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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 17, 2023 11:14:12 GMT -5
Your account sounds like the several years of peak misery I had, before I realized and discovered some things and called it quits on my end of that relationship. I took some lessons from that period:
1. The lack of sex in my marriage was not due to her indifference in general to it. She had been into sex prior to marriage and she was very into it after marriage, but not with me. 2. It wasn't that she didn't want sex enough with me - it was that she actively avoided it with me. Aversion is not indifference. In my single years, I've had all kinds of "why not?" sex. It's not all that hard a thing to do when I'm ambivalent. 3. As such, the absence of sex in my married relationship was really a symptom of a very significant misalignment in intention and feeling overall. It's easy to hang that on the sex because you can point to it, but it's a bit like mistaking the map for the territory. In fact, the bigger issue was that my wife didn't wish to marry me, and everything else was downstream of that. 4. The absence of sex was not itself the product of someone who had become dysfunctional in the way she expressed love - it was an absolutely accurate way of expressing her feelings toward me.
So, to your point about feeling lonely in your marriage, and particularly when trying to bleed the steam on sexual desire -- it seems common to end up feeling more lonely as a byproduct of exploring this by yourself. It can remind you that you don't have someone to share it with. As that feeling increases, it can get mixed into shame and regret, and even self-loathing. Took a long time to shake that on my part, and there are parts that are still hard for me to let go.
I have an acquaintance who sometimes uses paid escorts and I tried to explain why that wouldn't do it for me. I think what people want in sex, is to feel that it matters to someone. That the pleasure I'm being made to feel matters, or that my partner's pleasure matters, and is appreciated. In a celibate marriage, as with porn or where money is involved, it doesn't really matter to another person and so it can feel like an empty experience.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 4, 2023 13:41:01 GMT -5
I will never be able to wrap my head around why a man wouldn't seek help to maintain his sex life. Been there. Got right on it. Five years out, it's my choices that keep my sex life amazing. Because restoring your sex life, when married to someone who you don't like/don't want to have sex with, requires an infidelity on your part. This may clash with personal value principles and it likely risks spiraling into a divorce if caught. As everyone on this board knows, finding oneself within an unsatisfying invested and committed relationship doesn't necessarily align all that well with an immediate intention to divorce. If anyone on this board needs to wrap their head around it, I suspect most of us can think back to a time in which we longed for the relief of not desiring a partner who had presented relentless rejection within the context of a committed monogamous relationship. If you start with the assumption that both parties are dealing with an uncomfortable truth (one spouse being attracted to a partner who doesn't want them, and one spouse being married to a partner who they dislike, hold in contempt, hold no attraction), then an apparent lack of libido would be seen as a benefit to continuing the married relationship.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 3, 2023 11:10:29 GMT -5
Then my wife told me that this sleeptouching has been making her feel "used like a toy", disrespected, and forsaken or unwanted. Still trying to grok that last bit, since she has abandoned me sexually for these past 10 years. She said it happens much more frequently than I realize, because I often don't wake up enough to remember it.[...] What do you think about "sleeptouching"? Pro or anti? The language she's using is nuclear-threat level intensity. It's the language of rape. I recall a similar thing coming up in couples' therapy in my own situation, and it briefly made the therapist drop the mask and ask if we wanted to throw in the towel on it. He said this is a very common thing, he'd seen it many times, and it never ends well (and we were no exception). To be clear, it doesn't mean that this is what was actually happening, but rather that any bid for affection (even non-sexual, benign) would be perceived as "using like a toy or a piece of meat". When said without a hint of reflection as to the impact on you, it likely means the level of disconnection has reached disgusted or contempt levels, and is so intense for her that she must believe you are aware of it as well. Which means when you touch her, or you put yourself in a situation where touching might happen, you are doing it with a person who CLEARLY doesn't want any of it with you. From her standpoint, it gets used to make her think that there's something twisted with YOU in that you will seek this out with someone who doesn't want it. It becomes further evidence of how contemptable she thinks you are. "I was trying to sleep and this guy groped me all night when I told him I didn't want it." From your standpoint, it takes you at your most vulnerable and compromised place - you've chosen to sleep beside this person - and it's now twisted into something monstrous. And you've already ceded so much ground. "All I did was fall asleep beside my wife, and I woke up to basically a sexual assault accusation" It's a very tough place to be in - and heartbreaking.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 3, 2023 10:29:39 GMT -5
She's comfortable with how things are. Her choice is the status quo with the belief you won't change that. That means it's your move. Confirm her beliefs or disprove them. [...] One possible outcome is, "hysterical bonding sex." Crazy name but it is searchable. The refuser realizes they need to get their act together, and will suddenly have an amazing sex drive and may even enjoy the sexual experience, but, it all dissipates as soon as the threat is gone. In my experience, it tapers off within three weeks. Some observations, inspired by these two comments: 1. No, there is no evidence that she is comfortable with how things are. Never make that mistake. There is evidence that she is CHOOSING to not have sex with her husband, but there isn't evidence of the mindset or intention. Given that most refusers in celibate marriages seem to go on to subsequent relationships in which sex is present, the issue isn't one of comfort, but rather convenience or some other reason. As such, they are both are choosing to continue the married status and association, identifying and presenting as "married" even though they do not have sex. The OP clearly has reason to stay with it, and likely the refusing spouse does as well. It doesn't mean she likes it, it simply means she's likely choosing it over the present alternative, divorce and/or an affair. (in my case and several others, after a long celibacy, there was an affair). 2. Hysterical bonding sex is unlikely in this situation. It happens after something TRULY traumatic, life changing and possibly PTSD inducing happens, like an affair discovery. What's more likely in this case is "reset sex". Just enough to kite the spouse back into the bed. But yes, a distinction without a difference. Both taper off quickly.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 27, 2023 9:54:51 GMT -5
Married just over 20 years and our sex life has been on the downward spiral for 15. We’ve now reached the lowest point in our sex life - twice in that last six months. Have tried talking to her about it, but it’s now very clear that nothing is going to change, I suggested we move to separate beds but it was very clear she sees this as the first step to separating and was very much against it. I’m probably going to have this talk again as the marital bed really isn’t a marital bed any more, so any tips on having this discussion would be appreciated. "The first step to separation"With very little to go on, you have discovered an extremely important piece of information. Nothing you have discussed so far, nor your six month celibacy, any effort you have made, has made her think that this marriage is in trouble. None of your concerns have represented a serious concern at all. The only thing that's presented a concern is moving out of the bed in which she shows you every night that you are not a person she wants to have sex with. And, it's a suggestion for some day in the future - so presumably, that day is not this day. So, there might one day be a concern for your relationship - and you will cause it when you leave the bed. This is a common thing, btw. Mrs Apocrypha sometimes saw calamity and was willing to have empathy, sympathy, or simply made an effort when I regularly left the bedroom. It wasn't a place for sex, for sleep, for intimacy anymore. It was a place where I was reminded of feeling unwanted as I went to sleep. The first step to separation, though, occurred a long, long time ago. It was whatever happened that changed what she thought about you, or the marriage to the extent that she'd rather be celibate than sleep with her husband for basically - the rest of her life. What I see in a celibate marriage is a facade - a fantasy of what a marriage is. A shared lie. The thing she's objecting to is the true representation of what the two of you have. It's a decision on your part to stop actively portraying a lie, and that's inherently destabilizing to your present celibate dynamic (and hopefully preferrable to finding out about an affair). She's objecting to the truth of your relationship: roommates.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 24, 2023 8:24:47 GMT -5
I see what you are saying and in fact can agree that like as not for many unfortunate souls here this would apply. That said, I am not one your description would apply to due to the fact that from the very first days of my marriage the sex was broken! Why a woman would marry a man and have no desire to be with him physically is beyond my comprehension. But that was exactly the case here. Money certainly was not the motivation for marrying me as I had little. Perhaps the reason I stayed was that I married late in life and thought if I worked at it I could make our marriage normal in the sex dept that just never happened though. I suppose in one regard there is not as much pain involved for a person that never did have good sex with their spouse. Really nothing of value was even lost right? Then consider the couple that started out ĥaving a strong and active sex life that deteriorated over time, now there truly is a loss with a lot of pain. Well, I guess I strayed a bit here. Anyway, I was trying to say that I do not fit the profile of someone who once had a good marriage with a vibrant sex life. Mine started off shot to hell and only got worse with the passage of time. I am only in this situation because I was too stubborn and stupid to call it quits when the problems began right at the beginning! Not necessarily straying. The focus I'm suggesting - and I get this is really really genuinely hard to parse (it was for me too) - isn't the sexual attraction; it's the wanting to have sex with that person. While it would have been tough to convince me I wasn't a troll after well over a decade of celibate marriage, I date and have been in relationships with exceptionally attractive women and have been at least flattered by partners who suggest that I know what I'm doing bed, and Mrs Apocrypha chased me for years prior to marriage. While it's fair to take various perspectives on the anecdote, the point of sharing it is the realization that while the dysfunction might be brought to light around sexual expression, the source of the problem is upstream. Let me put it this way: Are there people in your life who you might say are objectively physically attractive but that you absolutely never want to have sex with? We could start with the obvious, like a sister or brother. What about someone you hate? Someone who you found out something about that changed the way you thought about them? Maybe someone who did something wrong to you, mistreated you? Someone who showed up as a real person when instead you'd had a fantasy - like your friend's older sibling who you idolized, who you later got to know as a person, or a semi famous person. Or, maybe someone you'd carried a torch for for a while but then got into a circumstance with them - maybe working together or having them as a boss, or going camping - and the whole fantasy went poof? My relationship with Mrs Apocrypha was one where she chased me for a number of years when I was more inclined toward friendship with her, but in romance-comedy style, eventually was won over and got fully onboard. But, hindsight suggests that she may have picked me for my original ambivalence. The sexual aversion and obvious discomfort began on the wedding night and went from there, and included a pitch for her to move to another country right away (something that we'd talked about during the engagement as an absolute deal breaker). Mrs Apocrypha married someone she was very attracted to physically and in other ways, but I believe said yes to marriage when in fact she did not wish to be married to me. Sex became complicated because it was likely seen as a way of legitimizing her mistake. Here I was trying to solve the issue of sex and attraction, repairing it like it was a broken circuit. It's not like I was any different the day after the marriage from the day before. What was different was the feeling of being stuck inside a lifelong commitment when she didn't want to be. As in she didn't want to be married (to me, maybe to anyone). That's not really a problem I'd have stuck around long to solve. It's not even really my problem to solve; it's hers. But to her, it was just the way she felt.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 23, 2023 12:27:17 GMT -5
Apocrypha, your posts is a reminder of why in many cases the sooner the refused realizes that their refuser likely just isn't interested in sex with their spouse, the sooner the refused can move on. It's not possible to make someone lust after you the way you want. But letting go of such a marriage can open the door to finding someone who would delight in having sex with you. Took me years to realize that. Me too. I think she just never wanted to be married to me but said "yes" anyway. Or that maybe she didn't like or respect me. She felt trapped by a terrible mistake, I think. She should have said "no" and let the chips fall. If someone doesn't like or respect me, or doesn't want to be married to me, there's really only so far I could have gone with that, and only so much responsibility I could assume for fixing it. At some point, it's just the way she/he feels about me as a person, and the sex is but one of many symptoms of it. It's a totally different scale of problem to solve.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 23, 2023 12:20:03 GMT -5
Your ex W sounds like a very confused person. Now I'm just guessing/speculating from my own experience with my past ex girlfriend, but it sounds like she too has/had commitment problems? I wouldn't call "flying to a different time zone for a booty call with a pen pal much of an 'investment'? It sounds more like the right, very short term, investment for an ego boost, loaded with built in barriers to end it quickly for both of them. Distance, time, money, other people, jobs, etc... Your comment is right on target and illustrates how misguided our years of therapeutic intervention were. So much of it was posed (BY HER) as difference in appetite for sex. The issue wasn't about sex, but rather more closely aligned to her resistance to commitment or commitment to me specifically. Here I was going on about the sex for years, and hating my own libido because it meant the end of my family. But, here's a person who would fly across the country for a booty call, but wouldn't sleep with the guy beside her in bed even if it meant a divorce. It's just amazing to see it so clearly.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 23, 2023 12:09:53 GMT -5
As a dating man, an uncomfortable truth I often observed is that "sex averse" spouses often discover sex with subsequent partners and relationship scenarios. ... Man, that had to be a real gut punch for sure! Talk about a lack of sensitivity. Do you suppose this was part of her just being a vindictive bitch? Not really. While she's often insensitive to me, I think her intent was to assure me that she wasn't drawing from the pool of shared money to finance her trip, and the rest was an unfortunate disclosure. And it's not unfortunate because I'm still carrying a torch; I'm not. I'm in a long term relationship now and it's serious and wonderful. I share this anecdote only because I think it illustrates a recurring motif about how many of us, including myself, often frame the celibate marriage situation - treating it almost like a medical or psychological malady that you are facing together. "My wife doesn't like sex!" No, you don't know that. Presumably she enjoyed it at one point. She doesn't like sex with you, or within the circumstance of being married to you.Maybe she doesn't like it at all, but in most cases I've read on here, I don't see evidence strong enough to make that claim. Framing it that way makes a difference, and that difference is helpful in responding to false dilemmas posed like "Would you end your marriage for something like sex?" If your partner doesn't want sex with you, it's for a reason. That reason is upstream of the sex that isn't occurring, and that reason is the actual epicenter of the conflict. This is a pain that is additional to the lack of sexual expression. Knowing, for example, that my partner wasn't averse to sex in general (which she is clearly not) but rather that she was averse to either me, or the circumstance of being married to me, would have shifted the focus of the interventions we used, and I would likely have cut bait much earlier before going years longer through heroic and foolish efforts.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 22, 2023 15:10:58 GMT -5
As a dating man, an uncomfortable truth I often observed is that "sex averse" spouses often discover sex with subsequent partners and relationship scenarios. I've encountered this when dating post-divorce women, who were just as astonished as anyone.
This week, as I was discussing plans and some shared expenses with my ex-wife, somehow we ended up in some kind of thin-ice disclosure that I don't think either of us wanted. She shared that she was using some of "her own money" to fly across the country - across time zones, in the summer to visit a guy she'd been corresponding with. It was for, basically, a booty call.
At this stage of separation in which we are finally unwinding finances and planning much more substantial extraction from each others' lives, I have no particular designs or longing for her; however, I didn't love hearing that.
I consider the unwanted celibacy I endured in marriage, for how long I endured it, the effort I put in to fixing every possible complaint she had made about myself, about our relationship, years of counselling, lowering our expectations of each other, and even the format of our relationship, and the heartbreak and inconvenience that happened from then to now, including the end of the marriage - over what she termed as our differences in sexual appetite, posing it as marriage/family vs sex. And now, she's flying to different time zones for a booty call with a pen pal. That's an investment.
It wasn't even apparent to her why I seemed caught off-guard.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 14, 2023 10:01:12 GMT -5
Interesting thread. However I am confused. I sense that there is a prejudice against potential partners who have a FWB. It would seem , from my interpretation of the comments, that someone with an FWB could not have a (or be acceptable for a) relationship with another. Why is it that I can have a nonsexual emotional relationship with my best friend of 50+ years and that would be OK? Is it because we are both of the same gender and heterosexual? That seems to be frivolous logic at best. How then to interpret my emotional nonsexual relationship with birdie39? It that OK also or is it a red flag because there could be sex under some proper alignment of the stars? The best part of ILIASM is when it causes me to stop and think about the possibilities of life. I'm confused. A FWB is not a nonsexual relationship. I have no issue at all with someone who has a FWB. I have, myself, had what I might call that - or a casual relationship that was mainly sexually focused and somewhat low investment - meaning we had no assumed date, saw each other somewhat infrequently and had few expectations or a sense of obligation other than to each other's health and basic care. We ignored some political differences and others that made us unlikely to be a match in the long term. There are different onramps into a more fulsome relationship - sometimes sexual, sometimes conversation, or shared interest or just shared activities or experience. Some just stay put in one place for a while. FWB is a sexual relationship. The issue isn't FWB - it's seeking and dating someone else for an invested, fulsome relationship (and "taking it slow" with that, while also maintaining the FWB). That's not just an FWB - it's now an open relationship, which comes with its own package off rules and customs and likely outcomes. An open relationship and and FWB relationship is still a relationship. Proceeding from there without cognizant knowledge and mindful practices, and enthusiasm for the effort involved - is foolish for me. I know how hard it is to maintain an open relationship - it involves radical honesty and cooperation and I'd only do it with someone if I felt the tradeoff was worth it. I like to bring it back to real conversations - like the one I posted upthread. Let's say I'm a single guy who is looking to avoid getting myself into a situation with a woman who isn't sexually open with me. I meet this person, and she tells me she's taking it slow - but she isn't actually. She's in a sexual relationship with someone else - she's just "taking it slow with me". This is similar to the marriage I left.Maybe after our "take it slow" night where I'm buying drinks or dinner, she is going to run out with this guy (who can never be her boyfriend). I had one woman explain her guy - 20 years younger, like it was a big boast, but still not grasp how that appears to me. It signals "I'm not in any hurry with you, Apocrypha, because my sexual needs are fulfilled with a guy I have nothing in common with. I'm hear for companionship, drinks, food, discussion, but feel zero appetite for more." It means she's angling for me to be her gay best friend but has no awareness of it. The odds are stacked against me and certainly against her. I can shake the dice again and see if I can find someone who doesn't have someone in her life, or at least who I'm on equal footing with.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 14, 2023 9:45:53 GMT -5
Do you find this woman attractive physically? Does she turn you on sexually? Would you say that she is equal to, or better looking than your ex? If the answers are YES! Do you feel it's a great moral/ego booster? (that's been my experience after my divorce) A boost to finally feel desired, respected, capable and worthy of giving/receiving sex and intimacy again!!! Even if your new found friend/possible partner doesn't reach the sex/intimacy stage, there's the ego boost of knowing you're capable of attracting and relating to, communicating with an attractive woman! Yes, I do find her physically attractive; she is feminine - small and slim with a pleasant face and a lovely smile. Going out with her has been a joy; unlike my ex, I am able to be completely relaxed and at ease with her. It has been a great morale boost and a revelation - things can be different! Yes, but finding her attractive and recognizing her attributes are a different thing from "Does she turn you on, sexually?" If you have tolerated a celibate relationship for a very long time (which, when I meet someone like that - is a yellow flag), it could be helpful to think about this. I have absolutely gone out with friends who I find attractive, but who don't really "turn me on" in any particular way.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 7, 2023 10:04:31 GMT -5
And this folks, is why I enjoy reading Apocrypha 's post when he indulges us. Raw glimpse of life that give you the flavor of what authentic relationship discourse tastes like. Keep it coming Mr. Apocrypha. Keep it coming. I for one am here for it. And bazinga - that's usually when it comes out. "Oh, I have a fwb for X years/months whatever" "Oh, like a casual boyfriend?" "NO! No, nothing like that. Tyrone could never be my boyfriend..." "He's in your life though, to take the edge off...." "Ya, we see each other from time to time. I find it helps me keep my standards up when I'm looking for my forever partner. For that, I want it to be for real and forever." "I see." Aw thanks. I've been noodling for years about writing this all into some kind of Fringe Fest 40 min play.
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 28, 2023 13:16:57 GMT -5
I am surprised at your experience with the FWB strategy on the part of your companions. I have never had a woman bring this into a conversation. But then again neither have I. My most common experience is having women speak to or around monogamy or fidelity in the relationship. Oh it doesn't start with them bringing up the FWB; it starts with them saying some version of "I'm not in a hurry - no rush". That's a very common opening card, often coming out before the first drink arrives, well before any sense of urgency on my own part is presented. I suspect that it's meant as casual banter that is intended to up their value, or perhaps to pre-empt any anticipated fast hookup expectation on my part before it comes up in conversation. It was a couple years before I decided to loiter on that line and unpack it a bit, as a conversation in itself. It's often a good conversation, and an onramp into discussing what someone's experience is with other people's first date expectations. What constitutes "a rush" or "a hurry"? Do guys move really fast? What happens when it doesn't go fast? If the context is that she's been single for a year or more, or if she dates once or twice a week, or if she's never been married at all and she's my age - those are all curious things to talk about. How is it that we arrive at tonight, enjoying meeting each other in this place? Towards the end of my singledom, I learned to share a taste of my own travails about my own relative strong motivation in finding a suitable partner, that's the opening to ask "How do you cope? Because the struggle is real sometimes, you know?" <laughs, sips drink> And bazinga - that's usually when it comes out. "Oh, I have a fwb for X years/months whatever" "Oh, like a casual boyfriend?" "NO! No, nothing like that. Tyrone could never be my boyfriend..." "He's in your life though, to take the edge off...." "Ya, we see each other from time to time. I find it helps me keep my standards up when I'm looking for my forever partner. For that, I want it to be for real and forever." "I see." In one case, for a single professional mom I was having a great date with, her FWB was her goddam masseuse. In another, with someone older enough than me to raise an eyebrow, it was with a guy quite a bit younger than me. In another, there was a third party who I can't recall details around. And in two or three more, they hadn't quite formally broken things off or moved out yet, but were "seeing what it's like out there" NONE of them considered that they were "in a relationship", having an "open relationship, nor cheating. And I believe they truly believed that. In light of the infidelity in my own marriage and the seeming lack of repentance and constant self-justifications around it on the part of Mrs Apocrypha - I found these discussions valuable in helping me to understand the ways people delude themselves.
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 27, 2023 11:17:18 GMT -5
Apocrypha Am I understanding that a woman attending to sexual urges with an assistant is a deal-breaker for you? Lol! It depends on her level of self-deluding BS and on my own level of openness to the kind of relationship I want. If I need to get my date home by 8 so she still has time to bang Mr Wrong (her FWB), while she explains to me about her lack of urgency in dating as she seeks Mr Right for vacations and husband material, that's a person who is obviously either narcissistic and socially stunted, or who has been deluded by Mr Wrong into thinking a bad relationship is a strategy to boast about. She's in a relationship already. I'm not 100% against an open relationship - I've had various versions of them at different points of my own life (and in my city, the first few months of casual dating are a de facto open relationship anyway). The thing is, if you do that, there are ways, methods, and tools, all of which are needed to navigate the moral and ethical hazards, while still extracting the mutual benefits of a relationship. In my experience, many of the open relationship people tend to view others as resources to manage, rather than as people with their own feelings. When I was closer to the epicentre of my separation, and an emotional mess - I was much more amenable to non-exclusive relationships. I wasn't looking to settle right away, and I wanted to taste the rainbow. I wasn't going to inflict that on someone who was looking for a husband. 7 or 8 years on, I'm looking for a more fulsome relationship and feeling like that opens more meaningful doors than the ones that close. So if I find myself sitting across from someone who picked me because I seem husband-material for her long game, but Tyrone is waiting for her back home - and she's been looking for years and, for some reason, can't find The One, that's more of a red flag than the person who just owns being a poly or swinger or who is just keeping it casual because life is a lot. The latter, I'm not going to put all my chips in, but I have found circumstances aligned for a while in the past.
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