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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 7, 2020 16:58:53 GMT -5
A gentle observation: I think many of us on this forum beat ourselves up FAR too much for outsourcing, having affairs, having sex or falling in love after a decade or two of being in SM/roommate situations. Agreed to a large degree, but not totally. It is absolutely reasonable to expect that a consequence should and must follow from such a drastic thing as ending physical and sexual intimate expression within the context of an intimate, married relationship. Indeed, though I take the larger view that includes both parties in the relationship, since clearly one of them does not see the other as a sexual partner any longer. It's a mutual dilemma. In the case of most of the people here, we have had to choose between a life with someone who doesn't see us as a sexual partner, while trying to maintain the benefits associated with being in an intimate, romantically invested partnership. In case of the silent partners of everyone here, they have had to choose between a life with someone they don't see as a sexual partner, while trying to maintain the benefits associated with being in an intimate, romantically invested partnership. So before I accept blanket absolution of guilt - at least for that characterization of such a circumstance - I'd want to ask myself, "What would I expect her/him to do?" If she clearly doesn't treat or see me as a sexual partner, what should I expect her to do about that? I agree that this is not helpful nor acceptable. Transactional sex indicates contempt. It doesn't really get to the root of the problem and ends up making things worse. It doesn't ever get to a place where the person granting it actually wants it - and likely makes them dislike and think less of the person accepting it. And it's never really very good sex. Yes, and also maybe they were not courageous enough to deal with what would be the consequence of saying "no" when the moment came, turning a happy moment to tragedy. Maybe they thought they would get on board eventually. I think that might be my situation, along with touches of your reasons. Well, it's a likely result, eventually. From either party. So, ya, it's understandable that this would be one of several possible consequences. Is it better than the others? Fair enough, but what if you aren't attracted to your spouse? I'm not sure who has "the high road" or what the value is in having it, in a marriage. High road, low road: it doesn't change the fundamental dilemma driving your situation and your spouse's. For me, the "high road" is the one who is willing to get to the truth of the situation, name it with complete honesty, and then make an informed choice about how to proceed from there, and whether they wish to participate in whatever will happen next. Having an affair is not an informed choice. Not having sex because your spouse doesn't have sex with you, but remaining married and weathering it out, IS an informed choice. Leaving is a unilateral choice, which you can discuss or not, but only one of you has to make that choice. It will not be a choice for the other. That's a common result in any split, but can be avoided, depending on how each of the couple moves forward with each other - how they approach the split, or their decision to stick. It doesn't strike me as any different though from the title of this thread, " Blanket absolution of guilt for we, the refused." Isn't that exactly what this thread seeks? To work the woe for mileage by appealing to some external justification? Mileage for who? To what end? You'll still be divorced. If you aren't, you still be stuck married to someone who doesn't see you that way. And also, you will have cheated, and what kind of topspin will that put on the separation fallout? It doesn't matter who is right when you are both stuck in a bum deal. It's hard to cash that in with anyone for anything you want. Totally, yes. Also, it can be healthy to approach the situation with an acceptance of what it is, and not necessarily beat up your imperfect spouse either - who is also stuck in an unwinnable dilemma. Acceptance, even forgiveness, if you can muster it - isn't for them. It's for you, to ensure that when you leave this situation that you don't end up still stuck in it emotionally for years and years. There are people who never leave their shitty marriage, even after they've left.
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Post by Handy on Jan 7, 2020 17:17:33 GMT -5
I would accept blanket absolution, but so far no there is no extra marital partner where I could be guilty of doing something requiring absolution.
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Post by nyctos on Jan 7, 2020 21:15:42 GMT -5
I would accept blanket absolution, but so far no extra marital partner where I could be guilty of doing something requiring absolution. It can be tough to find a suitable partner. It is for me even though my wife essentially gave me permission as long as I don't spend any money ( yeah, right....). The one I did have was several years ago, while on a business trip, and regrettably ended with the trip (one week). It's too far to go casually. It also happened almost entirely accidentally.
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Post by solodriver on Jan 7, 2020 21:17:13 GMT -5
Yes, I'll accept mine in advance, because the opportunity hasn't happened to me.
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Post by Handy on Jan 8, 2020 0:07:45 GMT -5
nyctos It's too far to go casually.Yes, distance seems like an issue for me. Although I know of women that are widowed but all seem to be adverse to a married man.
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Post by carl on Jan 8, 2020 14:27:44 GMT -5
I think that the feeling of guilt is maybe more like the feeling that you are making a mistake that will land you in trouble. If I outsourced I wouldn’t feel guilty because I know for certain my wife doesn’t want sex and I would rise above any trouble knowing that. I find it easy not to get blamed once I know and face the truth. Only my ignorance ever made me nervous confused and frightened. Never mind. My thoughts on outsourcing would largely be with the other party. For me I would personally be conscious of that. Maybe good friends would be a decent compromise and a more stable situation.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 8, 2020 16:33:58 GMT -5
Yes, I'll accept mine in advance, because the opportunity hasn't happened to me. Is the thinking that an affair is some kind of lottery ticket that gets someone out of where they are, if only people can give themselves permission? The affairs I've witnessed or participated in willingly or unwillingly, have often struck me as volatile temporary stop gaps, like kicking an explosive can a little farther down a road. Marriage is a long game. The longest possible. If an angel flew down from on high and granted blanket absolution for an affair, what's the long game with that approach? Is it "bide time until the kids are old enough and on their own?" How long will an affair last, on average? What is the risk of a discovery across that span of time (and past it, because it can be discovered after the fact). Does any of this eventually arrive a destination that's any different from the present one?
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Post by carl on Jan 8, 2020 17:21:39 GMT -5
I think it depends on the situation and the refuser. I believe some situations are better dealt with by staying and outsourcing and other situations by leaving and starting a fresh. Maybe doesn’t depend so much on the individual who is in the situation as much as the situation itself.
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Post by baza on Jan 9, 2020 1:14:29 GMT -5
I think it depends on the situation and the refuser. I believe some situations are better dealt with by staying and outsourcing and other situations by leaving and starting a fresh. Maybe doesn’t depend so much on the individual who is in the situation as much as the situation itself. It's probably a bit of each - but in particular an individuals perception. Example - my personal situation (from three different perspectives) (a) - I was in my situation and eventually (after 30 odd years) it became a dealbreaker and I left. (b) - Had you Brother carl been in my situation, you may have thought "fuck this" and got out earlier, say at 15 years. (c) - Someone else in my exact same situation may conclude - "it ain't that bad" and may well still be in the situation. Same situation, 3 different views of it.
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Post by saarinista on Jan 14, 2020 17:50:55 GMT -5
Folks, to be clear, I am merely suggesting that people not waste time berating themselves if they have an affair.
I suggest that not because I think affairs are necessarily a good idea, nor anything to try out casually for they can go badly wrong.
I suggest not beating yourself up because it won't help. It will make you feel more powerless, like a horrible person, and perhaps keep you more stuck in a bad situation.
The best thing to do IMHO if you do get involved with extramarital sex, whether it's an unadvisedly casual one-nighter or a thing where you fall madly in love with someone else, is to deal with the situation head on without labeling yourself a horrible person who deserves eternal condemnation for being a fallible human.
I'm not suggesting you use self forgiveness as a means of avoiding making a more permanent, probably more ethical decision about the fate of your sexless marriage going forward.
I'm suggesting we accept that if we outsource-whether once or many times-we not let self guilt destroy our self esteem. That will not help anyone. I'm suggesting we act consciously and just honor ourselves when we live up to our highest standards and when we fail.
Everyone is imperfect. Many of us have spouses who are quite uncaring about how they have treated us. Of course, I've not been a perfect wife, either, and frankly own that I probably should not have married my spouse, had I had perfect foresight. He acknowledges the same. But here we are, 20 years later, and we've talked and had conversations and counseling and he still is trying to get into the mood. I have tried in the past to initiate, but he's "not ready."
I really would prefer just to be friends with my husband, I'm almost certain, but I'm not 100 sure. However, after so many years without any sex, the love I feel for him is companionate rather than erotic.
In the meantime, I met a person and did (as I mentioned earlier on this "confessional") have an episode of sexual bliss with a good friend in a similarly sexless marriage. I consider him to be still a cherished friend with whom I communicate frequently. However, we live far apart. So right now, future sins may or may not be committed.
Both FWB and I are unsure about what to do. Until recently, we were pretty determined to gut out our marriages despite our lack of fulfillment. Now, we're not sure, but there are very good reasons neither of us have divorced. For most of us, it's a huge step. I'm not sure what will happen, but I'm thinking about it very earnestly. Meanwhile, distance is keeping us from physical interaction.
The point is, I could sit here and feel guilty about having sex with someone not my spouse. But that will not do anyone any good. I was raised to suffer and feel guilty. I no longer believe that is helpful.
My whole life, I've felt less than, unworthy, unloveable and that I deserved very little respect basically for being on earth. I was raised to take responsibility for other people's mistakes. If I make mistakes, I was raised to believe in a God who was sitting in heaven keeping track of my offenses. I was brought up to believe that I might burn in hell if I screwed up enough. Guilt and fear were my constant companions. But that's not what I believe any longer. Sure, I try to be ethical, but I did what I did after lots of thought and discussion and certainly didn't do it lightly. I don't know what the future holds, but I'm trying to be considerate of the needs of everyone involved now, including my own.
Action is helpful. So is forgiveness of self and of others. That's what I'm proposing.
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Post by baza on Jan 14, 2020 18:30:01 GMT -5
Must admit that back in the day when this scenario applied to me, I didn't feel the least bit guilty about it. So I didn't really need anyone's forgiveness or absolution about it. It happened, I owned my part in it, it wasn't a moral issue for me, it was a choice. Maybe I was just "lucky" in that regard. None the less, I get where you are coming from Sister saarinista .... and I think "self forgiveness" is probably way harder to do than forgiving other people.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 15, 2020 4:08:31 GMT -5
You need to look out for yourself. For those of us that have suffered through long term rejection, I see it as immoral for someone to pressure us to remain unfulfilled.
Some people want you to fit into their box. Don't be afraid to shove that box up their ass.
For what it is worth, I think at some point, you need to at least establish a don't ask don't tell policy. Tell them you are not happy, and tell them what you want, and ask them if you went outside the relationship to get it would they want to know. If DADT won't work for them, then the next part of "the talk" is in order, where you clearly state what you want, and that divorce is preferable to not getting what you want.
I have an old mountain biking friend, 74 years young, who has an open marriage. His wife has aged differently, and no longer wants sex, but loves his companionship. She has told him to go get it elsewhere, and he has. Sex outside marriage does not have to be a problem. Sometimes, it is the solution.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 15, 2020 13:41:53 GMT -5
For what it is worth, I think at some point, you need to at least establish a don't ask don't tell policy. Tell them you are not happy, and tell them what you want, and ask them if you went outside the relationship to get it would they want to know. If DADT won't work for them, then the next part of "the talk" is in order, where you clearly state what you want, and that divorce is preferable to not getting what you want. A "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy is like buying a new house with a credit card. Sure, you get the keys and can move in, but you are going to pay for it still, with interest. Does anyone really think that when their spouse, alerted to the possibility of dalliance, is going to be totally cool about it when they accidentally or deliberately find out? What happens when you break up with your lover, and they are pissed at you? Or, due to THEIR indiscretion in their own household - their spouse contacts yours? That's what I did, when Mrs Apocrypha took her love to town. If everybody is really so chill about it and feels they can manage themselves accordingly, then why not (metaphorically) pay cash instead of credit, and let them know right away when your date is, when it's about to happen? Sit them down and all have a glass of wine together. Truly open marriages tend to do that, because if you can't sit down and enjoy a glass of wine or a coffee with the person who is boffing your spouse, then you probably really are not ok with it, and will treat it the same as cheating regardless of whatever theoretical arrangement you had. The morality etc - not my concern. I'm looking at straight practicality here because I've seen it blow up, with totally predictable results.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 15, 2020 17:29:18 GMT -5
I'm not by any means saying DADT is an ideal situation. It's just a set of ways to cope. It could be that the refuser understands your needs and allows you to outsource but does not want to know. Or, it could be that the refuser knows they cannot stop you and they don't want to know. In idgaf96's situation, the latter applies. The marriage is for the benefit of the children. Her husband tolerates DADT not because that is what he wants, but because every other alternative is worse for him. I have another friend, in his 70's, who is still very verile but his wife has lost interest. She has asked him to get it elsewhere, but enjoys their time together and her lifestyle. She just does not care to know, but, most importantly, does not want to suffer embarrassment from his outsourcing. There are most certainly volatile examples. I even know of one couple where the husband got verbally abusive after he told his wife to outsource because he wasn't interested, then she did as he asked quite successfully. I do not know how that story panned out, but we can all guess where it was going. Under none of these cases, would I feel a bit of remorse if I was the one outsourcing, but I would certainly regret not outsourcing.
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Post by saarinista on Jan 16, 2020 19:02:53 GMT -5
Thank you, ironhamster. I agree that open marriage or DADT are viable solutions for some and perhaps could be for me. I've tiptoed around the subject, but haven't gotten 100% frank or total clearance yet. Or maybe I have gotten clearance and I don't know it. DH occasionally dangles a reset, but I don't want it any more. Does that make me a counterrefuser if I don't push for a reset but pursue don't ask don't tell? Oh well, guess I should forgive myself, right?
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