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Post by choosinghappy on Mar 3, 2018 12:29:44 GMT -5
I'm one of the "lucky"(?) ones whose refuser spouse agreed to go to therapy once he realized if he didn't do something to try to change, our marriage would be over. It's now been almost 9 months since he went back and very little has changed. And nothing has changed sexually - there has been zero sexual touch during this time.
[Backstory: My H was sexually abused as a child and he says it is trauma from that which causes him to be averse to all touch, sexual or otherwise. This did not come out until 10 years into our relationship and he is now in therapy with his personal therapist as well as an intensive therapy program for PTSD. He attends each approximately twice a month.]
For those of you whose spouses went/go to individual counseling to help "fix" your SM, how involved were you? Did/does your spouse talk with you about it at all? Does s/he bring you in to sessions sometimes? Did you discuss some sort of measurable benchmarks for progress?
While this therapy is obviously for HIM, I am completely left out of every part of it, even though I am affected heavily. I have asked him questions about it before and he gives me nothing. I have asked if I can come to a session with him and he says "Not yet". I ask if there's anything I can do to help him make progress, etc. and he says "No but thank you, I'll let you know if there is". It's frustrating. I am completely left in the dark and have no idea how to navigate this beyond just sitting on the sidelines waiting.
In the meantime, I have lost desire for him and have lost motivation to try to "fix" this SM. Instead, my energy is going towards making an exit plan. He does not know this and (I assume) is working on himself to get to a place where he can try to work on things in our marriage. I fear that once he's ready for that step, I'll already be one foot out the door.
Does anyone have suggestions for how I can get involved without tipping my hand to him and pretty much saying: "You need to let me in on this shit and we need to start actively working on this NOW or else I'm going to leave you."??
I'm nearing the end of my rope.
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Post by choosinghappy on Mar 3, 2018 12:40:56 GMT -5
I should also mention that we did try couples counseling a few times - summer of 2016 and summer of 2017. The last session we went to together ended in a stalemate of him saying he cannot do touch/sex right now and me saying I will not live a celibate life. Our therapist had no suggestions for us on that front and we all agreed it was best for him to get therapy on his own before trying to work on anything more together.
I wonder if trying to go back to couples counseling just to get him to open up to me about any progress (or lack there-of) in his individual therapy would be worth it?
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Post by flounder on Mar 3, 2018 13:33:48 GMT -5
We are currently doing couples therapy. It’s ok I guess. The therapist is well aware of the elephant in the room. It has largely been avoided so far. She has given us some things to do together. Books we are to fill out about ourselves and exchange for the other to read. Communication exercises. I get frustrated because I feel like we aren’t discussing the lack of sex or intimacy much,but I know this isn’t happening overnight. My wife has a psychiatrist she has seen for years. She says she has discussed our issues with him. I’ve noticed little things here and there that she tries,but overall I’ve not seen much of a difference.
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Post by ballofconfusion on Mar 3, 2018 13:34:46 GMT -5
The therapy is for him. Of necessity, it must be. That means that you do not enter the picture until he has done the necessary work in order to allow him to move forward and begin to take what progress he has made and then apply it to you and your marriage in any meaningful way.
I feel your pain very deeply because I have been there. My divorce will be complete in May, but you may recall that my refuser was also sexually abused as a child and his abuse was not remembered until his abuser died and we had been married for 18 YEARS! It took me four more years before I had an affair and then three more years until I filed for divorce and moved out of the house we shared.
My refuser/husband initially agreed to therapy, but I had to beg and cajole and even found the therapist myself. I called and set up his first appointment. He went for a couple of months and then left because it was too hard and painful for him. This sad scenario repeated itself again two years later. After he discovered my affair, he began therapy in earnest - twice a week. He found the therapist, he made the appointment, and he drove the whole process. Unfortunately, it was definitely too late. He was going to therapy to get me to stay - not to heal himself. He had little interest in that as he had already demonstrated to me repeatedly.
The last round of therapy (which he stopped once I moved out and filed for divorce - proving my point that it had nothing to do with wanting to heal) was intense for him. Like you, I wanted a window into the process and wanted to know what to expect, how to help, benchmarks, etc. It is completely understandable. Sadly, when therapy is begun at such a late stage - I truly do not believe that benchmarks can save the marriage. Further, my refuser also never shared anything with me about the individual sessions - never. Allow me to tell you what he relayed to me. He told me that, according to his therapist, he MIGHT be ABLE to by sexual with me in a few YEARS...YEARS. Benchmarks would not be discussed as the pressure would inhibit his growth in therapy. The first order of business was healing the wounded little boy that he still was - and that was the ONLY thing the therapist had as a goal (rightly so, as hard as that was for me to hear). Further, the therapist told him that he may never WANT to be sexual with me - even if he COULD muster up the ability to do so. The therapy is not to fix your SM. It simply isn't. The therapist is there for HIM. He has to heal. The marriage is secondary at best. It must be that way in order for this kind of therapy to work. Unfortunately, that leaves you with a difficult decision to make.
Let's say you sat in on his therapy and began asking about benchmarks. He freezes up more. He is not ready to discuss sexual things when he is still healing from his abuse. This sort of healing is not something that works in tandem (where he works on himself AND your marriage at the same time). His work comes first. Prepare for YEARS - with no guarantee of "success" as you define it. He may be a bit more whole. He may be able to "function" both emotionally and sexually - but therapy will not morph him into the partner you wish him to be. Physical intimacy will always be fraught with difficulty and a bit of anxiety for him.
You must stop focusing on his therapy and focus on what you need. Ask yourself whether you can live with this another several years first. Next, ask yourself whether you can accept that the best you may hope for in the end is that he is physically and mentally capable of having sex with you when you ask for it. He will not want it - he will be able to fulfill a request in a somewhat limited manner. I had to "marinate" in that for quite some time. I also read some books he gave me for spouses/partners of those who suffered sexual abuse as a child. Once I turned the volume down on the guilt I felt for even contemplating leaving him (after all he was a victim of something horrific) I was more clearly able to discern what I needed and to remember that I matter too. This gets lost in his therapy process - as the focus is solely on him and his healing and the speed with which he is or is not progressing. For this sort of trauma I honestly believe that focus is correct. Sadly, by the time you get to this point, it is not what you want or need. This is why I left him. I had to confront the sad fact that I was not capable of supporting him in his healing process. I felt like a horrible person - sometimes I still do. However, that was reality for me. I was suffering greatly, acting out of character with an affair, showing a terrible marital example to our four "kids," and sinking into depression. As I thought about what the future would be if I stayed married to him, I became more depressed. I was already so resentful of him (rightly or wrongly) that I could no longer give him the love he needed to heal. I was actually beginning to harm him too - in and odd and sad twist. Leaving was, I believe, a gift for both of us.
The bottom line is that you count too. You need to really discern what you can LIVE WITH - both now and in the future - and act accordingly. I wish it was not so painful. I wish I had better "news" and a few "tips" to share with you. However, from my experience you need to completely flip your thinking. You will not get benchmarks and progress for him is not going to be linear. The focus MUST be on him alone for now. His therapist is telling him that I would imagine and that is correct. He has to heal (to the extent possible) over the course of a few years. Next, you two can work together in therapy (probably with a sex therapist according to my husband's therapist he was seeing about the abuse) to begin that process. But, again, he will go up and down, backward and forward - it is not linear. Expect it to be years before you are part of anything regarding this process. I am sorry. That is either something you can be patient with and support from the sidelines or it is not. The decision is completely yours and it is gut wrenching. I will say that there is hope on the "other side." Although not everyone will have the same good fortune, enough people on here have piped in and demonstrated that it is possible to have a fulfilling life and have your emotional and physical needs met in a healthy relationship once you exit your marriage. I didn't count on shamwow when I began posting on this forum, but we found each other and together we are healing - and also living a full and happy life together because we truly love one another. It is possible. But, first things first. You must decide whether you can be there for your husband, support him, be patient and then be a true loving partner for him in whatever form he can accept. You will have to mold yourself to him as he will not be capable of doing that for you. No amount of therapy will change him into something new. Some people can double down, dig in and make the best of it. I was not one of those people because by the time he truly TRIED therapy - I was already trying to figure out how to leave without looking like an awful person. I realized that I was staying because of guilt and not from love. I didn't feel good - but I still knew that I had to go in order to save my own self.
Hugs to you. Perhaps someone here will have better news or a different outcome - but I would doubt it.
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Post by surfergirl on Mar 3, 2018 14:05:52 GMT -5
choosinghappyWe started in couples therapy and switched therapists a lot until he could find one he liked. But they were all saying the same thing-- this is not a couple's problem but his own individual problem that affected the marriage. (Unfortunately, it took months and thousands of dollars to bottom line that. It took a LONG time for people to realize that me being snippy was a side effect of not getting laid for 20 years and getting BLAMED for it---see the 1,000 excuses thread. My husband wouldn't fuck me on our wedding night and I'm unsure what counts on the honeymoon. I have no more defense than that.) My husband has Dismissive Avoidant attachment on a grand scale. No sexual abuse. I've reset the divorce date several times because my #1 condition was for him to stay in therapy. He refused to even tell me when he DID go, let alone when he quit and/or restarted. He refuses to tell me if/when he goes, let alone the content. See above. I've asked. He makes promises. Then the conversation never happens. I ask again. Lather. Rinse. Repeat..... Yes, but again, this is pointless. If your/my husband refuses to talk about therapy, they will refuse to acknowledge or agree to benchmarks. I agreed to not pressure about sex for six months, but then I expected us to ease into twice a week. That six months has come and gone. I've refiled divorce papers, etc., etc., etc. I'm two years into waiting around with my husband's therapy. Look at my life and ask yourself if you have the patience for that. Me? I do not. Because let's just say these guys "heal"-- that only means they've learned to tolerate you/me. I've never seen anyone pop out healthy. I am the victim of some pretty extreme childhood abuse. A long time ago, I realized that there were effects to that, but I was responsible for my response/wiring. I don't get a free pass to hurt other people just because I've been hurt. Unfortunately, for both our husbands, they don't give a flying fuck. That is not abuse effects, that's just SELFISH. Selfish people make bad marriage partners and therapy doesn't fix that.
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Post by surfergirl on Mar 3, 2018 14:16:19 GMT -5
Here's an example of what someone who is doing their work and has an honest longing for the marriage might say: " choosinghappy , I'm so sorry I put us in this place in our marriage. I love you. And I want to save this thing. I'm going to do my work and stay in therapy. I am so traumatized by what happened to me that I'm not ready to talk about it. But I realize that leaves you in a horrible place. I'm going to sign a disclosure with my therapist so that she can update you on my progress until I get to a place that I can do it myself. I'm in this to heal me and to heal us. I want us. I am not quitting. What else do you need from me while I'm doing this very painful work? I understand that this must be so hard on you, too. But I'm not going to abandon you while I'm recovering. Tell me how to be a good husband to you, to communicate how much I love you in a way that you can understand? I see here that I'm not the only one who is hurting. But I want to recover together, to do this messy life together....."
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 3, 2018 15:40:01 GMT -5
It’s important to realize that individual therapy isn’t designed or meant to help people heal and fix their marriages or become the type of person their spouse wants or needs. It’s designed to help people heal themselves and become comfortable with who they are. Individual therapy for a sexual avoider may help them become comfortable with being a person who doesn't want sex.
This is why if one is unhappily married to a refuser it is wise to get therapy for yourself so you can focus on your own needs and choices.
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Post by mypaintbrushes on Mar 3, 2018 16:06:21 GMT -5
Mine went to therapy for about two years, and my understanding the whole time was that he was talking about the issues between him and me that caused me to want to move out in 2015… A couple months ago, he announced to me that he had quit therapy because, according to him, he had “resolved “his issues… Then he went on to explain that he had side of the therapist, not to discuss our relationship, but rather to discuss an incident that happened at the school he taught it at the time, to the teacher in a classroom next-door to him .
Has anything changed in our relationship? Not too sure… He has made some very incremental changes in how he relates to me on the one hand, but on the other, when he is tired or under stress, he reverts right back to the same habits as always.
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Post by baza on Mar 3, 2018 18:18:15 GMT -5
It is your spouses job to sort their own shit out. It is YOUR job to sort YOUR shit out.
And, it is NOT obligatory that your spouse even tries to sort their shit out. Same for you. You don't HAVE to do so.
You can support your spouse in their efforts (if they are making any) to sort their shit out. Your spouse can support you in your efforts (if you are making any) to sort your shit out.
Joint therapy ?? A fine thing potentially - PRESUPPOSING - that you and your spouse are pretty well advanced in your individual shit sorting, and are thus bringing the best possible versions of yourself to the joint table....and to dig down to the truth.
But if you, your spouse, or jointly going in to therapy to "save your marriage" then you've got it all wrong. The mission is, to uncover your truth. A consequence of finding that truth may possibly be getting your marriage back on track, or could just as easily reveal that in truth your marriage is fucked.
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Post by choosinghappy on Mar 3, 2018 18:52:43 GMT -5
Here's an example of what someone who is doing their work and has an honest longing for the marriage might say: " choosinghappy , I'm so sorry I put us in this place in our marriage. I love you. And I want to save this thing. I'm going to do my work and stay in therapy. I am so traumatized by what happened to me that I'm not ready to talk about it. But I realize that leaves you in a horrible place. I'm going to sign a disclosure with my therapist so that she can update you on my progress until I get to a place that I can do it myself. I'm in this to heal me and to heal us. I want us. I am not quitting. What else do you need from me while I'm doing this very painful work? I understand that this must be so hard on you, too. But I'm not going to abandon you while I'm recovering. Tell me how to be a good husband to you, to communicate how much I love you in a way that you can understand? I see here that I'm not the only one who is hurting. But I want to recover together, to do this messy life together....." So here's the rub: He has said almost every one of these things to me. What is missing is: "I'm going to sign a disclosure with my therapist so that she can update you on my progress until I get to a place that I can do it myself." and "What else do you need from me...tell me how to be a good husband to you, to communicate how much I love you in a way that you can understand." He truly is a loving and caring husband in all ways he is able to be. He just is incapable of being the kind of lover I want and need and has intimacy issues. And at the moment he is focused on himself only in his therapy (as it should be) and not yet on our marriage. But my issue is that I have no idea when or IF we will get to a point where he IS able to work on our marriage. I am left in the dark when it comes to that. And as ballofconfusion said, this process is not linear - it's possible he doesn't even know when or if he'll be able to get to a point where he can try to work on intimacy and sex. I don't want to waste precious years waiting around and supporting him still without getting my needs met, just to possibly discover that it can't be salvaged anyway.
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Post by choosinghappy on Mar 3, 2018 18:57:25 GMT -5
It’s important to realize that individual therapy isn’t designed or meant to help people heal and fix their marriages or become the type of person their spouse wants or needs. It’s designed to help people heal themselves and become comfortable with who they are. Individual therapy for a sexual avoider may help them become comfortable with being a person who doesn't want sex. This is why if one is unhappily married to a refuser it is wise to get therapy for yourself so you can focus on your own needs and choices. Thanks northstarmom. I agree that his therapy is to help him. My hope is exactly what you stated: that he will discover who he truly is, what he is capable of in our marriage, and then be able to relay that to me. I can then use that information to make a decision. But being completely in the dark on whether he is making any "progress", whether he will even get to a point where we can try to work on things together, and if so, when that will be, and what it will look like, is becoming untenable for me. I am certainly focusing on my own needs and choices. And it is widening the gap between myself and my H. What I don't want is to have the gap widen so much while he's working on himself that when (IF) he gets to a point where he is able to work on things, I am too far gone.
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Post by choosinghappy on Mar 3, 2018 19:00:06 GMT -5
Mine went to therapy for about two years, and my understanding the whole time was that he was talking about the issues between him and me that caused me to want to move out in 2015… A couple months ago, he announced to me that he had quit therapy because, according to him, he had “resolved “his issues… Then he went on to explain that he had side of the therapist, not to discuss our relationship, but rather to discuss an incident that happened at the school he taught it at the time, to the teacher in a classroom next-door to him . And this is what I'm a tad concerned about: That in his eternal therapy my H is not even addressing any issues that would make a difference in our marriage. I get that individual therapy is for HIM but time is ticking on whether or not I will still be willing to work on things with him once he is finally ready to. This is why I want to get involved in SOME way to know if there is hope here or not.
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Post by choosinghappy on Mar 3, 2018 19:10:54 GMT -5
It is your spouses job to sort their own shit out. It is YOUR job to sort YOUR shit out. And, it is NOT obligatory that your spouse even tries to sort their shit out. Same for you. You don't HAVE to do so. You can support your spouse in their efforts (if they are making any) to sort their shit out. Your spouse can support you in your efforts (if you are making any) to sort your shit out. Joint therapy ?? A fine thing potentially - PRESUPPOSING - that you and your spouse are pretty well advanced in your individual shit sorting, and are thus bringing the best possible versions of yourself to the joint table....and to dig down to the truth. But if you, your spouse, or jointly going in to therapy to "save your marriage" then you've got it all wrong. The mission is, to uncover your truth. A consequence of finding that truth may possibly be getting your marriage back on track, or could just as easily reveal that in truth your marriage is fucked. I agree with all of this baza. My concerns in this are: -Is he truly working on "uncovering his truth"? -If so, what kind of effect, if any, will it have on our marriage? -How can I support him in his efforts to sort his shit out if he doesn't let me in? -If he continues to not let me in and I continue working towards exiting, will I even be capable of trying to see if our marriage can get back on track once he is ready to try? It is hard for me to say that none of these things should matter and I should just focus on sorting my OWN shit out. I've got my shit pretty well sorted out. But the big gaping hole here is what he is capable of in our marriage. I don't want to pull the plug until I know that, OR, until I can't take it any longer. Sadly, the latter seems to be coming more quickly than the former and this is my desperate attempt to get any ideas of how I could find out what he is capable of in our marriage as soon as possible before I pass the point of no return in my thinking.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 3, 2018 19:12:17 GMT -5
The baby gets thrown out with the bathwater when it comes to therapy. I really don't understand it. How can a person go to therapy to be healed and totally ignore marriage, spouse, family, or relatives? Isn't that a vast part of the person? Does your husbands career get treated the same way? Does his behavior and attitude at work all get a free pass? Doesn't that make up a lot of who he is?
I'm betting his career doesn't get ignored, the therapist wants to be paid!
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Post by surfergirl on Mar 3, 2018 19:17:40 GMT -5
choosinghappyGood responses to our feedback. Sounds like you have some decisions to make. We are telling you the odds. It’s up to you whether or not you roll the dice. Only you can decide. Money is a valid reason to stay. I did the same thing. No judgement. Now that I’m financially independent, I’m making a different decision. Nobody here can make that for you. I don’t think I would’ve filed if I wasn’t well-set. If I have any regrets, it’s that I waited until year 20 to outsource and detach.
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