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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 19, 2016 19:53:09 GMT -5
This seems like a good time to mention that a SM really strips you of your confidence, man or woman. Now comes my own case. Having the role of being financial provider taken from me took away a percentage of my confidence. It was meant to be temporary. Being a homeschooler took away a percentage of my confidence. It was meant to be temporary. Giving up our living situation for a trinity, ( FIL living with us) took away part of my confidence. That was meant to be temporary.
Many of these things were all done in the name of helping others. The need to sacrifice for rescuing.
It has taken failure of homeschooling, actively looking for employment, and dividing our household, to bring back confidence for a better future.
There once was a time, as a truck driver, working with all men, owning my own home, supporting myself, going into the unknown daily, I had confidence. It showed in my personality and behavior. I was much more fun and interesting to be with. I am striving toward that goal again.
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Post by baza on Aug 19, 2016 20:08:40 GMT -5
Is it possible your missus wanted you because she found you unattractive ?
Sure. That's possible.
Pretty unlikely, but possible.
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It makes a whole lot more sense than the "karma" arguement you put up to explain "why" you are in an ILIASM shithole.
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Here's something to think on.
The membership here is - for the most part - persons in an ILIASM shithole.
"Why" they are in ILIASM shitholes is a different story for each.
There are many many routes that members have taken to arrive at their ILIASM shithole.
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But, having reached that destination, EVERYONE starts equal again, as there is only one route out of your ILIASM shithole.
Irrespective of how you got here, there's only one way out.
And it is not obligatory that you take that route out either.
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I'd counsel you to ditch "why chasing" of your missus as far as you are able.
It is a pretty useless pursuit, and alters the facts on the ground not one iota.
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A time comes when it is appropriate to start looking ahead rather than behind.
For you, mebbe that time has arrived, and mebbe not.
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Post by eternaloptimism on Aug 19, 2016 20:45:24 GMT -5
Chatter Fox, I'll take a different but boring spin... I'll agree with you that it takes two, and either one of you could have prevented the formula of the two of you coming together. I think, to some degree, you were drawn to each other, though not for reasons that are obvious to either of you at the time. We are programmed by life to be drawn to certain things and behave certain ways. Part of it is instinctive or hereditary, but I'd wager a lot of it is environmental. The things we experience in our home life, but also amongst our peers. And our peer group is very subject to socioeconomic status. And how we are perceived influences how people react to us. Point being, there is definitely some genetic pre-disposition, but a lot of who we are is rooted in perception. How do we see ourselves, and thus how do we project ourselves. Then, how is that projection perceived and what reaction does that evoke. Then how do we react or change based on that feedback. It's a loop. And it's changeable. E.g., something about my past has made me determinedly self-reliant. I don't know why, but it's core to me. That do-it-all, fix-it-all mindset combined with empathy translates to a rescuer mentality. Which results in seeking out "damaged goods" with an intent to renovate. Cross paths with someone who needs stability and it's like two puzzle pieces that fit together, even if the long-term outcome will be troubled. If you don't recognize your tendencies, you can't be mindful of keeping them in check. So, yes, you will repeat the same scenarios. But, the outcomes *can* be changed once you identify and adjust for things you don't like in that mix. For this, I've found that individual therapy can enlighten you to the process of introspection, putting you in a better position to change the cycle. @roch649 and Chatter Fox , DC has it perfectly! Please be confident in who you are xx |
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Post by nyartgal on Aug 20, 2016 9:10:10 GMT -5
This is an important topic. I think there is so much confusion about what it is to be a man in contemporary American culture. This whole concept of alpha males, of being a player, of a kind of macho corny sexiness is so damaging to anyone who doesn't fit into it. What thinking, intelligent, sensitive woman would want a cowboy, a frat boy, a Wall Street Gordon Gecko type, or any of the other cliches of masculinity? Not many.
I don't think I've ever dated a guy who someone didn't think was gay or not super masculine at some point. Why? Because they all actually had feelings and showed it. How screwed up that a man who openly has feelings can't be straight? Nothing wrong with being gay or bi or anything else on the vast and complex spectrum of sexuality, but who wants to be pigeonholed?
My ex husband is a perfect example of someone who didn't fit the archetype and internalized all of the bullshit to a paralyzingly degree. He is Asian, not super tall but well built. I thought he was gorgeous and irresistible. But HE had absorbed all these stupid messages about Asians not being sexy, nice guys finishing last, etc. Then when a woman did find him really sexy (me), he couldn't handle it.
One thing that stands out from your original post is how passive you see your role in terms of which women you have been with. It sounds like you feel they have done all of the choosing while you just sat there as an unwitting magnet for low libido women. But in reality YOU CHOSE THEM as much or even more than the reverse. Maybe you are attracted to women with low libidos because they reinforce your feelings of unattractiveness? In truth, you could have actively sought out women who love sex and not settled for less. I think you should spend some time thinking about the ways you have actively chosen your partners and to what degree you have enabled their sexlessness? I say this of course as someone who also chose more than one man I wasn't attracted to or with whom I didn't have a satisfying sex life before I finally broke the pattern. Now I have a super sexy husband (but not a macho one) who loves emotions and feelings AND sex. It can be done, but it requires a lot of brutal honesty about yourself and self searching to get over patterns that are inscribed very deeply in our behavior.
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 20, 2016 9:54:26 GMT -5
@nyartgirl, I wish I could like this post more than once. Everything you said is spot on. That brutal honesty part is tough, but is absolutely necessary.
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Post by nyartgal on Aug 20, 2016 10:02:51 GMT -5
Individual therapy helped me so much to see the dynamics, particularly my own family of origin dynamics which trained me to find it normal and maybe even attractive to have to work very hard for love. I can't recommend it enough.
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 20, 2016 10:08:34 GMT -5
Individual therapy helped me so much to see the dynamics, particularly my own family of origin dynamics which trained me to find it normal and maybe even attractive to have to work very hard for love. I can't recommend it enough. It's why I'm so baffled, frustrated, and angered about my wife's continued refusal to even consider going again. |
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Post by nyartgal on Aug 20, 2016 10:11:03 GMT -5
My ex went for 5 years to two different therapists, and it did nothing to help our marriage. Who knows what he was talking about in there, the weather? You can lead a horse to water, yadda yadda...
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Post by eternaloptimism on Aug 20, 2016 12:53:04 GMT -5
I encouraged mine to go. He went for a couple of months then decided pills from the doctor would be better so he won't think about things ?!? Durr. X
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 20, 2016 13:20:13 GMT -5
I encouraged mine to go. He went for a couple of months then decided pills from the doctor would be better so he won't think about things ?!? Durr. X Funny how that works... Mine got on the pills after she decided she was finished with therapy as well... |
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Post by Chatter Fox on Aug 23, 2016 11:57:32 GMT -5
Thank you for the tough love and advice everyone. To be honest, I hate the whole alpha/beta male bs too. It's just tough when you try to read up on how to fix things. A lot of that alpha/beta stuff seems to crop up like crazy. So I'm glad to hear others not really being on board with it. I wish I could reply to all of you or say more but I'm having trouble finding the time to really dig into this. Maybe I'll resurrect this thread later when I have the time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 13:13:05 GMT -5
Nothing like a W challenging my manhood to dig up the whole alpha/beta male issue....not the kind of challenge I get all chest-thumping about...
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Post by itsjustus on Aug 26, 2016 19:23:11 GMT -5
Chatter Fox. I am about as far removed from the stereotypical "Alpha-Male" (a whole concept I dislike immensely) as you can get. I'm not particularly attractive, I'm bald, short statured and have the lines that my age has earned me. Like most here, I am empathetic to a fault. I share my thoughts feelings and emotions WAY to often and I am in touch with my "feminine" side". I struggle to be assertive, because I don't want to be "That Guy", the asshole that gets away with running over everyone and thing. I don't want to hurt peoples feelings. I consider myself "a nice guy". A gentle man. And I suffered thru a 32 year SM marriage to a controlling woman, who literally told me she didn't particularly find me "sexy", driving me even further down the emasculated male path. Since I've left that SM shithole, I've been deemed not only sexy, but I've experienced the kind of love making that Alpha-Males could only dream of. The relationship I'm in now has at its very core all the attributes I had before. I like to think I'm still a nice guy. Still empathic. Still a gentle, thoughtful man. And God knows, I'm still bald, short statured and wrinkly! But one thing did change. I woke up one day in that 32 year SM shithole and decided...enough. It wasn't a matter of selfishness it was a matter of selfpreservation. And I stood up for myself. And while I tried to preserve the marriage, I learned that it felt good to have the new boundries I was putting in place, and I started looking hard at what *I* wanted. And I became more and more confident...in what I wanted and more importantly, in myself. That I deserved more than what I had had. And I started to set my own boundries, my own have to haves. In depth. At EP and here. With that new glimmer of confidence, I left that marriage, and I grew more and more confident. I can't say it was easy. I went thru a failed relationship where my self-esteem was shattered even more than it ever had been. I became clingy and needy. In exchange for feeling loved, I de-based myself. And learned a very important lesson. Stay true to yourself. i then spent time on my own. I learned that I liked...me. I learned "Hey! I'm a pretty cool guy. I'm the kind of guy I'd like! Wow!!" I became comfortable with...me. All by myself. No second party required! I woke up everyday expecting to be happy. I woke up everyday feeling alive, all by myself. And my self-esteem and confidence took off! Stiil bald. Still nice. Still short. Still wrinkly.... But confident. I met someone, here, who thinks that's pretty cool. I'm now more sensitive than I've ever been. I'm more caring than I've ever been. I'm more open, honest, and vulnerable...than I've ever been. And I'm more confident than I've ever been. I know what I want. I know what I won't accept. I know me. I don't "need" her to validate me. I "want" her. In every way. And she tells me that's pretty damn sexy. (And wow, she's sexy as hell.....  )
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Post by Chatter Fox on Aug 27, 2016 7:28:48 GMT -5
Chatter Fox. I am about as far removed from the stereotypical "Alpha-Male" (a whole concept I dislike immensely) as you can get. I'm not particularly attractive, I'm bald, short statured and have the lines that my age has earned me. Like most here, I am empathetic to a fault. I share my thoughts feelings and emotions WAY to often and I am in touch with my "feminine" side". I struggle to be assertive, because I don't want to be "That Guy", the asshole that gets away with running over everyone and thing. I don't want to hurt peoples feelings. I consider myself "a nice guy". A gentle man. And I suffered thru a 32 year SM marriage to a controlling woman, who literally told me she didn't particularly find me "sexy", driving me even further down the emasculated male path. Since I've left that SM shithole, I've been deemed not only sexy, but I've experienced the kind of love making that Alpha-Males could only dream of. The relationship I'm in now has at its very core all the attributes I had before. I like to think I'm still a nice guy. Still empathic. Still a gentle, thoughtful man. And God knows, I'm still bald, short statured and wrinkly! But one thing did change. I woke up one day in that 32 year SM shithole and decided...enough. It wasn't a matter of selfishness it was a matter of selfpreservation. And I stood up for myself. And while I tried to preserve the marriage, I learned that it felt good to have the new boundries I was putting in place, and I started looking hard at what *I* wanted. And I became more and more confident...in what I wanted and more importantly, in myself. That I deserved more than what I had had. And I started to set my own boundries, my own have to haves. In depth. At EP and here. With that new glimmer of confidence, I left that marriage, and I grew more and more confident. I can't say it was easy. I went thru a failed relationship where my self-esteem was shattered even more than it ever had been. I became clingy and needy. In exchange for feeling loved, I de-based myself. And learned a very important lesson. Stay true to yourself. i then spent time on my own. I learned that I liked...me. I learned "Hey! I'm a pretty cool guy. I'm the kind of guy I'd like! Wow!!" I became comfortable with...me. All by myself. No second party required! I woke up everyday expecting to be happy. I woke up everyday feeling alive, all by myself. And my self-esteem and confidence took off! Stiil bald. Still nice. Still short. Still wrinkly.... But confident. I met someone, here, who thinks that's pretty cool. I'm now more sensitive than I've ever been. I'm more caring than I've ever been. I'm more open, honest, and vulnerable...than I've ever been. And I'm more confident than I've ever been. I know what I want. I know what I won't accept. I know me. I don't "need" her to validate me. I "want" her. In every way. And she tells me that's pretty damn sexy. (And wow, she's sexy as hell..... ) I may print this out, put it in a fancy frame, and hang it on my wall. You sir, just made me smile wider than I have in a long while. I needed that ... bad. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I can relate so deeply. I feel like you are the future me ... and I really needed to see that my future can be bright and can be something to look forward to. *big sigh of relief* Seriously... a huge thanks. |
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Post by bballgirl on Aug 27, 2016 12:32:19 GMT -5
itsjustus - Wow!! What a great post for all to read! I can so relate to the getting out for self preservation after years of trying to fix something that was dead. I'm very happy for you that you found your happiness.
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