|
Post by Apocrypha on Oct 16, 2023 8:28:35 GMT -5
Thank you! This is all very eye opening. I am really afraid of the answer to the question : Do you want to be married. I know he will say that he does want to be married, but I don’t know if he will mean it. This is all just such a shitty situation, one that I would have never imagined for myself. How long before you got divorced? Did you wife want to not be married? Have you met someone else? Ugh. I just feel so lost. Well, I had a 13-year marriage with kids, that started just as yours did. Sex took a dive after the wedding, starting on the wedding night, then when we moved cities, then again with pregnancy and then a tot. It flatlined with the second pregnancy and eventually she had an affair while we were in marriage counselling. In the death throes after the affair and a failed reconciliation (she pined for him for a year), we tried 3-4 years of various kinds of open relationship, which she sabotaged as well - seemingly deliberately trying to make the worst choices within that format to maximize pain and discomfort. And across the latter 4 years, alcohol started becoming a concern. You can go through all that - and I suppose the bright side for me is that I can say with confidence that I tried everything I can think of including changing myself and changing what a marriage is. It still won't work if your partner doesn't want to be married to you. I don't think I got a lot out of that trade. I wish I'd called it quits or been able to to when the affair happened when the kids were young. Post marriage and even in the open relationship part, I met all kinds of women - some of them very nice. I was a prolific dater, did well (later on) and learned new things with each relationship. Today, some 8 years after her physically separating - the kids are grown and we are selling the house we mutually own, and are splitting out our finances. We had a "close separation" for a number of years to save on costs and to help the kids. (She lived in a place up the street and for half the week had access to the house to be their mom). I have a partner I love very much and have been together with her for several years. I moved in with her and we hope to get married. We are living a married lifestyle now.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Oct 13, 2023 12:25:54 GMT -5
My husband (M42) and I (F30) have been together for 6 years, married for 2. The year we got engaged our sex stopped [...]So then I tried to initiate and there was always an excuse, headache, too stressed (he works in why could be considered an emotionalaly draining profession). he had an “emotional relationship” with a younger girl who he shared “only” a kiss with. [...] 1. Could this just be a rut? Does it get better? Any tips on where to start? 2. Could I be the problem? 3. What causes a man to not want to be intimate after a baby? 1. A rut? No. Sex dropped when you got engaged, and then again when you had a baby. Think about when you bought a house or moved as well. All of those are external markers of investment in the relationship. It's most likely is he did not want to get married to you or wasn't ready. Having sex with you would emblemize the trapped feeling he has. This pattern tracks closely with what happened in my marriage. Clearly if he had an affair (another emblem of escape), he has a libido and a capacity to attach it to a romantic investment in a person. 2. Could you be the problem? Impossible to know - nobody is perfect, but it sounds like there is a before and after centered on the engagement. What changed was likely the engagement. This doesn't mean he doesn't love you, per se. You don't get married to everyone you love. Could his job be the problem? Unlikely - it's just as legitimate a response for someone in a stressful situation or job to WANT MORE sex with his partner - as something wonderful and free and replenishing. Look, you are in the same marriage and household as him, and you want sex. 3. Baby? Man? I don't think it's all that helpful to focus on gender and baby. There are all kinds of men who want sex with their wives after they have a baby, and are denied. I think it's more likely helpful to look at what having a baby represents in your relationship and with his life. And also, obviously, you mentioned yourself - sex went off before the baby arrived. The decline started with engagement. You two are pretty young, so I don't want this to sound hopeless - but I think this really is fixed around whether or not he wants to be married (to you, or at all). Lots of people have a wedding, but after those weddings, not all partners actually JOIN THE MARRIAGE. As I explained to people who asked about my divorce, it's very hard to be married to a single woman. It sounds like you are married to a single man. Like he has not actually joined the marriage, and maybe is fighting it or sabotaging it in different ways, rather than leaning into it. How does that hit you.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Oct 9, 2023 10:26:30 GMT -5
I recommend you speak to a lawyer about this financial strategy. Most jurisdictions I've seen require total disclosure and have means of assessing this, including tax records, attestations that your statements are truthful. The penalties of withholding may work against you. I'm not withholding. She knows about all the accounts. I would freely offer up all my records to her lawyers if we go that route. I'm only keeping it away from her access so she doesn't spend it all on junk. I also have records of her financial irresponsibility if this gets nasty. It's not even a large portion of my income. The majority of it still goes to a joint account that I pay most of our bills from. Sorry, I misunderstood when you said "I'm trying to stack up a cushion in my favor so I have somewhere to negotiate from. (Give her the upfront cash and take on more of the debt in exchange for lower alimony or waiving a claim on my retirement.)" I read it like you believed that saving money in a different account that she didn't have access to would benefit you in a negotiation with her, like "giving her upfront cash" that she likely is already entitled to take. If it's not that and it's just so you both have access to a larger pool of money to split, then that's less likely. I was quite surprised by the extent of entitlement my ex-wife had in my jurisdiction.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Oct 6, 2023 13:44:43 GMT -5
I recommend you speak to a lawyer about this financial strategy. Most jurisdictions I've seen require total disclosure and have means of assessing this, including tax records, attestations that your statements are truthful. The penalties of withholding may work against you.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 27, 2023 16:09:38 GMT -5
He likely thinks you are already having an affair. . Do you really want a divorce? Do i really want a divorce ... yes ... i won't do it ........... most likely same financial concerns... but tired of playing we are "happy" when we are not. we are civil roommates that share a bank account....and several assets. Fair enough, I did say "want" but to be more clear, my question was more aimed at " do you intend to divorce". Financial matters are one of many solid reasons why most people don't intend to divorce. Which goes to my point about speaking loosely (desiring vs intending) about things like open marriages and divorces, when you don't actually intend to do so and where it's easy to confuse the distinction between the two. When my ex-wife tended to say "I want a divorce" (often as a hyperbolic argument tactic), I tended to take it as "I intend to divorce you." In fact, for over a year of that monthly reprise, nothing really happened, until I eventually had enough and posed it - one time, meaning it, and followed through. You might be legit okay with him taking the lead on this, but you've stated above you don't intend to do it for reasons. If that's the case, beware of waving that gun around, if you don't actually intend to use it. Things can go off in unexpected directions.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 27, 2023 9:25:04 GMT -5
I just really would like a refuser partner to be a bit more logical about the situation ..... .i only asked once for open he freaked out has brought it up several times..in fights...... [...]i have asked him if he wants divorce ... told him i do .... If you are asking what he wants (why would he want either of those?), there's no reason for him to say "Yes" to those. It's just part of The Talk. He likely thinks you are already having an affair. The proposal of an open marriage (in any form), or a divorce isn't something where you want loose ends. These aren't open ended questions unless you want surprises and misunderstandings at a nuclear scale. It's not uncommon when someone asks about an open marriage to have a negative response, only to discover later that the recipient of that proposal said "no" but used it as a ticket to start his or her own private affair. And it's also not uncommon to find that sex-averse partners somehow become sexually active with other people. If you propose an open marriage, while I don't think it solves as many marital problems as it introduces (sort of like having a baby, or taking on a demanding hobby or project together), I find better or less bad results happen when "open marriage" is very well researched and people get very specific about the various kinds of formats and levels of involvement and the conversation is well mapped beforehand. Also, if it's in the context of the "try anything" stage of saving a marriage, that it's posed as a choice, rather than a question. Either we get started on separation, or we try an open marriage and can discuss your level of involvement in selecting the third partner. Unless it's posed that way, it's a bit like asking someone if they want an amputation. Of course the answer is "no." But if it's posed as an amputation or die, maybe I'll pick it. Similarly, if you want a divorce, I don't think that's a question you pose (especially if you know you want one). Do you really want a divorce?
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 27, 2023 8:35:35 GMT -5
@ apocrypha he says he does want sex with Me .... but literally he was spiraling down the low t/ ED problem before he had an a-fib event and the medications killed the even once in a blue moon event ... if you get my drift. He has done Nothing to improve his situation including taking better care of his health etc.... I did for a long time want him to want me but know that it is dead and not coming back.... my resentment at this point is he does not even acknowledge that sex was ever part of our lives. we have 3 grown kids so proof is out there. i have a hard time believing any partner does not have some thoughts now and again .... see a film with a sexy love scene ... etc i would actually understand if he was taking care or himself in shower as the chemicals released by body during orgasm is helpful for heart health. If situation was reversed and i could not physically able to do one thing.......... i would try to appease my spouse in another way or would be understanding if he outsourced.... Now maybe that would change if i was actually in that position..... i really think it is just part of a double standard thing... You have a right to be upset. If he wanted to have sex with you, it would be easy. You live together. If ED was an issue, there are other many other ways to have and enjoy sex but they involve thinking differently (and maybe some research and courage and tolerance)- and that's even without taking better care of health. When I look in my rearview mirror at the efforts made in my own marriage, I can now see that I was the one buying the stack of couples' counselling books, researching websites, different kinds of sexual relations and relationship formats. It was my agenda. When see dozens of other dysfunctional couples across this site, it is often the case that the sexually averse one doesn't make the doc appointment, doesn't follow up on the advice given, doesn't even take the pills to overcome ED. Usually, as with "The Talk" - nothing at all happens until a material, imminent consequence is attached. Without that consequence incoming, it's just a fight that you have and that's easier to do than the work. If you both at at the stage that you are at a stage of contempt (either mutual, or singular), then what's marriage bringing to the table for each of you?
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 26, 2023 16:02:38 GMT -5
I just really would like a refuser partner to be a bit more logical about the situation ..... .i only asked once for open he freaked out has brought it up several times..in fights...... just reach the point of acceptance that he cannot or does not want a sex life at all ... and I do .... i have asked him if he wants divorce ... told him i do .... he knows why....... but still not addressing the elephant in the room ...... Once again he is terrified what he will look like ( to others) if i leave and have a life.... he won't have one... he could careless what he looks like to me ...... If you are looking for consistency of thought on your spouse's part that you can identify with, I can help you with that. I can also offer some observations on the way you've posed this vs what tends to work. First, let's back up and reframe the scale of what we are looking at in your relationship. Here is what you can likely agree on. 1. A marriage involves a unique romantic and sexual attraction between two people. It also involves many other aspects of partnership and a shared or compatible dream and an assumption of a future together as partners. Continuity. 2. You don't have that. you do not have a mutual unique attraction for each other. At some point, he no longer saw you as a viable sexual partner and withdrew. Now, that might be because he discovered something about you or about himself that prevented him from seeing you that way anymore. Or, it could be because he rejected the circumstance of being married to you as something he wanted, and so having sex with you would seem to legitimize or permission something he fundamentally wants to escape from. But either way, he doesn't see you as a sexual partner, even with a metaphorical gun to his head. For you, you recognize that a lack of this mutual sexual attraction spells the end of the marriage. It means there is no marriage. For him, he also recognizes this - but also can't change the way he feels (it's not indifference - if it was indifference he would have "why not?" sex, so it's actual antipathy toward you). So, you BOTH are in an unhappy celibate relationship. If he wants to preserve the relationships other benefits (the shared dream, shared expenses, activities, family, lifestyle, friends, the continuity and witness to life passing etc) then his goal will be to gaslight, defer, deflect, wait - do anything and everything he can to take your attention off the sexual dysfunction. He will pose it as you "choosing sex over marriage" as if these are opposite things. If he focuses on sex that he doesn't want with you, or if you change the marriage into some other arrangement than your mutual miserable celibacy, bring in other factors or players, it upsets an already fragile fiction - that you two have a happy household and everything is great except this one thing. And for you, you also realize that without sex that results from a unique mutual attraction, you don't really have a marriage. And you WANT that in your relationship to him. You want him to want you. So your goal is to constantly focus on the one thing he knows will end your marriage and his goal is to deflect that. So, in ASKING him if HE wants a divorce, or if he wants to open the relationship, his response will be consistent with his goal - deflection. You are asking him, as opposed to asserting the consequence of his lack of marital participation. Why would he ever say "yes" to that?
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 26, 2023 11:44:16 GMT -5
It’s been 3 years since my wife and I have had sex or even touched each other. I’ve tried initiating but she’s just not interested and has actively said she doesn’t want me to touch her. She doesn’t ever want to talk about the lack of sex and I feel she just has turned off me and sex altogether. I would like to ask the group if I should just give up and move on. I’m starting to disconnect due to lack of affection. Our family life is stressful and our kids are a handful. I can see the impact of my wife and I’s relationship is not good on them. Is it better to move on for the sake of my wife and kids. I have lost all connection with her Instead of starting with the presence and frequency or quality of sexual activity, consider that to be one of likely several downstream results. What do each of you think a marriage is? What did you sign up for? What kinds of things differentiate a married relationship from other close relationships - romantic or otherwise. Consider: Parent/child, friends, roommates, amicable ex-spouse/co-parent, business partner, boyfriend/girlfriend. Yes you had a wedding - but what would you both agree differentiates a marriage from those other relationships? Do you have those things? Would you agree that whatever you have now is not really a marriage, based on what you agree a marriage to be? If that's the case, where did it go off? Is it that she knows something about you now or has seen something that she didn't before - something that has made her withdraw to the point that she no longer sees you as a viable sexual partner? Is it more that she finds herself in a situation (marriage) that she doesn't actually want to be in, so it's the circumstance itself that makes her feel trapped with you as the jailor? Where did things fall off? 3 years ago - did something happen then? Think back to maybe 4-5 years, or even to the beginning of the marriage.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 26, 2023 11:36:23 GMT -5
I got into a "don't ask don't tell" arrangement because because he didn't like me calling when I went to go visit my boyfriend. I also did not let my husband do what I was doing. I would welcome it today. But at the time, I thought I would only allow him to do it if he was shagging me as well. I thought going elsewhere for sex was already a slap in the face. [...] When my husband asks about my sexual relationships I just tell him that My sex life private for me. This speaks exactly to what i am feeling and want to do with my future..... I have also had some experience with the Don't Ask Don't Tell, as well as transparent polyamory with various levels of involvement - in the context of a sex-averse relationship. Your mileage may vary, but here's what I learned. 1. You may get sex in your life, but your home will still feel toxic, alone and isolated. Likely more than before. That's because the problem isn't just the sex - it's the upstream dysfunction that causes your partner to no longer see you as a sexual partner. It becomes much more difficult to pretend. 2. Your standards in a partner and in your level of treatment go up, rather than being diminished. 3. Particularly with Don't Ask/Tell - this is like writing a check when you don't know if you have enough money in the account. Transparency and involvement helps you know exactly what your partner is supporting (rather than tolerating), increment by increment, whereas Don't Ask/Tell puts the onus of discretion on you, and you can get very far out onto thin ice before your partner snaps. And then you have no idea of how your partner will react. In mine, my partner changed her mind and decided to follow up with a gazillion questions on what was at that point a very minor dalliance - a drink and a kiss - treating it as if I had a full blown affair (which she had done to me). There's no assurance at all that it won't be treated like an affair eventually - a distinction without a difference. Meanwhile, there is enormous effort on your part to maintain a deception.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 26, 2023 11:16:00 GMT -5
I am a 44 year old man, been married for 9 years and together with wife for nearly 14 years (wife is 39) 1. But it has been 2 years since we had sex and other intimacy like kissing/cuddling etc is pretty much nil 2. Am i attracted to her - in reality no 3. Resentment - I thought and was led to believe when we got married we would have out family pretty soon after 4. confidence - she has pretty much been the only woman i have ever been with in my younger years i was knocked back and made to feel like i was repulsively ugly and never good enough to find a girl [...] i don't always manage to keep it up, which then leads her to believe i dont fancy her anymore and she then never is interested 5. sometimes when i feel confident enough to try and initiate other initmacy like kissing and cuddling she says no 6. I am also massively jealous of other guys who have much more attractive partners, and have much more sex - 7. "i was triggered by this today seeing a few of the girls in our office who i would like in that way - hence am resisting doing something daft like taking an overdose of painkillers as i type this" because i just dont see things ever getting better because i am either stuck like this sexless and no children or i separate and divorce and have convinced myself 8. i will never find anyone else who would want me for about a million reasons 9. I am also massively jealous or envious of people who have partners who dress in skimpier clothing and sexy underwear, as i mentioned she doesn't remotely do that i think the most radical thing she would do is wear black bra and pants instead of white and she is a bit of a plain jane who rarely dresses up nice (and yes i did know this for most of our relationship but have just settled because i will never get anyone else) Thanks for your note of introduction. There's a lot to go over, but I've pulled out some items that are of particular interest to me. Some observations: First, you don't want to kill yourself. You just want an end to the feeling of being trapped in your present circumstance. I can assure you that your circumstance can change, and that pretty much any change is better or offers hope over killing yourself. It's not unusual to have suicidal ideation, or death ideation. I kept wanting a meteor to strike me out of the sky, but others want to take more active measures. You can go to a therapist and talk about your problems, but most men would rather kill themselves than talk about problems without actually DOING anything that gives them a feeling of control again over their lives. The way you phrased #7 and #8 has you posing yourself as someone who feels little control and who lives by the charity of others. It doesn't have to be this way. Second, you aren't attracted to your wife, and you've posed that you are with her now because you don't think anyone else (which might mean anyone better) would want you. It's possible she sees the "sexy underwear" as some kind of mask to put over herself. It's very unlikely that after 14 years, she's not aware of your lack of attraction. As such, she would likely interpret (correctly) that your sexual invitations to her were simply the result of you being horny, rather than about any unique sexual attraction between you. Some advice: I want you to look around your 44 year old peer group and consider the people who got divorced and did badly, and those who got divorced and did well. Look especially to the women. The prescription here is less about making demands on your partner, and more about becoming an interesting and attractive person YOURSELF. So, pretend you are going to be divorced in a year, and you need to make changes in your life to prepare. How would you go about that? 1. Confidence. This means doing something DIFFERENT than what you've done your whole life. Possibly doing the opposite of your inclinations. Wardrobe is an easy one to upgrade - lots to learn about men's timeless fashion rules, retire stuff that isn't working and get into stuff that fits you now. Hair: If you are balding to the point of being self conscious, it's time to get a shaver and take it down to 3mm. Don't hide it. If you have hair, get to a proper salon and ask them what you should do. Seek help in upgrading your look - share/explain to your stylist what your overall goal is, and they might get a sense of it. Physique: Getting into reasonable shape goes a long way. Find your exercise if you don't have one. Join something, and/or take up running and cycling. Invest in proper running shoes and download the Nike Running app. If you are actually a profoundly unhandsome man, you can improve your lot considerably by becoming VERY fit - but this will involve more commitment. Details: How are your teeth, nails. The level of care you attend to with these is a signifier as to the level of care you may attend to other things. Invest in your teeth if it's something you are self-conscious about. In short, be mindful of the things you are self-conscious about and then do things to change those things so that you no longer feel self-conscious about them. Update yourself so you can feel good enough on a first date with someone totally new. You might or might not do that eventually, but you owe to yourself the best version of yourself that you can be.. 2. Be an interesting person. An interesting person has interests. What are your hobbies? If you don't have any, find one! Hopefully one that gives you skills you don't have - music, cooking, camping for example. Hopefully things that also intersect socially with women. Both of these things will likely draw time and resources that you are likely putting aside right now for your marriage, and instead - you will put them toward yourself. Consider it an investment. You want your wife to invest in sexy underwear - turn that finger around so it points at you. Don't ask her what you should do. Do or discover something new that you can feel passionate about. If you don't, then toss it and try something else. Do a year of Yes. If someone suggests something you should try, that they have done - make a promise to yourself that you have to say YES. Then do it. 3. Stop thinking of your marriage as a consolation prize --as the "best you can do" with what you've got. No partner wants to feel that way about themselves. Look, if you are at home and feel unloved (and this goes for your wife as well), that's a toxic situation irrespective of whether you can "do any better" for a partner. The choices in front of you are stay or go and be single. Being single is or could be better than being tethered to someone you don't want as a partner and who doesn't want you as a partner, and who isn't acting as a romantic partner. Any prospective romantic partner doesn't want just to be a swap for the previous one - it doesn't work like that (at least not successfully). You need to get to a place where you feel reasonably sorted out as a single man who is an interesting person, who has friends and interests and a life that doesn't depend on someone else. That's much more appealing universally, and puts you in a position to feel more confidence. Instead of thinking of your marriage as a last place finisher, look at what you and your wife agree a marriage to be, and see if you meet that threshold. You had a wedding - yes. But how is your life together different from, say, amicable ex-spouses, roommates, or a family member living with you? Are you living an actual marriage? If you seem lost in a complex situation and wondering what to do, a good place to start is with yourself. Start anywhere there and change one thing. If you can't improve something yet, then think of one thing you do right now that takes a bad situation and makes it worse. Stop doing that. Make a promise now and stop. Small incremental changes in the same direction will take you a long, long way. Sort yourself out first - don't do it so she will love you. Do it for yourself and the results will attend to themselves one way or another - but I guarantee - you won't feel like you feel right now about yourself and your life. Will any of this result in your wife wanting sex with you? I don't know. Doubtful, based on the description you've posed about where you both seem to be in this situation. But you will feel more in command of your destiny, with more options, with hope and optimism, and even excitement. That's not a bad trade from today.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 18, 2023 8:41:36 GMT -5
Well, ask her, don't guess. "Does your definition of compromise mean 'no sex'?" Get specifics from her, not ephemeral vagaries. she's specifically said that she has no interest in sex and that any compromise cant mean trying to "fix" her. So she's been very clear that sex is not an option. I asked her what a compromise would look like for her and she couldn't come up with anything. So I told her that it's not like a compromise where one person wants sex everyday and the only wants it once a week so they can negotiate something in between.... there really is no middle ground in this case. I told her I was hurt that all those years of her coming up with excuses gave me hope that maybe next time she'd want sex. She should have told me years ago that she had no interest. She brushed it off that people change. So I'm going to try the couples counseling next but I have no expectations of any change. I've never heard of couples' counselling working when one person felt he/she was totally in the right, or didn't really want to change. It doesn't sound like the conflict or feeling she has about you or the marriage is something she regrets or wants to fix at all. What are your goals in counselling? Are they aligned?
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 18, 2023 8:39:08 GMT -5
So we talked more about "compromise" and I brought up the idea of non-monogamy and she pretty much freaked out at that idea. She did say she's wants to compromise but not if its all about fixing her since she doesn't think there's anything wrong with her. So I guess the compromise is that I give up sex. Am I wrong in feeling like she changed the terms of our marriage? Imagine your wedding day and what you could both reasonably say you thought marriage includes. How does a marriage differ from best buds? from business partner? from amicable ex-spouse co-parent? Is a unique mutual sexual attraction part of marriage? If you don't have that anymore - and you don't - do you have what either of you would agree is a marriage? What, instead, is the best case version of what you DO have?
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 18, 2023 8:28:06 GMT -5
Then, he started to work out and went to see doctor. Today, he got his blood draw test and happily showed me that his testosterone level was super low, and it maybe fixable. I looked at him and told him that it was good for him. Then he started to accuse me that I was not happy about seeing the result. What?? What should I be happy for? I don’t want to have sex anymore with a person who emotionally and sexually neglected me while there is a solution there all the way. I literally want to have sex with anyone rather than him, because he hurts me. I have been really processing the emotional scar out of this recently and I am glad I started to realize it is not just about sex. I think this is illuminating for anyone feeling trapped in either side of a sex-averse marriage, especially for those who are baffled about the refusal. The way people feel about the kind of person they come to believe their partner is, or the state of being married to them, affects the likelihood of having sex with them. In your case, you would rather have sex with anyone other than him. That's a pretty common feeling within any troubled marriage, and it is indeed not just about the sex. It's about a fundamental conflict and it's difficult to live and sleep with that kind of tension in your home. Sex tends to be downstream of whatever that conflict is. It's a reason why it ends up as such a false dilemma, "sex vs staying married" - as if those become opposite things to balance.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 14, 2023 8:37:44 GMT -5
Hearts to you and this group. I pop in from time to time!
|
|