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Post by choosinghappy on Nov 12, 2017 13:41:06 GMT -5
I've been away from the site for a couple/few months and in that time my H has gone back to therapy to confront his issues stemming from childhood sexual abuse. He sees his regular therapist and (at her suggestion) has also started an intensive therapy program devoted to PTSD from prior abuse. I think all of this is a good sign. While he gets help, I am just remaining supportive and will ask him gently about it every now and then (every couple weeks) with things like: "so how is therapy going?" Sometimes he talks about it a bit, perhaps a revelation he had, or how he currently feels, but more frequently he'll respond with something like: "It's okay. Still going. Next appt is on Tuesday."
He and I have talked about how it will likely be a long process. I suspect it could likely be at least a year(?) before I can be involved in any way. I expressed to him that when he's ready I want to be integrated into the process if possible, basically with a form of exposure therapy. Y'know - the first night we try sitting on the couch together and hold hands for 5 mins. Next night I'll leave my hand on his arm. The next, on his leg and so forth, working up to sexual intimacy. I hadn't realized just how, well, BROKEN he truly was from this until we started talking about the tiny little baby steps we will need to take before we can even get to anything sexual. But he is trying. And so I see my current role as being supportive and remaining hopeful that some progress can be made eventually.
So that was long-winded. My real reason for writing is because I always see on here that people say that if the refuser has agreed to start therapy, the refused must put benchmarks in place or else they could find themselves 10 years down the road with no measurable progress. My question is: How in the world do I do that? I feel like this form of therapy is such an intangible thing - there isn't linear progress from A to B, with him "getting better" a little each time. It could be months and months of him just experiencing painful memories. And while that may work out to be progress for him in the end, it does nothing to help our SM. There are very few measurable milestones I feel I can attach to this kind of intensive PTSD therapy.
Any suggestions?
If you put benchmarks and timelines in place for your refuser's therapy/progress, what were they specifically? Did you find yourself sticking to them or moving the goalposts?
YES, this SM is painful for me. But I don't want to be insensitive to the pain he is also experiencing.
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Post by DryCreek on Nov 12, 2017 14:37:52 GMT -5
choosinghappy, I can't offer specifics, but I can share a perspective... Is there sincere effort and genuine self-motivation, or are they going through the motions because they have to? This is a "sanitary criteria" - meaning, it's a dead deal if these are missing. Then, is progress being made to your satisfaction? This isn't about whether they're improving. It's about whether they're ever likely to meet your minimum acceptable level, and how long that's going to take. This is a very personal thing - what *must* you have to be content (not ecstatic)? If it looks like it'll take a year before he's comfortable kissing sincerely, is that OK? 2 years for scheduled sex; 3 for him to initiate? What if passionate sex will never be attainable? These are arbitrary examples, but what's essential to you?
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 12, 2017 14:40:48 GMT -5
See if this article can be of any help for you. www.psychologytoday.com/blog/resolution-not-conflict/201202/beware-individual-therapy-can-harm-your-marriagePersonally I would feel even more rejected and begin to be even more detached from my spouse if my needs are fully neglected, again, and again, while I was asked to remain 100% giving, giving, giving. Where's any receiving during all this? Where's any hope or a chance of improvement for you. Time to start taking. Even a rescuer eventually needs to be rescued. This article will sound like "you have problems that affect your spouse too". That's something for you to figure out, with help. . But to sit on the side lines and be asked to wallow, and suffer while your spouse gets a "free pass" to continue in his selfish ways as he "figures out what's best for him?". NO. That is not a two way street. You have already been living on a one way street paved with double standards. Time to level the playing field. That means him respecting you and your needs as well. Don't feel selfish at all. Ask to speak with this Councillor together, or seek someone else, while contemplating an exit from the marriage.
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Post by choosinghappy on Nov 12, 2017 15:02:40 GMT -5
choosinghappy , I can't offer specifics, but I can share a perspective... Is there sincere effort and genuine self-motivation, or are they going through the motions because they have to? This is a "sanitary criteria" - meaning, it's a dead deal if these are missing. Then, is progress being made to your satisfaction? This isn't about whether they're improving. It's about whether they're ever likely to meet your minimum acceptable level, and how long that's going to take. This is a very personal thing - what *must* you have to be content (not ecstatic)? If it looks like it'll take a year before he's comfortable kissing sincerely, is that OK? 2 years for scheduled sex; 3 for him to initiate? What if passionate sex will never be attainable? These are arbitrary examples, but what's essential to you? Thanks DryCreek. I have actually given some thought to these questions in the past. My individual therapist had me list out my Desires/Wants when it comes to sex and intimacy with him, my Needs, and my Concerns. I feel like my Needs are quite meager. It's that list that I will need to eventually know if he will be able to meet. I wrote up these lists, told him I had them, and that when he was ready to discuss it with me I'd love to talk about it. That was a couple months ago now so maybe I should broach that topic again. I suspect that in his therapy it would be helpful/necessary for him to know what I need from him and what my specific expectations are in order for him to know if that can ever be realistic or not. When we spoke a couple months ago he still wasn't even in the place to have a platonic discussion about sexual needs. But yes, he is sincere in his pursuit of therapy. For him, the therapy is about helping all areas of his life. He is grossly affected by this former abuse. He needs help and has needed it for a while. My dissatisfaction with our SM was the catalyst to push him to finally get that help even though he was (and still is ) scared to death, but there is a LOT for him to figure out on his own, much of which I suspect has nothing to do with me or our marriage, and that also contributes to the length of time this will take. So as for the long timeline, if I continue to feel that I don't want to divorce him then that timeline will HAVE to be okay, won't it? When it ceases to be okay with me is when I'd need to start an exit plan.
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Post by DryCreek on Nov 12, 2017 15:30:30 GMT -5
I feel like my Needs are quite meager. It's that list that I will need to eventually know if he will be able to meet. I wrote up these lists, told him I had them, and that when he was ready to discuss it with me I'd love to talk about it. Two cents from an amateur on human psychology... Be damn sure your minimums are truly your minimums, and not a low bar that you think should be achievable for him. As in "If it never gets better than X for the rest of my life, that's really good enough for me to be happy". You might think "if he can achieve X, I can stay and he will continue to improve". But what he will hear is "I only have to attain X". The odds are infinitesmally small of him being motivated to your "stretch goal" beyond X, especially considering the Herculean amount of work he seems to need. It's not unlike many of us for whom the spouse believes that "sex" is all that's needed, even if it's cold, passionless, and clinical. Technically "checking the box" is not what most of us are really after. The emotional connection / participation is far beyond that.
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Post by hopingforachange on Nov 12, 2017 16:24:54 GMT -5
I agree with DryCreek I have been accused in the past of moving the bar, when she didn't understand what is included in the bar.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 12, 2017 17:28:48 GMT -5
“He and I have talked about how it will likely be a long process. I suspect it could likely be at least a year(?) before I can be involved in any way. I expressed to him that when he's ready I want to be integrated into the process if possible, basically with a form of exposure therapy. Y'know - the first night we try sitting on the couch together and hold hands for 5 mins. Next night I'll leave my hand on his arm. The next, on his leg and so forth, working up to sexual intimacy. I hadn't realized just how, well, BROKEN he truly was from this until we started talking about the tiny little baby steps we will need to take before we can even get to anything sexual. But he is trying. And so I see my current role as being supportive and remaining hopeful that some progress can be made eventually.”
Why spend all of that time and effort to attempt to get someone to want to fuck you, to change his very nature, when there literally are thousands of men who wouldn’t be able to stop themselves from sexually desiring you because that feeling jt is so natural to them? Your husband sounds like a possible great platonic friend. It really sounds like it would you’d be throwing away years of both of your lives to try to make him into a completely different type of person. There probably are plenty of asexual women who’d be content even thrilled with who he is now just like there are plenty of heterosexual men who’d view you as their dream woman.
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Post by choosinghappy on Nov 12, 2017 18:13:27 GMT -5
See if this article can be of any help for you. www.psychologytoday.com/blog/resolution-not-conflict/201202/beware-individual-therapy-can-harm-your-marriagePersonally I would feel even more rejected and begin to be even more detached from my spouse if my needs are fully neglected, again, and again, while I was asked to remain 100% giving, giving, giving. Where's any receiving during all this? Where's any hope or a chance of improvement for you. Time to start taking. Even a rescuer eventually needs to be rescued. This article will sound like "you have problems that affect your spouse too". That's something for you to figure out, with help. . But to sit on the side lines and be asked to wallow, and suffer while your spouse gets a "free pass" to continue in his selfish ways as he "figures out what's best for him?". NO. That is a two way street. You have already been living on a one way street paved with double standards. Time to level the playing field. That means him respecting you and your needs as well. Don't feel selfish at all. Ask to speak with this Councillor together, or seek someone else, while contemplating an exit. Thanks greatcoastal. I’m not sure I have an answer for your questions. In some ways I’ve stopped giving giving giving. I no longer attempt or hope to engage in any sort of intimacy with him. Instead I now outsource. I realized it was indeed time for me to start receiving, as you say, and he is currently unable to provide that for me. So I’m getting my needs taken care of elsewhere, both emotionally and physically. He does not know, and if he did he would not approve. But while I am being asked (expected?) to sit on the sidelines for an undisclosed amount of time while he figures himself out (all while having no assurances anything will ever improve), it is unfair and unrealistic to ask or expect me to continue to just be ok with a celibate marriage. I expressed this to him at our last couples counseling session. We came to an impasse that was recognized by all three of us. We have not gone back to counseling together since. In the meantime, he is working on himself, and I am in an emotional affair (that will be turning physical) with a wonderful man who is also in a SM. He is helping me get my needs met while I try to figure out how to proceed with my marriage. I don’t know if this is the right course but for me, right now, it seems to be working.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 12, 2017 22:38:17 GMT -5
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Post by baza on Nov 12, 2017 22:40:25 GMT -5
I think that this outsourcing you are embarking on is likely to hold the key here Sister choosinghappy . It is a perfectly legitimate choice, and although personally I reckon it is a messy strategy, in your case it is likely to be a complete game changer - which might be just the thing to bust your domestic situation wide open. It may well result in a mess - short term at least - but longer term it could force you (and or your spouse) into making choices that you presently are not prepared to make to bring the situation to resolution. Again, seeing a lawyer would be a good idea, as the cheating option raises the likelyhood of divorce by manyfold.
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Post by choosinghappy on Nov 12, 2017 23:46:59 GMT -5
greatcoastal : No. There are elements of dependency, surely, particularly because he is currently the sole breadwinner and I am a stay-at-home mom, which makes things more difficult for me to be truly independent. But I do not consider us codependent. We both have a lot of autonomy, enjoy different hobbies and have some outside friends beyond our couples friends. There is also the fact that he and I are only together about 50% of the time because he is bi-coastal due to his job. In researching codependency I came across this article: www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/features/signs-of-a-codependent-relationship#1- In terms of sex, I obviously do make sacrifices for my partner's happiness without getting much in return. I think that can be said of every one of us who is still in an SM. - I do not feel I am dependent on my H for my self worth and identity. This has been a bit of a personal struggle for me since I stopped working to be at home and I do find it has made his "approval" feel more important to me than it was when I was working but I am not dependent on him for it. - As far as emotional abuse and parental neglect in my younger years, yes that does apply to me but I don't *think* it causes me negative effects in my marriage, although I could be wrong. A quote from the article: "These kids are often taught to subvert their own needs to please a difficult parent, and it sets them up for a long-standing pattern of trying to get love and care from a difficult person" -- it's possible that could be an issue of mine I haven't fully recognized. - I do not feel anxiety as the most common emotion when it comes to my marriage: I feel discontent and sadness. - I do not feel I am enabling his anxiety/unhealthy behaviors (any longer) since I made him understand how important it is for him to go to therapy. As for the article's 3 signs that you might be in a codependent relationship: 1. Are you unable to find satisfaction in your life outside of a specific person? NO 2. Do you recognize unhealthy behaviors in your partner but stay with him or her in spite of them? YES. But I take into consideration that no person is perfect. I know my H's faults and I work with them. 3. Are you giving support to your partner at the cost of your own mental, emotional, and physical health? Tricky question. I suppose yes at the moment, as I support his therapy without receiving what I need in return. However, I am receiving what I need through means other than my H so... tricky.
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Post by james on Nov 13, 2017 4:01:27 GMT -5
Lonelywifey, sorry I responded to your more recent post before reading this one. Clearly you're not going to bail out just yet, I understand that- you are trying an alternative course.
Have you spoken to Venus Erotes about this? I imagine you have, she has the exact same issues as you. What advice has she given?
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Post by choosinghappy on Nov 13, 2017 5:14:51 GMT -5
james When I was more active here months ago VE did reach out due to our similar stories. I should probably refresh my memory on how things went for her. Thanks for the reminder.
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Post by ballofconfusion on Nov 13, 2017 11:12:14 GMT -5
I cannot give you much in the way of specific advice, lonelywifey, but I can tell you a bit about what happened to me in my circumstances.
I left my SM of 25 years in July and we are in the midst of a divorce which will wrap up sometime in the new year. It cannot come fast enough to suit me. If you have read any of my backstory, you will see that my husband was emotionally and sexually abused by his mother. He was always averse to sexual intimacy and said he never knew "why" until a few months after his mother died and he began having flashbacks of the abuse. At that time, he was "relieved" that we had an "answer" for what was "wrong" with him. I was naturally very understanding and supportive - and also quite relieved to finally have answered the "why" of my SM. As you know from reading the stories here, the why matters very little.
I began my quest to help him with renewed vigor and purpose. I contacted our pastor. I contacted therapists and he even agreed to begin regular visits with one of the therapists who specialized in working with men who had been sexually abused. He stopped therapy after a couple of months because it was too "hard." After waiting for many months, he agreed to try therapy again, but wanted a different therapist as he didn't believe he connected well with the last one. Fair enough. I found another therapist, made the initial appointment and off he went. You may be able to guess at this point what happened. After a few months, he once again stopped going to therapy because it was "more traumatic" having to "relive" the abuse.
Lonelywifey - the key takeaway here is that I made the appointments. I drove the process. He was not willing to do so himself because he did not want to get better - didn't want to become healthy. He was quite content with things as they were and was hoping I would be too.
We moved to another state and I expressed to him that I could not live like this forever. I told him that I could not remain in a sexless marriage. He once again stated that he would try therapy. Meanwhile, we had not shared a bed for many months. As an aside, he left the bed because I objected to his snuggling up behind me if there was never going to be any sex. It frustrated me to to no end. He began therapy in our new state and, predictably, left therapy again after a few months. During this time, I began an affair. This continued for over two years until he discovered the affair. It was at that point that he began therapy on his own initiative to try and "save" the marriage by becoming "what I needed."
Unfortunately, you cannot have success in becoming healthy and whole unless it is something you are undertaking for yourself - not to be something that somebody else wants you to be.
The therapist then told him that the process would be a minimum of 5 years - and that he needed to be there at least twice a week. He also told my husband that 5 years could pass and the flashbacks would disappear, the mind would function well again and he would feel better, but that sexual contact may never be desirable. It always repulsed him and could always do so. I was asked to stay and support him in his "healing," with zero guarantees that he would continue therapy or that it would make any difference to the marriage in terms of physical intimacy.
The therapist indicated that he may be able to finally have sex again (at least physically - as his childhood abuse also came with the gift of ED that no pill on earth could help) but that he may never WANT to be physically intimate. He would never DESIRE me. He NEVER HAD.
My husband loved holding my hand or giving quick pecks on the lips. He never desired me. He pushed me away if I tried to deepen a kiss. He could snuggle naked and never achieve an erection. He found sex to be gross and a duty to dispense with if he COULD dispense with it. There came a point where we simply stopped having sex at all because he could not become erect. When I left this past July it had been about 7 years since we had been intimate.
I will tell you that the love I once had for the man died somewhere along the way. I don't know if it died from the benign neglect or not. I suspect the answer to that is a resounding "YES!" I knew that I wanted so much to be loved and desired. I didn't want someone who had to go to therapy to be ABLE to kiss me. I wanted someone who could not HELP BUT to kiss me - passionately.
Lonelywifey, your husband is not the same man as mine. He may truly desire to heal and that would be a wonderful head start for the both of you. However, if he is in therapy because it is necessary to keep you - it may not be enough. Additionally, the therapy will not spit out a man who ravishes you. Although that may not be a necessity of yours from reading your lists in another thread (which were really helpful to make I am guessing). My best guess is that after several years, he will be able to have sex with you. It will be slightly perfunctory, not intimate and erotic. The abuse, I have learned, prevents emotional intimacy - it goes far beyond an inability to desire sex. From my experience since leaving my SM, I will tell you that the emotional intimacy, the ability to communicate, the ability to be fully yourself and open about your desires and what feels good, the ability to be vulnerable in the extreme is what makes sex breathtaking and not merely great.
I am so fortunate to have found shamwow. We understand one another and are helping to heal ourselves and each other. My husband would never have been able to give me the intimacy and love I so badly needed and that I have found with shamwow. He did not desire that type of relationship. Therapy would not give him that desire. There are no benchmarks in the world which will create desire. You can establish benchmarks in order to determine a minimum level of acceptable sexual contact, but please know that it breaks my heart to tell you that the void will still be there. I am sorry. You may be able to get the marriage to a place where it becomes tolerable. I do not believe it will ever bring you great joy.
Love should always be accompanied by joy. I feel joy with shamwow in my life. It is an abiding joy and it is NOT without pain. However, the pain should be the exception, not the rule. These marriages are deeply painful because they leave us with a void that can be worse than being alone. Benchmarks will not cure that ache inside - even when they are reached.
Also, with regard to your worry about being insensitive to the pain he is in. Please ask yourself what actual steps he has taken to address your pain. I realize that you cannot equate a SM with childhood sexual abuse, but the pain of a SM is deep and lasting. It is very real. If he loves you, he will address your pain as if it is his own. You should not feel guilty for thinking of your own needs because it isn't "just sex" as so many not in these situations might think. It seeps into your soul and it changes you in ways you can only begin to understand once you are out and trying to do your own healing. He is abusing you - whether he intends to or not and whether he knows it or not. You are not required to stay and give endlessly at your expense. You have to weight these things. However, you are not obligated to self harm simply because you are married.
Please feel free to reach out to me via PM if you wish to talk/chat. I want to be encouraging, but from where I sit the picture looks a bit bleak. Hugs to you. Also - edited to add that once I initiated divorce proceedings he promptly stopped therapy. Again, it was never about his desire to heal. It was only about doing something to keep me there.
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Post by choosinghappy on Nov 13, 2017 11:56:50 GMT -5
Wow. ballofconfusion : Thank you. I have to admit your comment made me cry. It definitely hits home and is extremely helpful. I will take it to heart and I will read up on your past posts to learn from what you went through. Don't be surprised if I do PM you :-) I am so happy you and shamwow found each other. You guys have what many of us hope for and I'm very glad you both found that with one another.
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