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Post by saarinista on Dec 30, 2019 13:16:21 GMT -5
A gentle observation: I think many of us on this forum beat ourselves up FAR too much for outsourcing, having affairs, having sex or falling in love after a decade or two of being in SM/roommate situations.
It's hard enough to be in a sexful (?) marriage, let alone a sexless one.
But if you're married and have taken along the expectations, responsibilities and duties marriage encompasses, and THEN on top of that, find yourself suddenly restricted from having sex? That's a lot of stress. And a major bummer.
Moreover, it seems many spouses are quite hateful about the manner by which they withhold sex. Sexual extortion, as it were. Chore play. Using God as the reason they are shunning a spouse. Trading vacations for blow jobs. Cars for PIV. It's disgusting, frankly.
Then there are the marriages where perhaps the extortion took place BEFORE the marriage. Women are more often guilty of this, i think. Too many have sex 1.) only to get him to marry them 2.) when they never really loved him in the first place but wanted a baby, or 3.) they did what they felt was required to snag a meal ticket.
As far as I'm concerned, sex outside of a sexless marriage is quite understandable. And when the refuser spouse finds out about it and tries to take the high road? I think they have little to stand on, frankly. If you refuse to take care of your spouse sexually, you shouldn't be surprised, hurt or angry if they seek affection elsewhere.
Of course, refusers, being who they are, probably AREN'T surprised. But they often try to work their woes for even more mileage. Money? Sole affection of the children? Moral approbation? The "right" to publicly lambaste the spouse who goes outside the marriage? Might as well pile on, eh?
Of course not every sexually refusing spouse is nasty about their refusing. Some are mentally or physically ill. Some may be asexual. Some may have married in good faith, but one or both parties may have changed significantly in their world views since and may just not feel close enough emotionally to their spouse to be sexual. And some mqy just fall out of love for who knows why.
Regardless, if your spouse refuses you for years and refuses to do anything about changing the deal, I hereby absolve you of any guilt for getting your needs met.
Is outsourcing a great long term solution? Meh, probably not. But this is not a perfect world. Please do not beat yourself up for being imperfect, and do not let your refuser beat you up for that either.
I'm glad I got that off my chest.
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Post by solodriver on Dec 30, 2019 16:10:04 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing that saarinsta. That was beautiful and I've written that down in my SM journal to remind me, especially the last part. This was a great message especially as we all begin another year. A lot of us are still caterpillars trying to transform within the cocoon of the SM and transform into butterflies to be free, live, love and be loved again.
That's where I see myself right now as I struggle to get the finances in shape to make my escape and be able to live and support myself.
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Post by mr.jones on Dec 30, 2019 16:57:39 GMT -5
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 30, 2019 17:34:22 GMT -5
saarinista, I used to be a very black-and-white guy when it came to “infidelity”, but this community has made me appreciate the validity of the option when a marriage is sexless. Logical, even. At the same time, I also see the complete lack of tolerance by outsiders, and this reminds me of the potential backlash that can occur if it comes to light. Even forums that are sexually extremely open-minded frown upon it. (I imagine, because they assume the marriage is sexful.) I guess my point is... be cautious. Our community is tolerant, but elsewhere you’d be assumed to be the Bad Guy. A lot of people can’t fathom the idea of a sexless relationship, and some busy bodies will think it's their moral duty to expose you.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 30, 2019 17:41:26 GMT -5
Boy, that article nails a bunch of points on the head. Sounds like somebody with first-hand experience...
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Post by Handy on Dec 30, 2019 18:18:13 GMT -5
saarinista Regardless, if your spouse refuses you for years and refuses to do anything about changing the deal, I hereby absolve you of any guilt for getting your needs met.WOW, I didn't even need to go the confession booth or what ever it is called. Saarinista I agree with you but other forums like "Talk About Marriage" mostly advise getting the divorce first. IOW, quit the job (marriage) before getting another job. I once took a 2 week vacation to work at a new job a week to see if I liked it. At the end of the first week I quit the old job. OK so I gave a 1 week notice instead of the supposed customary 2 week notice. To me what I did was more fair than notifying an employee at 4 PM to clear out their things before 5 PM because this was his or her last day.
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Post by solodriver on Dec 30, 2019 19:12:45 GMT -5
This is outstanding information and I would encourage you to post this under "Resources" section.
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Post by lessingham on Dec 31, 2019 11:16:29 GMT -5
Thank you, I will feel absolved for 2020,not more sinned against than sinning
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Post by flashjohn on Dec 31, 2019 13:59:53 GMT -5
Very nice post. It is just so sad that so few people understand this.
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Post by ironhamster on Dec 31, 2019 15:25:45 GMT -5
Five years ago, I would have been very judgmental about how I now live my life. I'm pretty guilt free about all of it.
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Post by saarinista on Dec 31, 2019 16:05:14 GMT -5
Guilt is an absolutely useless emotion, IMHO.
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 31, 2019 20:26:41 GMT -5
A gentle observation: I think many of us on this forum beat ourselves up FAR too much for outsourcing, having affairs, having sex or falling in love after a decade or two of being in SM/roommate situations.I told my wife I was dating with the intent of taking a lover. Then I accidentally neglected her (phoned in her birthday). Spent a year rethinking what "love, honor, and cherish" meant and when she brought up the subject last month I admitted I'd planned to start dating again in January. She's had sex with me twice since then. She keeps hissing "divorce" through her teeth, but what does she say when people ask "why?" What if those same people get my side of the story? I don't know if she's thought that through, but if she insists on divorce, I'll bring it up for her to think about. Friend: "Why did you divorce?" Me: "I wanted more sex. And when I got more, she divorced me." Friend: "How could you!" Me: "I told her about it in advance. I didn't feel obligated to put up with less than once a month." Friend: "Once a...." Me: "Month." Friend: <blink, blink> Me: "Google 'sex ten times a year'. Go ahead. I'll wait." I'd like to suggest a higher level of absolution. An affair gives a spouse two reasons to be upset. Betrayal of trust is a powerful one. They starved you of physical affection, that's on them. You let them believe they are in a faithful marriage? That's on you. Just own up and take the burden off their shoulders. They may even be happier when you're done. Europeans do it all the time. In my case, my wife has suddenly taken measures to engage me physically. It'd be a bloody miracle if it lasts, but I'm certainly game. If I'd just had an affair, she'd have had no chance to claim "If only I'd known!" She could tell herself I was the bad guy. I still am, but less so. I'm just a horn dog. Not a lying, sneaky, cheating horn dog. YMMV.
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Post by saarinista on Jan 1, 2020 0:13:40 GMT -5
Please note: I am not ENCOURAGING anyone to seek extramarital sex while married.
I am merely saying, don't beat yourself up IF you have it. Or if you want to have it or fantasize about having it.
We are HUMANS with perfectly reasonable human, sexual needs who are in the difficult, painful position of not having a convenient way to fulfill our needs. Our spouses have left us high and dry with no easy way to express our sexuality, sometimes for decades.
For whatever reasons, we've stayed married despite the numbness, sadness and despair we feel, sometimes for decades.
Since we are human, we're not perfect. Those of us who have remained involuntarily celibate may pat ourselves on the back for superior self control. Our spouses and society likely will NOT do so.
On the other hand, those of us who have allowed ourselves to connect sexually with non-spouses while married may get plenty of criticism from others for being humanly sexual. IMHO, those individuals should never have expected perfection of us-especially when our refusers are all too humanly imperfect themselves.
I see no reason for us to pile guilt upon ourselves when others are beating us up already AND when we have suffered in our marriages.
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Post by baza on Jan 1, 2020 18:22:09 GMT -5
I reckon that - as long as you are making a fully informed choice - this is a perfectly valid option.
But it is NOT a choice to go into in a half arsed manner.
This option is as serious as - and often leads to - divorce. And that's how seriously you need to approach it .... in the full knowledge that this option can and does fly off at unpredictable and unforeseen tangents.
So you need to do your due diligence, and be prepared for an outcome of your primary relationship going pear shaped, at speed.
As "an agent of change" this option has a pretty good record in this group. It does tend to drive an ILIASM deal onward to resolution, but it might not be the resolution you had in mind at the time.
And it's not a matter of this option being right or wrong.
It isn't a matter of morals, it is a matter of choices.
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Post by saarinista on Jan 1, 2020 19:15:17 GMT -5
I agree, baza. I'm not encouraging or discouraging outsourcing. Outsourcing can definitely lead to unpleasant consequences. That's for sure. I personally don't think it's a good long term strategy. Heck, breaking the rules just once can get you in serious trouble. Everyone should be aware of that. My point is just that WHATEVER any of us do, I think we should be gentle with ourselves. If we give in and have extramarital sex, and it turns out to be problematic (and it well MAY) I say, just deal with the problems created. Don't add to the pain by also labeling yourself as a horrible person. That only leads to depression and confusion IME. Neither should those who choose NOT to oursouce feel "less than," or that they need to do it to be desirable, or whatever. I personally would not recommend making outsourcing a goal. The best way, IMHO to handle a SM is to deal with the problems head-on and make a firm decision about whether to stay or leave. For whatever reason, some of us slip into the middle option. Some will label that a sin. Some will make it legally actionable. Some will call it a moral failing. Some believe outsourcing is all of those things. But it does no good to judge or condemn. At least not to me. No one is perfect.
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