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Post by Chatter Fox on Aug 19, 2016 11:36:42 GMT -5
So I’ve been thinking… and this is by no means meant to be a "woe is me" post or a "pity party" thread or a "fishing for compliments" thread. It's just some thoughts that I've been having and possibly some things about me that I'm working to come to grips with.... anyway, enough intro, here's the deal ....
What if I’m just not sexy. Now, just hear me out here. I know that the typical stance here is that “it’s not the fault of the refused.”. I have been feeling very much like it’s not my fault for a long time, but maybe it is to a degree.
I was never the kind to bring home a girl for a one night stand. I’m very much “beta” male material. I am a nice guy. I’m sensitive. I’m caring and nurturing. I like those things about me and I’m not looking to change any of it, but part of me can’t shake the feeling that the difficulty I’m seeing here is kind of my fate. I’m a good husband. I’m a good partner. I’m just not sure I’m the kind that turns the ladies on. I’m not extremely manly. I’m certainly a man and I’m certainly not feminine, but I have a gentle nature about me.
It’s funny because I used to read about this stuff often to try and “crack the code” of my problem. I read books about female sexuality and usually it just made me depressed because it really just drove home the negative thoughts in my mind that say “you are just not a sexy guy …end of story”.
On the other hand, I know that my wife struggles with sex. She has some hang ups about it. That much is true. I haven’t been able to figure out the root of that and she seems rather unwilling to dig deep about it herself. So, I know that her half of the story is most certainly a HUGE contribution to the problem.
Here’s the thing though. What if she was attracted to me BECAUSE I wasn’t very sexy. What if ALL the women that have EVER been attracted to me were attracted to be BECAUSE I wasn’t sexy. What if I am simply a magnet for sexually dysfunctional women? What if I repulse women that have strong sexual needs? Isn’t it possible that I wouldn’t have been able to cut it for any women that placed a high priority on sex? What if my relatively low level of sex appeal kind of made a sexless marriage a done deal before I even met my wife? What if it was just my destiny? Not so much because I met my wife but because the only women that would marry me are ones that care very little about sex in the first place? Could I have even held onto a woman that had a strong libido?
It’s funny too because I know that the alpha males have their own share of difficulties with women. From what I’ve heard, many of them have no problem getting in a girls pants but it’s tough for them to be able to maintain a long term relationship because they struggle with some of the softer aspects of a relationship with a female. ...or they have so much sexiness that they can't help but stray after so many years. lol. Of course, a lot of this post is blanket generalities and I’m not a big fan of doing that. I like to believe that we are all unique enough that you can’t really make rules that apply globally to everyone. Still, sometimes I get sucked into that black hole of thought ….
It’s just a line of thought that I have had going on here for a while. Anyone have any thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 11:44:40 GMT -5
So I’ve been thinking… and this is by no means meant to be a "woe is me" post or a "pity party" thread or a "fishing for compliments" thread. It's just some thoughts that I've been having and possibly some things about me that I'm working to come to grips with.... anyway, enough intro, here's the deal .... What if I’m just not sexy. Now, just hear me out here. I know that the typical stance here is that “it’s not the fault of the refused.”. I have been feeling very much like it’s not my fault for a long time, but maybe it is to a degree. I was never the kind to bring home a girl for a one night stand. I’m very much “beta” male material. I am a nice guy. I’m sensitive. I’m caring and nurturing. I like those things about me and I’m not looking to change any of it, but part of me can’t shake the feeling that the difficulty I’m seeing here is kind of my fate. I’m a good husband. I’m a good partner. I’m just not sure I’m the kind that turns the ladies on. I’m not extremely manly. I’m certainly a man and I’m certainly not feminine, but I have a gentle nature about me. It’s funny because I used to read about this stuff often to try and “crack the code” of my problem. I read books about female sexuality and usually it just made me depressed because it really just drove home the negative thoughts in my mind that say “you are just not a sexy guy …end of story”. On the other hand, I know that my wife struggles with sex. She has some hang ups about it. That much is true. I haven’t been able to figure out the root of that and she seems rather unwilling to dig deep about it herself. So, I know that her half of the story is most certainly a HUGE contribution to the problem. Here’s the thing though. What if she was attracted to me BECAUSE I wasn’t very sexy. What if ALL the women that have EVER been attracted to me were attracted to be BECAUSE I wasn’t sexy. What if I am simply a magnet for sexually dysfunctional women? What if I repulse women that have strong sexual needs? Isn’t it possible that I wouldn’t have been able to cut it for any women that placed a high priority on sex? What if my relatively low level of sex appeal kind of made a sexless marriage a done deal before I even met my wife? What if it was just my destiny? Not so much because I met my wife but because the only women that would marry me are ones that care very little about sex in the first place? Could I have even held onto a woman that had a strong libido? It’s funny too because I know that the alpha males have their own share of difficulties with women. From what I’ve heard, many of them have no problem getting in a girls pants but it’s tough for them to be able to maintain a long term relationship because they struggle with some of the softer aspects of a relationship with a female. ...or they have so much sexiness that they can't help but stray after so many years. lol. Of course, a lot of this post is blanket generalities and I’m not a big fan of doing that. I like to believe that we are all unique enough that you can’t really make rules that apply globally to everyone. Still, sometimes I get sucked into that black hole of thought …. It’s just a line of thought that I have had going on here for a while. Anyone have any thoughts. Your first problem is the alpha and beta male talk. At the first sign of a man using these terms I'm outta there. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 19, 2016 12:08:07 GMT -5
So I’ve been thinking… and this is by no means meant to be a "woe is me" post or a "pity party" thread or a "fishing for compliments" thread. It's just some thoughts that I've been having and possibly some things about me that I'm working to come to grips with.... anyway, enough intro, here's the deal .... What if I’m just not sexy. Now, just hear me out here. I know that the typical stance here is that “it’s not the fault of the refused.”. I have been feeling very much like it’s not my fault for a long time, but maybe it is to a degree. I was never the kind to bring home a girl for a one night stand. I’m very much “beta” male material. I am a nice guy. I’m sensitive. I’m caring and nurturing. I like those things about me and I’m not looking to change any of it, but part of me can’t shake the feeling that the difficulty I’m seeing here is kind of my fate. I’m a good husband. I’m a good partner. I’m just not sure I’m the kind that turns the ladies on. I’m not extremely manly. I’m certainly a man and I’m certainly not feminine, but I have a gentle nature about me. It’s funny because I used to read about this stuff often to try and “crack the code” of my problem. I read books about female sexuality and usually it just made me depressed because it really just drove home the negative thoughts in my mind that say “you are just not a sexy guy …end of story”. On the other hand, I know that my wife struggles with sex. She has some hang ups about it. That much is true. I haven’t been able to figure out the root of that and she seems rather unwilling to dig deep about it herself. So, I know that her half of the story is most certainly a HUGE contribution to the problem. Here’s the thing though. What if she was attracted to me BECAUSE I wasn’t very sexy. What if ALL the women that have EVER been attracted to me were attracted to be BECAUSE I wasn’t sexy. What if I am simply a magnet for sexually dysfunctional women? What if I repulse women that have strong sexual needs? Isn’t it possible that I wouldn’t have been able to cut it for any women that placed a high priority on sex? What if my relatively low level of sex appeal kind of made a sexless marriage a done deal before I even met my wife? What if it was just my destiny? Not so much because I met my wife but because the only women that would marry me are ones that care very little about sex in the first place? Could I have even held onto a woman that had a strong libido? It’s funny too because I know that the alpha males have their own share of difficulties with women. From what I’ve heard, many of them have no problem getting in a girls pants but it’s tough for them to be able to maintain a long term relationship because they struggle with some of the softer aspects of a relationship with a female. ...or they have so much sexiness that they can't help but stray after so many years. lol. Of course, a lot of this post is blanket generalities and I’m not a big fan of doing that. I like to believe that we are all unique enough that you can’t really make rules that apply globally to everyone. Still, sometimes I get sucked into that black hole of thought …. It’s just a line of thought that I have had going on here for a while. Anyone have any thoughts. Your first problem is the alpha and beta male talk. At the first sign of a man using these terms I'm outta there. Ditto. I'm a guy, and I really, really hate those words, and the connotations that have come to be attached to them. Chatter Fox, there's nothing "weak" or undesirable about being a caring, nurturing, sensitive man, and I'll bet any lady here will back me up when I say that. What is undesirable is a lack of confidence, and I'm not trying to be mean, but your brain is so wrapped up in the alpha male beta male bullshit that it's sabotaging you being happy with who you are. Your wife married you for a reason, and I seriously doubt it was out of pity. Take some time, think about your good qualities, how they make you feel, and start by focusing on that. |
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Post by obobfla on Aug 19, 2016 12:37:00 GMT -5
When someone thinks that he or she is unattractive, I ask what that person thinks is attractive. Of course, there are the generic answers of hot bod, pleasant face, and good grooming. But how many times have you met a supposedly attractive person, talked with them, and felt like you took a cold shower? I have many times. It has kept me out of so much trouble!
But every now and then, I run into a charming woman. She may not have a perfect face or an hourglass figure, but the way she dresses and carries herself lets you know that she feels she is worth something. And in those times when the moon turns blue, that woman finds me attractive, even sexy.
I may not look like Brad Pitt or have six-pack abs, but I know I'm not repulsive. What repulses women is when I come across as weak, scared, insensitive, or just plain needy. I remember when I was going steady with some woman, every other woman wanted to talk to me. But when I got dumped, those other women scattered. It was as if I was sprayed by a skunk.
I asked a girl friend why this is, and she said women are attracted to confidence. When I was in that relationship, I felt confident about my masculinity. When we broke up, my self image took a nose dive. That lack of self-confidence was what the skunk sprayed.
The lack of sex in my marriage has me doubting my manhood, and I know it comes across that way. But I try to "fake it until I make it" and hope it takes my smell away.
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 19, 2016 12:54:38 GMT -5
Chatter Fox, I'll take a different but boring spin... I'll agree with you that it takes two, and either one of you could have prevented the formula of the two of you coming together. I think, to some degree, you were drawn to each other, though not for reasons that are obvious to either of you at the time. We are programmed by life to be drawn to certain things and behave certain ways. Part of it is instinctive or hereditary, but I'd wager a lot of it is environmental. The things we experience in our home life, but also amongst our peers. And our peer group is very subject to socioeconomic status. And how we are perceived influences how people react to us. Point being, there is definitely some genetic pre-disposition, but a lot of who we are is rooted in perception. How do we see ourselves, and thus how do we project ourselves. Then, how is that projection perceived and what reaction does that evoke. Then how do we react or change based on that feedback. It's a loop. And it's changeable. E.g., something about my past has made me determinedly self-reliant. I don't know why, but it's core to me. That do-it-all, fix-it-all mindset combined with empathy translates to a rescuer mentality. Which results in seeking out "damaged goods" with an intent to renovate. Cross paths with someone who needs stability and it's like two puzzle pieces that fit together, even if the long-term outcome will be troubled. If you don't recognize your tendencies, you can't be mindful of keeping them in check. So, yes, you will repeat the same scenarios. But, the outcomes *can* be changed once you identify and adjust for things you don't like in that mix. For this, I've found that individual therapy can enlighten you to the process of introspection, putting you in a better position to change the cycle.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 14:05:46 GMT -5
I explored this topic with regards to myself in the Sexually Speaking room with my thread "while positivity is great....". I didn't get a whole lotta supporters... but I totally get where u are coming from....rare is the day it's not on my mind....that I don't conform to society's norm for masculinity....
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Post by Caris on Aug 19, 2016 14:26:51 GMT -5
Dear Beeman,
I can understand why you are questioning yourself. It's in our culture about alpha and beta males, along with many other cultural oddities and untruths we inculcate into our being. Then add that to the hell of a SM that is in fact rejection, how can we not question whether we are desirable or not.
I don't know the answer, and maybe because I don't believe I've ever been sexy. Oh, I've been very good looking with a nice figure, and attracted compliments most of my life (until the past few years, when apparently I became ugly through aging), but even though I could turn heads very easily, I never felt sexy. I wanted (and needed) sex as part of a relationship, but I'm not sure what sexy feels like. I wasn't a flirt or ever used my looks on men. I've always been a sober and sensible person, though staying in a SM for 25-years, I have to wonder how sensible I think I am.
I think it's okay (more than okay) to be just who you are. So just be that because you can't change who you are, and why should you. Just be the best you that you can be, and that's all anyone of us can do.
My best to you that you find peace. I am still working on it myself.
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Post by LITW on Aug 19, 2016 15:18:32 GMT -5
First, let me say that the whole "alpha male" vs "beta male" thing is overused and over often mis-applied. When someone says "alpha male", your mind tends to move towards powerful figures with a commanding presence, and often very successful business men (Christian Grey?). And for the "beta male," the image that the media portrays is a weak-willed, insecure pushover who lives alone with two cats if not in his parents' basement. Why does it have to be one or the other? Real people fall somewhere between those two extremes. I am definitely not an alpha male, but neither am I a beta male. I don't have a commanding presence, but I am not a pushover. I don't own my own company, but I have a good job with a good income and a good work ethic. I don't know 100% of the time exactly what I want, but I am not without goals.
I am, however, an introvert. I don't posses the skills to walk into a room and charm my way into anything. My father does have that skill (he is a complete alpha male) and I grew up thinking that I was defective because I don't have it. I understand now that I am not defective, its just the way I am, however the way I am seems to predispose me to being a member of the sexless. This is my second marriage, and also my second sexless marriage--and both my first and my current wife have huge sexual hangups and lost interest in sex within the first month of the marriage. Like you I seem to be attractive to women who are sexually dysfunctional. As I said before, I have always had a good job and a good work ethic. Perhaps they were attracted to me because I was "safe" -- they knew I could support them financially and probably wouldn't be insisting on sex ever 15 minutes. If that is the case, then it makes leaving my marriage much less attractive knowing that it would be a whole lot of trouble and I would probably not end up in a better place.
A common posting topic on this board seems to be along the lines of wondering why all of us with high libidos ended up with spouses with low or no libido. But when I look back on my dating history, I was never once in a relationship with a woman with a high libido. I knew women with high libidos, but none of them were attracted to me. Whatever that magic thing is that women with high libidos find attractive I don't have so that makes me "safe" ... and "safe" is what refusers are looking for.
What do women with high libidos want? Ladies, feel free to correct me, but from what I have seen, what women want most is a man who has confidence (without narcissism). Back to my dad, he has always been 100% faithful to my mom, but he had female co-workers chasing him his entire working career. Even in retirement, some of my mom's single friends were crushing on him, although not to his face. He is not model material, but he has a LOT of self confidence and charm, and that is what so many women found attractive about him.
So bottom line, if you want to be attractive to women, get some confidence.
just ask Jack Palance
You don't have to be rich or good looking or what society says a man should be, you just need confidence. Easier said than done though, right? considering what a toll sexless marriages take on one's self confidence.
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 19, 2016 15:35:50 GMT -5
... I don't know that I call Christian Grey an alpha; more a privileged, domineering emotional abuser with with mommy issues and a control complex.
Or, an insecure douche in alpha's clothing.
Read the first book out of morbid curiosity. Next time I'll just gouge out my eyes with a spoon.
\rant
Sorry to hijack, but 50 Shades triggers me.
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Post by LITW on Aug 19, 2016 16:37:11 GMT -5
... I don't know that I call Christian Grey an alpha; more a privileged, domineering emotional abuser with with mommy issues and a control complex. Or, an insecure douche in alpha's clothing. Read the first book out of morbid curiosity. Next time I'll just gouge out my eyes with a spoon. \rant Sorry to hijack, but 50 Shades triggers me. LOL ok ... I probably should have chosen someone else. I have neither read the book nor seen the movie, (nor do I want to) , so I don't really know what he is all about, just that he seems to have a large number of the female population swooning over him for some unknown (to me) reason. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 19, 2016 16:39:10 GMT -5
... I don't know that I call Christian Grey an alpha; more a privileged, domineering emotional abuser with with mommy issues and a control complex. Or, an insecure douche in alpha's clothing. Read the first book out of morbid curiosity. Next time I'll just gouge out my eyes with a spoon. \rant Sorry to hijack, but 50 Shades triggers me. LOL ok ... I probably should have chosen someone else. I have neither read the book nor seen the movie, (nor do I want to) , so I don't really know what he is all about, just that he seems to have a large number of the female population swooning over him for some unknown (to me) reason. My wife's read the whole series. That might've been a red flag that I missed, when she said it introduced her to a lot of things... |
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Post by Pinkberry on Aug 19, 2016 17:15:42 GMT -5
I haven't read 50 Shades and I am a fairly kinky person. It just doesn't seem realistic, even in the book descriptions and movie trailers.
If you want a book about what women want, read "Outlander." I don't watch the series because I didn't have STARZ when it first started, but the books are fantastic stories and the male protagonist is HOT. Like on fire hot.
Also, I agree completely with LITW. Confidence is where it's at.
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Post by worksforme2 on Aug 19, 2016 18:14:01 GMT -5
This will be fairly short. Back in the college days I was on a hall with a premed student. He was tall and lanky and he was really nothing to look at. But he always had a baby doll on his arm at any sports or cultural event. His dates were always knockouts. So 1 day someone ask him the secret as some far better looking struggled His reply: It's not a man's physique that gets a woman into bed, it's his technique.
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Post by unmatched on Aug 19, 2016 19:10:09 GMT -5
I want to echo what a lot of people have said about self confidence being the biggest thing that makes someone attractive. And I also think the alpha beta thing is bullshit. I think for most people there is a tendency towards insecurity, and for a lot of men there is a pathological fear of emotions and vulnerability. So the most common solution is to deny all those emotions and put on a big front. To strive for success in business or sport or to learn to dominate social arenas, and then to use that success as a further basis for projecting this confident, arrogant exterior.
And it works, more or less. People then perceive you as confident and find you more attractive. Which is where this whole alpha male idea came from. But it is bullshit because the gap between the real insecure person underneath and the fake exterior gets bigger and bigger. You have to keep faking it and denying your real self and it becomes impossible to have a real relationship with anyone.
But that confidence is something that anyone can develop if they are willing to grow and challenge themselves. What the proponents of alpha maledom miss is that quiet introverts can also have a lot of self confidence and be just as attractive. Maybe they are at a disadvantage in a noisy bar, but they have a massive edge over coffee or in a restaurant because they can actually be themselves.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Aug 19, 2016 19:26:30 GMT -5
Oh that mythical beast that Litw references: man who has confidence (without narcissism)
Yep.
That would be very good to find.
I agree with unmatched also - - it's a bit like the sexist derogatory phrasing of "the cuffs don't match the collar" but - - authenticity is very rare. A person with true confidence has an exterior that matches the interior - a little bit in the middle of most spectrums, honestly sharing what is inside, then you can be confident that YOU are YOU and you aren't hiding a big secret.
I think Beeman - that you do need to work on building self-esteem and releasing limiting beliefs about your self, your future, your fate. I think your innermost thoughts that you are somehow "insufficient" really does broadcast a wrong message (I'm a doormat, undeserving of a sexy mate). You have to honestly believe that this is not true. You must believe that you are who you are and happy about who you are and just, as sister C said, be the best you that you can. It's all anyone can do. And if we manage it, then our real confidence will come through and attract the right person into our orbit.
Well - I hope that's how it works because it is the plan I'm trying to pursue. Know myself. Love myself. Believe and profess without doubt that: I am enough. If I can master it, then I believe anyone can. It takes work - sometimes very difficult work, emotionally speaking. (I'm a work in progress and doing a lot of therapy, as well as other spiritual types of practice, to improve my belief that I am enough. Some days I'm even kind of good at it. And some days, not so much.)
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