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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 23, 2024 9:30:00 GMT -5
For whatever it's worth (as a person who was cheated on), I think of the satisfaction people get from affairs in the same way I think about the satisfaction derived from running a comfortable lifestyle on a maxxed out credit card, or regularly drugging oneself. There are people who pay as they go and there are people who borrow against the future. At some point, that bill is going to come due, one way or another.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 3, 2023 12:30:15 GMT -5
@isabellas39, when I think about these kinds of situations and my own deal, I like to start with the truth, and the notion that two or more things can be true at the same time.
It could be true that your partner is a good person, and also true that he loves you in his way. There are many ways to love a person.
It's also true that not all people who love each other should be married, or would be suitable married partners. If it were so - if love was enough - you would marry the first person you fall in love with.
It's true that you cry for days. It's true that you miss intimacy (do you miss it with your husband now, though, knowing he doesn't want it with you?). It's true that you aren't romantic partners, and that you have given up on this. You don't share a unique sexual attraction. It's true that you are living as separate people. You don't share a bed and you live or have lived in separate dwellings and geographies (this is similar to situations in which some separated couples live). It's true that you had a wedding.
When you think of that wedding and what you both agreed a marriage is (a marriage, as opposed to a wedding ceremony), do you have what you both would agree a marriage is? What differentiates your partnership from, say, amicable ex-spouses? Do you have a marriage, really?
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Post by Apocrypha on Nov 14, 2023 15:37:32 GMT -5
Was alcohol a factor here?
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 23, 2023 8:58:27 GMT -5
1 and 2. Dr. Pyschmom calls attention to the phenomenon of "responsive desire" to women who are under teh impression that "the mood" must be present at all times. The WHY? can be physical and born of ignorance of physiology and the nature of the Coolidge effect. "The mood" is sometimes a decision, not a natural inevitability. It's a distinction without a difference if the decision is always No. As a single man, I can tell you that I and other women I've dated are both readily able to have "why not?" sex, with a hit rate higher than zero. But what about a spouse who cannot be forgiven but who has not made a mistake. I think this is far more common. There comes a point in every relationship where you come to realize that the fantasy of the person you met is replaced with a real person. Here's a real life example. Mrs Apocrypha had an unsatisfactory childhood and family life - and this would be apparent to anyone hearing the tale. By her own word, she thought getting married to me would somehow manifest what she'd missed, especially with kids. She projected her tyrannical and somewhat insane father's persona on to me, especially with any hint of a lack of capability, or any difference in disciplinary style between us, though we differed by degrees. Whatever warmth toward feeling of a home and family she thought would happen in marrying someone like me, did not magically materialize as if it was a gift to her. In the years of therapy she often referred to her disillusionment about that failing to materialize, and blaming me for not knowing everything. Like I'd planned this whole adventure, convinced her to go, and then stranded us. She realized, out loud in therapy that this wasn't exactly fair to me. She realized I was only human, and a new parent as well, and that I wasn't actually a tyrant at all in nearly any way like her father - but it DIDN'T MATTER - because that's not how it felt to her. Her heart couldn't catch up and sift one thing from another. At some point, we all realize we are married to a real person instead of a fantasy. You don't actually have to be abusive or awful to find yourself painted that way. I thought in therapy that her realization at how terribly unfair and mistaken she'd be was the light at the end of the tunnel. It was just the train, because she found she COULDN'T forgive me, but also, I hadn't actually DONE anything to warrant the size of forgiveness she'd have to offer - and by that time, she'd already had an affair and years of enforced celibacy on me. It doesn't tie off neatly like a sit-come, where the puzzle is solved and everyone moves forward. The issue, I think in most of these cases isn't so much the sex itself, but rather how they feel about the person they are having it with. That's not something to ignore. I think that because it's common at the end of marriages to go through a few years of thinking they don't enjoy sex, only to discover sex again with a new partner. In my prolific dating years, I've seen this quite a lot. I think this is an impractical comparison for 99% of the cases on here. If sex was never a priority, then why come here and complain about it. There are a few senior citizens here, but they aren't generally complaining about it because they are old. What's being expected most of the time is that someone at age 20-40 is being asked to effectively fall into an oath of celibacy rather than monogamy. Things may change at 70 years old - could be. But at least you'd have lived a life with sexual expression instead of missing the entire thing. Do you see the difference I'm posing here? There aren't any marriage police checking bedrooms here - our declarations of null and void don't matter. What we are dealing with is people who are hurting and wondering what to do, worried they are going to leave something important behind. I think it's reasonable for health to fail in the senior years and for lifestyle changes to appear as a result of health reasons. But if it's celibacy across your prime years, it's likely NOT health reasons.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 20, 2023 8:29:32 GMT -5
All valid, but I think we may disagree about sexless marriages always being about something else bigger. In at least some cases the sexlessness is the worst part. Every other annoyance can be overlooked or effectively addressed, worked around, or tolerated when one isn't steeped in physical frustration. A great many relationships are dysfunctional, but not intolerably so. They stick together, with sex or without. The dysfunction, compounded by sexlessness will be worse. Restore the sex and you may manage stability where you otherwise would not. The truth can be that the marriage isn't perfect, but the sexlessness makes in intolerable. To say that sexlessness is never at the heart of doomed marriages is to empower the refusers who claim the refused spouse's demands for sex was what broke the marriage up. Otherwise it would have been fine. You've noted getting sex elsewhere while in a bad marriage can make the dysfunction all the more stark. The better parts of your life are not owed to the marriage. It detracts rather than nourishes. Outsourcing can demolish bad marriages in a hurry. In contrast a sexless marriage caused by untreatable medical condition may truly be great except for the sex. These are rare, sure, but they would not lend themselves to changing much by any search for "the truth". I know that isn't your thrust, but lesser examples could apply the same logic. Earlier I'd said a lot of marriages do not get to the point of resentment. Let me downgrade that to "many" And I speak of those that come saying "Everything is great except the sex." Those rays of hope represent, to me, affection for the refuser and desire to stay married; these two are not conducive to resentment. Of course, such refused spouses can grow in their resentment. Such resentment can trigger divorces. We've surely seen it many times. My phrasing was, frankly, wildly inaccurate and you were right to take exception. That's an interesting perspective, and it's one I used to share. I don't think it's wrong per se. To convince me though, if you wanted, you'd need to address a couple items: 1. The WHY: The latent, unnamed reason the partner doesn't want sex with you. It hangs over the whole relationship. It's heavy. There IS a reason. It's likely because they no longer see you as a viable partner, and THAT happened for a reason too. It may not be fair, or the right reason. It might not even be correct. But it's real enough to them to change behaviour - to change the way they THINK and feel about their spouse. Even if it's not addressed directly, it is felt by both partners. 2. If the person doesn't want to have sex with you - and they DON'T - then how do you propose them going about sex they don't want to have, with a partner they don't want it with? What kind of sex is that going to be? If it's just a matter of using an acquiescent partner as a tool, well... I could do that myself. If contempt isn't already present and the cause for the disconnection, doing this is a great way to arrive there. 3. Many relationships and partnerships may exist without the sex component but they aren't exactly marriages. I'd want to understand on both sides and get full agreement on how whatever this sexless marriage relationship is, is different from an amicable or close separation. How is it different from the ex-wife you get along with?
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 19, 2023 11:12:13 GMT -5
I have a feeling she thinks it is me wanting to initiate sex so she refuses to come to bed. So exhausted. So I’m gonna lay it out there so she doesn’t have any inclination of sex being part of anything. She thinks anything I do is for sex. She needs to get over herself cause it’s not that great. And I’m to old to argue anymore. Just curious if anyone had to do this to get a real conversation going because it’s been a month since a talk and she said she would change but it hasn’t. These are common patterns, unfortunately. If you are trying to understand what's happening in your relationship, I'd recommend stepping back from the assumptions about what she's thinking. You haven't articulated a reason to think that she doesn't have any inclination toward sex. Rather, she clearly is choosing not to have it with you.She may be exhausted, but you are in the same marriage as her, and presumably if you were tired, you might find sex with your partner to be restorative rather than a depletive activity. I and many others have done all kinds of versions of "taking sex offline for a bit to focus on other things". I've seen it help people become more cooperative partners, and do more activities, but I've yet to see it restore attraction and desire for a person, once sufficient contempt, resentment, anger, or disgust has turned them off to the point that they'd override their own libido to avoid sex with their partner. Typically the only thing I've seen work at even focusing on the problem is something that changes the dynamic to such a degree that the pain of not centering intimacy is worse than the pain of focusing on it. Things like, discovering an affair, being served separation papers, or choosing between an open relationship (with an imminent date attached, and a negotiation about how involved she would be in the whole process) vs divorce. By changing the status quo of the relationship in this way, it's now on the estranged partner to "restore" the relationship if she chooses. There's now a price tag attached to gaslighting and filibustering on this issue. I suppose a half measure that gets some attention might be removing one's ring, and moving the bed - anything that disrupts the outward appearance of a status quo. Taking sex off the table, basically cedes ground to her benefit if her goal is not to have sex with you (and it appears to be). What's the downside on her end to that? You can keep chasing the reason for the sex not happening - keep speculating - but it seems to me like it's the wrong person doing that speculation. That responsibility is on HER, not you - at least once you've attended to improving whatever you think would make you more generally attractive and interesting. I rarely see a sex averse partner lean into the relationship unless they are about to dramatically lose the relationship. And even then, it's iffy - they might just say "so long".
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 19, 2023 9:48:04 GMT -5
If an affair brought about warm feelings for you, take the good with the bad. It may not even be "bad". Maybe just disappointing and sad at first. It would be a key to the prison of sexless marriage. You open the door and walk out if you wish. You don't have to walk out, but if you can... it makes prison a lot less miserable. You may want to break the key off in the door, just in case the warden thinks you can get locked up again. Just cuz you're staying doesn't mean you ever agree to stay against your will again. Sex can be a wonderful thing, and where I agree with you is that you can get to a point of low esteem in a dysfunctional marriage in which the lift that comes from someone finding you attractive is like rainfall in a desert. It gives hope to the hopeless. I had some version of that too. But, I would have had that irrespective of whether it occurred during separation or in an open relationship. Where I differ is that I think the focus on getting sex is a false goal -close to the target, associated with the target, correlated. You might get sex in your life, and that's nice, but it doesn't solve the problem of the sexless marriage - which is really a dysfunctional relationship. I think the focus should be more on getting to the truth of the relationship. If you get to the truth of the relationship and knowing all the facts, you choose open relationship - then great. If you don't get to the truth of a relationship, then it's likely the lie and conflicts will continue to be expressed within the context of the new relationship format. In an open relationship where trust is particularly important, this can be very destructive. You could have an affair and keep the open part of the relationship a secret, but this just delays the consequence and adds deception to it. It can be unpredictable, and doesn't solve the problem of the marriage.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 18, 2023 12:31:36 GMT -5
Is divorce really the only path? I appreciate the many points of view here especially when people here have first hand experience not just guessing. I at first wanted relationship to return to what was....the resentment grew as he made no effort...will not even see there is a problem the small other things grew as well things i let slide that now i want to smack him for. I met a person whom i feel could be great but he is not willing to divorce and lose half of everything ... i was and am willing to start something as open but the longer it goes i see that i doubt that will fix the other issues.... only make me mad when my friend and I are not together. Since my friend sees that too that short bouts of being happy together may not bridge the gap in our unhappy relationship. No. It's not the only path. You are two years in and not yet 13. Most people tend to dig at that mountain with a teaspoon, when they really need a steamshovel. The path isn't divorce (necessarily) - it's brutal, unblinking, radical honesty on BOTH sides. Back up from the presence of sex and start instead on discussions. What is a marriage? Does it include sex? A unique sexual attraction? Find out the real answers here. You had a wedding only two years ago - would either of you recognize this now, described on the altar (a pledge of celibacy on both your parts), to be a marriage? WHY isn't it happening? What is his issue. The result is that he won't - the reason is because he doesn't want to or doesn't like to. What would it take to get him to talk about this? My hunch (based on the sex dropping off with engagement) is that something about that has made him feel like he doesn't want to be married to you. He had the wedding but hasn't joined the marriage - is surviving it rather than leaning in. That doesn't mean he's not working hard at it (imagine how hard it is to be married when you don't want to be) but rather that he doesn't find solace or energy in it. He finds it depleting, whereas you want to find it restorative and a source of strength. So what does it take to have a conversation about that? If he doesn't see it as a problem and refuses to take it seriously, then what do you think would MAKE him take it seriously?
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 18, 2023 12:24:39 GMT -5
Apocrypha's example makes a lot of sense, but a lot of these sexless marriages don't make it to the stage of resentment or disgust. mirrororchid , respectfully, then what generally do you think motivates an otherwise normal person who had a normal sex life at one point, to completely override even their own libido and choose celibacy with their own partner, even when their marriage, family, house, lifestyle are on the line? And then, when the dust clears, resume sex and even fulsome romantic relationships and marriages with subsequent partners? I've been single and celibate at times, and I can say that there are some advantages to that over existing in a relationship that's toxified to the point that someone would rather burn her house and life down than express intimacy with me. I mean, that really SAYS SOMETHING about how someone feels about the marriage or the relationship or the person. The WHY may be unknowable, and may often be beside the point in terms of what happens next, but it doesn't mean that it's not important or intuited. If, as a single man, someone isn't into me that way, that's not an Apocalyptic scenario as it is if my own wife doesn't see me as a viable sexual partner. I may not know the reason I've ceased to be that, but it doesn't mean I don't live with the knowledge that there IS a reason and that reason is more than, "meh". And we're both just marinating in whatever that unspoken thing is. It's soul crushing, it's like living in a toxic dump.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 18, 2023 12:13:20 GMT -5
This is what I was alluding to but didn’t want to come out and say it. I’ve read about this behavior where the one spouse will do an about face and initiate intimacy more because of outside influences. I sure hope that’s not the case here. The man is getting laid and all anyone thinks to do is make him paranoid. Enjoy the ride, Musack. Figure stuff out later. Unless you're not averse to divorce and live in Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Mississippi, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Dakota or Utah. Then maybe collect the goods, and keep that powder dry. Ya, mirrororchid , that's all I think about. Because this forum is just chock a block with people who suddenly spun their marriage on a dime like that for no apparent reason. How about, I've had this happen to me, and couldn't comprehend how I'd missed it in hindsight. Before I arrived at this forum and its predecessor, I found cause to seek support on infidelity forum (which I don't recommend). But, while I can't vouch for the advice and victim wallowing I found there, I did find some common patterns that matched to what I discovered the hard way was happening in my own "sexless marriage". That's why this raised my eyebrow, and that's why I posed questions rather than advice. In my situation, I had alarming answers to ALL those questions at once, had I ever taken stock. I'm simply suggesting to take stock. I wish that I had done so.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 17, 2023 9:47:58 GMT -5
Divorce may appear at the same rate in non-monogamous relationships as monogamous ones, but the problem I have in the context of a sexually-averse marriage is that it does not solve the problem of the marriage. I may live in a home with a leaky roof. I can go on a vacation and for a time I will stay in a hotel and not have to contend with my leaky roof. But then I will come home again, and my roof will still be leaky. Likewise, I may find romance, passion, sexual expression outside of my marriage, but when I return home I'm going to live day to day in a household that's devoid of those things, and that likely has intense latent resentment in it sufficient for my partner to override her own libido. That's not a neutral feeling - it's corrosive to the soul. And it's not *just* sex that's lacking. It's whole set of connections and feeling of affinity upstream that creates a condition for sex to happen. Maybe. But if that is the case, then you just end up divorcing in the end anyway. There's something to be said for having a life partner you can count on, a roommate, to share expenses with and look after in case of medical issues, or share insurance with, and raise kids with. The cold hard logic is in recognizing that teh corrosive resentment makes no sense. Stay or go, you're not getting sex from each other. Do teh trappings of marriage retain any value? You have said it's not marriage. It is something no refuser would have agreed to, but...so what? Society still calls it a marriage, the trappings persist and to leave one marriage just to join another that could also go bad in some other way... Why? What for? The main reason I hear form those refusing an open marriage is that they viscerally want their spouse to be their lover. For such people, sure. If this is deep unshakable emotional must? Yeah, divorce is all there is. There are also devoutly Christian couples who wish to keep their holy matrimonial bond intact no matter what compromises must be made, whether it is eternal celibacy, or having a concubine just as Jacob, David, Solomon, and Isaac did. Such Christian households have no polyandrous foremothers to call upon, but perhaps forgiving an unfaithful wife over and over and over, up to seventy seven times (Matthew 18:22) is preferable to severing the marriage in their eyes. It's not a common or popular approach currently, but maybe in time. Yes, in that circumstance you are likely to get a divorce anyway. That was my logic in weighing pros and cons before opening my relationship. To some extent, if I'm honest about it, there were issues lingering from the affair too - she'd gone on a sexual adventure and left me behind, when all I'd wanted if our present sexual connection had been lost was to embark on such an adventure TOGETHER. Or, if she didn't want any, to have an option to have something myself. I weighed that against the downside of CERTAIN divorce - we had already agreed to split and reversed that decision when I agreed to HER pitch. But ... and I'm a practical person, for all intents and purposes an atheist ... I felt the cost of the open relationship exceeded the benefit. WHY? It had little to do with how society views it. It was about the reasons why sex wasn't happening, and (likely no coincidence) the reasons why the open relationship was unfolding in a manner as to take the hardest possible way to do it. The reason the open relationship was hard was likely the same reason the sex wasn't happening - because she didn't want to be married to me, and I'd been wearing the face of her jailor for over a decade by then. Forget the marriage for a moment and look at the relationship itself, the place you come home to and live. There was a point once I realized all this - that there is no way to regain an attraction once contempt and disgust set in - that I didn't want to spend another second sleeping beside her. I could barely look at this person who resented me so much, and for so long. I sometimes sat on my front porch step for a long time before going in to face her. And then I thought, what if this now is how she felt for the past 5 years? Maybe she'd think she was the hero in lasting that long, and having her affair, and in doing everything she did - and somehow I was the villain in making it not good enough. It's just awful. And yet, outside of that relationship, I had wonderful experiences and a positive, loving, intimate relationship with my paramour, where I felt cherished and like I belonged. Once or twice a month, and every day talking with her. I learned I can have relationships and was attractive and good at things I thought I wasn't. I had an adventurous sex life with a stunningly attractive woman. I learned that from other people. But at home, I felt like shit. So what I learned from all this was you can open the relationship and have sex in your life, if you are lucky and work on yourself, but that it doesn't solve the problem of the marriage. Most of the time it was shining a spotlight on how awful it was. Not much to do with society's view, which was another layer on top of that.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 16, 2023 11:06:22 GMT -5
Over on Dad Starting Over, the red pill types are overtly hostile to poly. I pointed out that divorce produces all the same results they say about Poly and it's not as though you cannot divorce after opening up. IF poly works, why divorce? It baffles me, not just the closed-mindedness, but the inability to even grasp the cold logic. Divorce may appear at the same rate in non-monogamous relationships as monogamous ones, but the problem I have in the context of a sexually-averse marriage is that it does not solve the problem of the marriage. I may live in a home with a leaky roof. I can go on a vacation and for a time I will stay in a hotel and not have to contend with my leaky roof. But then I will come home again, and my roof will still be leaky. Likewise, I may find romance, passion, sexual expression outside of my marriage, but when I return home I'm going to live day to day in a household that's devoid of those things, and that likely has intense latent resentment in it sufficient for my partner to override her own libido. That's not a neutral feeling - it's corrosive to the soul. And it's not *just* sex that's lacking. It's whole set of connections and feeling of affinity upstream that creates a condition for sex to happen.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 16, 2023 10:48:01 GMT -5
That's quite unusual for someone to have an about-face like that out of the blue. You mentioned a few things going on in her life, including a renewed interest in fitness. Is there anyone new in her life who she has to associate with frequently? Any change in her attentiveness to her phone - the amount of time she spends on it? Any change with respect to her sense of privacy, regarding her phone or her time? Does she slip anyone into her mentions more than before, or is anyone new popping up on her social media, liking her posts? Does she go out more now than she did? Any changes - particularly with weekly social commitments?
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 16, 2023 8:28:35 GMT -5
Thank you! This is all very eye opening. I am really afraid of the answer to the question : Do you want to be married. I know he will say that he does want to be married, but I don’t know if he will mean it. This is all just such a shitty situation, one that I would have never imagined for myself. How long before you got divorced? Did you wife want to not be married? Have you met someone else? Ugh. I just feel so lost. Well, I had a 13-year marriage with kids, that started just as yours did. Sex took a dive after the wedding, starting on the wedding night, then when we moved cities, then again with pregnancy and then a tot. It flatlined with the second pregnancy and eventually she had an affair while we were in marriage counselling. In the death throes after the affair and a failed reconciliation (she pined for him for a year), we tried 3-4 years of various kinds of open relationship, which she sabotaged as well - seemingly deliberately trying to make the worst choices within that format to maximize pain and discomfort. And across the latter 4 years, alcohol started becoming a concern. You can go through all that - and I suppose the bright side for me is that I can say with confidence that I tried everything I can think of including changing myself and changing what a marriage is. It still won't work if your partner doesn't want to be married to you. I don't think I got a lot out of that trade. I wish I'd called it quits or been able to to when the affair happened when the kids were young. Post marriage and even in the open relationship part, I met all kinds of women - some of them very nice. I was a prolific dater, did well (later on) and learned new things with each relationship. Today, some 8 years after her physically separating - the kids are grown and we are selling the house we mutually own, and are splitting out our finances. We had a "close separation" for a number of years to save on costs and to help the kids. (She lived in a place up the street and for half the week had access to the house to be their mom). I have a partner I love very much and have been together with her for several years. I moved in with her and we hope to get married. We are living a married lifestyle now.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 13, 2023 12:25:54 GMT -5
My husband (M42) and I (F30) have been together for 6 years, married for 2. The year we got engaged our sex stopped [...]So then I tried to initiate and there was always an excuse, headache, too stressed (he works in why could be considered an emotionalaly draining profession). he had an “emotional relationship” with a younger girl who he shared “only” a kiss with. [...] 1. Could this just be a rut? Does it get better? Any tips on where to start? 2. Could I be the problem? 3. What causes a man to not want to be intimate after a baby? 1. A rut? No. Sex dropped when you got engaged, and then again when you had a baby. Think about when you bought a house or moved as well. All of those are external markers of investment in the relationship. It's most likely is he did not want to get married to you or wasn't ready. Having sex with you would emblemize the trapped feeling he has. This pattern tracks closely with what happened in my marriage. Clearly if he had an affair (another emblem of escape), he has a libido and a capacity to attach it to a romantic investment in a person. 2. Could you be the problem? Impossible to know - nobody is perfect, but it sounds like there is a before and after centered on the engagement. What changed was likely the engagement. This doesn't mean he doesn't love you, per se. You don't get married to everyone you love. Could his job be the problem? Unlikely - it's just as legitimate a response for someone in a stressful situation or job to WANT MORE sex with his partner - as something wonderful and free and replenishing. Look, you are in the same marriage and household as him, and you want sex. 3. Baby? Man? I don't think it's all that helpful to focus on gender and baby. There are all kinds of men who want sex with their wives after they have a baby, and are denied. I think it's more likely helpful to look at what having a baby represents in your relationship and with his life. And also, obviously, you mentioned yourself - sex went off before the baby arrived. The decline started with engagement. You two are pretty young, so I don't want this to sound hopeless - but I think this really is fixed around whether or not he wants to be married (to you, or at all). Lots of people have a wedding, but after those weddings, not all partners actually JOIN THE MARRIAGE. As I explained to people who asked about my divorce, it's very hard to be married to a single woman. It sounds like you are married to a single man. Like he has not actually joined the marriage, and maybe is fighting it or sabotaging it in different ways, rather than leaning into it. How does that hit you.
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