beg. Let alone get a non-answer. Her refusal to answer *is* an answer. And what do I think and say when she inevitably turns this around in my face, "If *you* desired *me*, *I* wouldn't have to wonder. Or ask. Your not initiating with me is *your* answer." Is it fair for me think that about her without thinking the same is true of me? I do desire her[1]. It takes every bit of willpower I have to hold myself back from jumping in and saving this by saying "Baby, I'm so sorry for whatever I did. I'll do whatever you want." Yet I mostly stay silent and listen because I think it's finally time to see whether she wants me. My grip is slipping. [1]: Although maybe I'm mistaking desire for something pathological. |
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Post by unmatched on Aug 25, 2016 17:33:00 GMT -5
ted I don't know about you, but sometimes I feel like that 14 year old girl who once let some guy make out with her at a party and then fell madly in love with him. She follows him around with puppy eyes, takes every disdainful glance in her direction as a sign that secretly he loves her but doesn't want to show it, and believes that deep down they are meant for each other and will be married some day. He, on the other hand, has no interest in her whatsoever but is not going to say not if she gives him a blow job at a party now and again. It sounds like you have spent most of your life pursuing this woman. Now when you step back and give her some space she is not stepping forwards. What was that line from 'He's Just Not That Into You' - if she wants to be with you she will find a way to make it happen. She isn't doing that.
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Post by pfviento on Aug 25, 2016 17:35:10 GMT -5
You have the answer. You may not like it but she's given it you.
Some have spouses that do just enough at times to keep them guessing. In this case she's telling you flat out she's not going to make an effort.
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 25, 2016 18:07:25 GMT -5
And what do I think and say when she inevitably turns this around in my face, "If *you* desired *me*, *I* wouldn't have to wonder. Or ask. Your not initiating with me is *your* answer." "Mexican standoff", or stalemate. So, have you been making an effort? Or has it been a 2-year game of waiting for the other person to make the first move? On one hand, I could understand her (hypothetical) perspective, but at the same time you should each be making effort independent of the other. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2016 18:49:56 GMT -5
Ted, I think you know the answer to whether she wants this relationship.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Aug 25, 2016 19:03:12 GMT -5
It doesn't sound to me like you are not initiating. Sending her poems and songs IS initiating contact (or did I miss something?). Sorry Ted - but this sounds like one of those cases where your self-esteem is barely salvageable at this point and if you don't pull up your bootstraps yourself, you'll be walking around with NO self-respect at all.
Mettamomma used to tell us: if you have to beg, plead, cajole, connive (etc) for sex, intimacy, the love, then it ain't worth it (it ain't love). I think you are onto something with the footnote regarding "something pathological" - - this IS my case at least. I had a post-split affair (the superhero now known as LoverMan) and I got flat out pathological about that guy.
I couldn't, for the longest time, figure out why my grieving for LoverMan was SO much more painful than that for my marriage. Well - I had done a "psychological trick" on myself with him and I placed FAR TOO MUCH of my self-worth in his opinion of me and his willingness (or not) to drive a couple hours to see (or let me drop by his place).
After much more work - I now know that I don't want a partner, even for a fling, who I need to "convince" to let me drop by. I want a partner who WANTS to spend time with me, for sex and also not only for sex. I feel a shred of self-respect building on this bare cornerstone. I hope you can accept that her actions speak louder than her words (and in fact, her words aren't even that convincing).
My Inner Child cringes at the phrasing "you know I love you" because this phrase was about the closest thing that my mom would ever say to me: You know your dad & I love you. That is NOT the same as "I love you" and is a really far cry from "I love you for who you are, not what you do"
She is living the life she wants, I suspect. And the longer you hang onto the hopeful idea that she wants to be with you but "just won't say it out loud" then the longer she gets to milk your pocketbook.
Good luck buddy - I feel for you but I believe you have your answer every time she says no or stays silent.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2016 19:32:13 GMT -5
Did grantgeek just reference mettamomma??? From EP???....omg....that woman....she was tough....
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Post by unmatched on Aug 25, 2016 19:42:57 GMT -5
Did grantgeek just reference mettamomma??? From EP???....omg....that woman....she was tough.... She was pretty tough, but she was also right. As GeekGoddess said, she used to say over and over again, 'If you have to beg, plead, threaten or connive to get sex, then you are NEVER going to have the kind of sex life you want.' And you have to admit she has a point! If your partner doesn't want to love you the way you want to be loved, spontaneously and all by themselves, then no amount of behaviour modification is going to make it any better. |
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Post by baza on Aug 25, 2016 21:16:59 GMT -5
Interesting this is.
Zipcode therapy usually works waaay better than this example.
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Most times zipcode therapy gives you (and spouse) an opportunity to have a total re-evaluation of your life, and where you want it to go.
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It actually reads like your missus is doing just that, to an extent at least, whereas you do not even seem to have begun that process.
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Recently, Brother works4me posted a story - an unusual story - wherein he and his former missus still pork each other now and then.
Maybe there's something in that story that you could take away Brother ted.
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Were you to conclusively end this present charade it would end the nexus.
The "old" relationship would be done, finished, kaput.
And THAT, would force a complete re-think on both your behalves about what role (if any) you might play in each others lives from then.
Whatever that "new" relationship looked like, it would be based on truth. On fact. On reality.
That "might" look like works4me's deal (it probably wouldn't, but it "might")
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What it WOULD do, is to force a complete re-definition of the relationship, and given where the relationship presently is - in some state of hiatus / pause / status - then that would be a good outcome don't you think ?
You'd both have a position of certainty as stand alone individuals to launch in to the next phase of your individual lives.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Aug 25, 2016 22:12:56 GMT -5
Did grantgeek just reference mettamomma??? From EP???....omg....that woman....she was tough.... She was pretty tough, but she was also right. As GeekGoddess said, she used to say over and over again, 'If you have to beg, plead, threaten or connive to get sex, then you are NEVER going to have the kind of sex life you want.' And you have to admit she has a point! If your partner doesn't want to love you the way you want to be loved, spontaneously and all by themselves, then no amount of behaviour modification is going to make it any better. Yes, she was tough. She was exactly as tough as I needed to hear it though. If she ever scathed on you, then you may have overlooked the validity of much of her statements. But I just let the scathing parts fall to the side and opened my mind to look for the similarities in what she said and to see how I could use/apply any of her input. And there was a lot that I could use, did use, and still reference today. I do not wish to have a partner whose "desire for me" has to be something I micromanage - to keep it cultivated, to invest my own time making sure that desire builds and doesn't fade and stays alive. I understand ups & downs of a sex life and of a person's individual libido. But I want a person to want me, all on their own, without me "orchestrating" it. If I have manipulated it out of them, that is not the kind of sex or passion that I will find fulfilling. That may be just me. Bu I really want someone who is pretty stable in their own personality, does not NEED me in their life, yet likes me enough that they WANT me in their life and in their bed naked. I really loved MM's input. I was sad to hear she wasn't following to this forum. I knew I'd already culled a lot of good wisdom from her though. And I hope she is out there in the world screwing her brains out (or whatever else her & her mate decide) between fabulous theatrical adventures. |
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Post by nyartgal on Aug 26, 2016 17:53:19 GMT -5
I can't understand why there isn't a timer on this one.how long are you going to wait to get the answer you already know is coming, which is that she doesn't love you or want what you want? It's never, ever going to happen. Never. And she will never tell you. So you are wasting your own time waiting for never on more than one level. Why?
If you love someone, set them free. She doesn't love you, so she won't set you free. But you still love her, or at least you still love the fantasy of her and the dream of what might have been but never will be. So perhaps you can finally let her, and it, go.
Use the love you feel to release yourself from your own trap. Love yourself and let this go.
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Post by itsjustus on Aug 26, 2016 21:59:01 GMT -5
Just 30 seconds.....just 15 seconds....just 8 seconds....please.....please.... ted, to have your love and devotion boiled down to a "No" at the cost of only 8 seconds..... is your answer. Im so sorry. "Gas-lighting. The manipulation of your own thoughts and feelings turned around and used against you by someone who wishes to use and manipulate you. Making you question your thoughts and feelings, your very sanity" It's not hypocrisy....it is your answer. I'm so sorry. You asked questions. Am I crazy to use whether she pursues me as a measure...... No. It's not. It's your answer. I'm so sorry. If she really wanted me, wouldn't she be compelled to action on her own?.... Yes. She would. That's your answer. I'm so sorry. Is it ok for me to ever expect more then a "me too"?..... Yes. It's ok. That's your answer. I'm so sorry Or am I just a stubborn ass.... No. You're a loving man, loving someone who doesn't love you. That's your answer. I'm so sorry. and if only I'd keep pursuing, we'd be closer already.... No. It's apparent that no amount of pursuing has worked. That's your answer. I'm so sorry. What do I do whe she inevitably turns this around in my face.... Read up on Gas-lighting. That is your answer. im so sorry. Is it fair for me to think that about her without thinking the same is true for me?.... Yes. It's fair. It's your answer. im so sorry. You've been given an extraordinary amount of excellent advice here, by some of the most caring people I've ever known. But I think @phinheasgage has said it best.....the most directly. Ted, I think you know the answer to whether she wants this relationship. Im so sorry. |
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Post by Isabellas39 on Aug 27, 2016 8:42:41 GMT -5
It doesn't sound to me like you are not initiating. Sending her poems and songs IS initiating contact (or did I miss something?). Sorry Ted - but this sounds like one of those cases where your self-esteem is barely salvageable at this point and if you don't pull up your bootstraps yourself, you'll be walking around with NO self-respect at all. Mettamomma used to tell us: if you have to beg, plead, cajole, connive (etc) for sex, intimacy, the love, then it ain't worth it (it ain't love). I couldn't agree with this more ! If you have to constantly beg someone to say I love you, and they refuse to do something that simple then you have your answer. When someone loves you it's easy to just say it, there should be no begging or manipulating needed. Actually, you would know by their actions whether they love you or not . This is very sad ! I wish you the best.. |
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