|
Post by northstarmom on Nov 14, 2017 13:17:31 GMT -5
“I am not asking him to go back to therapy simply "in order to have a chance of giving [me] the marriage I want", I am asking him so that we can both have a chance of having the kind of marriage we want. But more importantly, so it can help him in general. I haven't gotten into it here since this site is about SM but his issues go much deeper than just sex; as a result of his trauma he has generalized anxiety disorder. There are times he has been paralyzed due to a situation (not involving me) and only therapy has helped him break out of that and learn how to move forward in a healthy way. He has an overarching need to be in control in all situations and to solve every potential problem before it becomes a problem. He has told me how exhausting this is for him and how much he hates it and wishes he knew how to change. Only therapy could help that. He keeps everyone in his life at arms-length and is never emotionally vulnerable. Even with me it is rare. He has told me how sad he is that he sabotages himself with his closest relationships in this way. “
I can see now why he is going into treatment.
What I don’t understand is how you -/ who appear to have normal needs for emotional and physical connection -/ chose to marry a man so unavailable for either. I can understand having him as a friend. I even have a friend with Asperger’s who finds being physically touched aversive and at age 29 has never had sex.
Considering all the men in the world who are able to physically and emotionally connect how is it that you married a rare man who can’t stand touch or emotional intimacy? It looks like you chose a man who’d be a project not a real husband.
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Nov 14, 2017 13:19:01 GMT -5
“I am not asking him to go back to therapy simply "in order to have a chance of giving [me] the marriage I want", I am asking him so that we can both have a chance of having the kind of marriage we want. But more importantly, so it can help him in general. I haven't gotten into it here since this site is about SM but his issues go much deeper than just sex; as a result of his trauma he has generalized anxiety disorder. There are times he has been paralyzed due to a situation (not involving me) and only therapy has helped him break out of that and learn how to move forward in a healthy way. He has an overarching need to be in control in all situations and to solve every potential problem before it becomes a problem. He has told me how exhausting this is for him and how much he hates it and wishes he knew how to change. Only therapy could help that. He keeps everyone in his life at arms-length and is never emotionally vulnerable. Even with me it is rare. He has told me how sad he is that he sabotages himself with his closest relationships in this way. “
I can see now why he is going into treatment.
What I don’t understand is how you - who appear to have normal needs for emotional and physical connection - chose to marry a man so unavailable for either. I can understand having him as a friend. I even have a friend with Asperger’s who finds being physically touched aversive and at age 29 has never had sex.
Considering all the men in the world who are able to physically and emotionally connect how is it that you married a rare man who can’t stand touch or emotional intimacy? It looks like you chose a man who’d be a project not a real husband. Is there any chance that you aren’t that comfortable with physical or emotional intimacy so you chose a partner who couldn’t do those things?
|
|
|
Post by choosinghappy on Nov 14, 2017 13:37:21 GMT -5
Considering all the men in the world who are able to physically and emotionally connect how is it that you married a rare man who can’t stand touch or emotional intimacy? It looks like you chose a man who’d be a project not a real husband. Is there any chance that you aren’t that comfortable with physical or emotional intimacy so you chose a partner who couldn’t do those things? Regarding choosing a man who is a "project" vs a "real husband" - I did not do that knowingly. As a quick overview of our 10 year relationship here's a comment I made on a previous post: "[In hindsight,] I always knew something was "off" in our sex life. Looking back, he always seemed slightly uncomfortable. It was a glaring red flag I shouldn't have ignored but I did. He suffered from bad back pain for the first 8 years of our relationship so that was a convenient excuse and I believed it was because of the pain that he would sometimes refuse me. When dating we went from sex about once a week to slowly less and less and the last 3 years of our 10 year relationship were sex free, not counting the [June 2017] reset sex. Even at its most frequent it was never enough for me but I assumed when his pain got better [after his 2 back surgeries] things would improve. They didn't. They got worse and it was during counseling last year that he told me about his past sexual abuse. So I went 9 years not knowing about that..."Regarding whether or not I have an issue with physical or emotional intimacy: That is a very good question for me to think about. I have no problem with physical intimacy and I crave it. I have no issue being physical without the emotional component present. In that way I've always felt different from the "typical woman". I feel less clear on my comfortability with emotional intimacy. Likely, in part, due to a lack of it in my marriage. Help me out everyone: What does true emotional intimacy mean to you? What are the most important parts of it? Give me some good examples. I think I need to explore this more closely. Thanks northstarmom . EDIT: I'm gonna start a new thread with these questions. I need some here on this one.
|
|
|
Post by shamwow on Nov 14, 2017 13:44:04 GMT -5
Sounds like a mixed bag. It sounds as though he sees the plane is going down and is putting the oxygen mask over his own face first, just as people are instructed to. It remains to see whether there is adequate oxygen flowing to the mask to help him or once helped if he has enough to help work on the marriage. It may be enough, or it might just be a bridge too far. This isn't like some of the stories on this forum where people look at the poster and say "run you damn fool...run!". Your situation sounds more like a calculated gamble. I'm not much of a gambler, but on the rare occasions I go to the casino, I always have clearly defined amounts I am willing to lose (and I pretty much always lose it all). Your husband seems to be making an effort at therapy (as evidenced by his willingness to make the effort to go). The gamble seems to come in when the question as to "why" he is doing so is asked. It may be he knows (correctly) that he needs to help himself first before he can work on the marriage. It may be that he is working on himself to work on himself for himself only. It may be that he has no fucking idea WHAT he is trying to do (this is most likely IMHO). The tricky part here is that you aren't gambling money. You are literally gambling your life. If you're right, you have a (slim) possibility that in a few years he may be able to touch and be touched. You will never have the intimate life you want, but you may have some/most of your needs/desires list checked. Only you can decide if that is enough. If you are wrong, you will have wasted some the most vibrant years of your life trying to fix something that never worked right in the first place. It was broken before you bought it. Only you can decide if that cost is worth paying. Don't listen to me, don't listen to anyone else here. Listen to yourself. In the end, you are the one who has to live with it...one way or the other. Thanks shamwow that is very helpful. Regarding your question as to why H is going to therapy; I think it's for a multitude of reasons. He needs help in many more ways than just intimately and sexually. And I care about him and his well being so I want him to get help in all the ways he needs. I agree he is putting his own oxygen mask on first and that is how it should be. Before I made him realize how detrimental this SM was to me, his form of oxygen mask was avoidance of therapy/his problems. In a way he put ME first by agreeing to go back. Now that he's getting help I think it is only right that he is putting himself first. And I am also putting myself first in other ways (being on here, outsourcing). The question of WHY and what he is trying to do in therapy reminded me of the below comment I made on this previous post: www.iliasm.org/thread/3351/dry-spell-broken?page=3"I am not asking him to go back to therapy simply "in order to have a chance of giving [me] the marriage I want", I am asking him so that we can both have a chance of having the kind of marriage we want. But more importantly, so it can help him in general. I haven't gotten into it here since this site is about SM but his issues go much deeper than just sex; as a result of his trauma he has generalized anxiety disorder. There are times he has been paralyzed due to a situation (not involving me) and only therapy has helped him break out of that and learn how to move forward in a healthy way. He has an overarching need to be in control in all situations and to solve every potential problem before it becomes a problem. He has told me how exhausting this is for him and how much he hates it and wishes he knew how to change. Only therapy could help that. He keeps everyone in his life at arms-length and is never emotionally vulnerable. Even with me it is rare. He has told me how sad he is that he sabotages himself with his closest relationships in this way.
I do not see it as cruel to suggest he go back to therapy. I see it as cruel NOT to support him in it. I know that it is what is best for him and he does too. He's just afraid to do it and for that I do not blame him.
But yes, I of course hope that through therapy he can also start to learn ways to like giving and receiving touch and intimacy and sex. For me to be happy in my marriage I need things to improve. I do not feel that makes me a cruel person. I am not demanding that he learn how to become a "skilled, passionate lover for [me]". What I am asking is for him to confront our issues and acknowledge that they stem from his past, explore healthy ways to cope and to grow, and to work with me on connecting intimately and sexually. If he legitimately tries and is unable to do that then we will need to have other conversations and explore options such as an open marriage, AP, or possibly divorce. But for now, I want to try what is best for him and for us in order to see if things can improve. I do not think it is unrealistic or callous of me." So if I'm hearing your correctly, you are at the table already. You already have chips in play. You have your eyes wide open that you, by yourself, cannot fix him. But to be true to yourself, you feel you need to see this through. That may change in the future (hence the need for benchmarks), but for now, you feel you are where you need to be. If that is the case, it is an honorable position, and you have my respect (for whatever that's worth)
|
|
|
Post by choosinghappy on Nov 14, 2017 13:49:04 GMT -5
So if I'm hearing your correctly, you are at the table already. You already have chips in play. You have your eyes wide open that you, by yourself, cannot fix him. But to be true to yourself, you feel you need to see this through. That may change in the future (hence the need for benchmarks), but for now, you feel you are where you need to be. If that is the case, it is an honorable position, and you have my respect (for whatever that's worth) I think that is a perfect summary of the place I am in currently. And I'll take the respect :-) You have mine too.
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Nov 14, 2017 13:51:02 GMT -5
This is why I wondered whether you may have unconsciously selected a man who was not able to connect physically or emotionally: “He has an overarching need to be in control in all situations and to solve every potential problem before it becomes a problem. He has told me how exhausting this is for him and how much he hates it and wishes he knew how to change. Only therapy could help that. He keeps everyone in his life at arms-length and is never emotionally vulnerable. Even with me it is rare. He has told me how sad he is that he sabotages himself with his closest relationships in this way. “
I am asking with compassion as I did something similar. My dad had an explosive personality and literally threaten my life when I was young. What attracted me to my ex was how calm he was. I now suspect he may have Asperger’s syndrome as he doesn’t get that close to people. But when we got together and for decades , I experienced him as safe.
|
|
|
Post by choosinghappy on Nov 14, 2017 14:00:54 GMT -5
This is why I wondered whether you may have unconsciously selected a man who was not able to connect physically or emotionally: “He has an overarching need to be in control in all situations and to solve every potential problem before it becomes a problem. He has told me how exhausting this is for him and how much he hates it and wishes he knew how to change. Only therapy could help that. He keeps everyone in his life at arms-length and is never emotionally vulnerable. Even with me it is rare. He has told me how sad he is that he sabotages himself with his closest relationships in this way. “ I am asking with compassion as I did something similar. My dad had an explosive personality and literally threaten my life when I was young. What attracted me to my ex was how calm he was. I now suspect he may have Asperger’s syndrome as he doesn’t get that close to people. But when we got together and for decades , I experienced him as safe. My mother was the one with an explosive (and violent) personality. Now I know it was an undiagnosed mental illness but it made for an unstable environment when I was young. My H is also very calm and even. And I like that about him. (Except for when it results in a complete lack of passion!)
|
|
|
Post by shamwow on Nov 14, 2017 14:37:12 GMT -5
So if I'm hearing your correctly, you are at the table already. You already have chips in play. You have your eyes wide open that you, by yourself, cannot fix him. But to be true to yourself, you feel you need to see this through. That may change in the future (hence the need for benchmarks), but for now, you feel you are where you need to be. If that is the case, it is an honorable position, and you have my respect (for whatever that's worth) I think that is a perfect summary of the place I am in currently. And I'll take the respect :-) You have mine too. If that's where you are at, then, I wouldn't cheat if I were you. There is a tremendous moral victory knowing you did everything you could for as long as you could and that you honored your vows (even if he didn't honor his). If it turns out that it doesn't work out in the end? You can walk out with your head held high and honor intact. To not cheat (and to leave when it was truly over) was one of the wisest decisions I've ever made.
|
|
|
Post by choosinghappy on Nov 14, 2017 14:49:34 GMT -5
If that's where you are at, then, I wouldn't cheat if I were you. There is a tremendous moral victory knowing you did everything you could for as long as you could and that you honored your vows (even if he didn't honor his). If it turns out that it doesn't work out in the end? You can walk out with your head held high and honor intact. To not cheat (and to leave when it was truly over) was one of the wisest decisions I've ever made. I'm happy for you that you feel good about your decisions and that you are happy now with BOC. But I don't see it as being unable to hold my head high or not feel honorable because I am getting my needs met elsewhere. If our marriage doesn't work out in the end I will not beat myself up for refusing to live a celibate lifestyle for however long our marriage may last. I will accept and honor my decision to remain true to myself, to who I am, and to my needs, desires and quest for happiness despite being put between a rock and a hard place. Outsourcing and living life with integrity do not have to be antonyms.
|
|
|
Post by shamwow on Nov 14, 2017 16:09:13 GMT -5
If that's where you are at, then, I wouldn't cheat if I were you. There is a tremendous moral victory knowing you did everything you could for as long as you could and that you honored your vows (even if he didn't honor his). If it turns out that it doesn't work out in the end? You can walk out with your head held high and honor intact. To not cheat (and to leave when it was truly over) was one of the wisest decisions I've ever made. I'm happy for you that you feel good about your decisions and that you are happy now with BOC. But I don't see it as being unable to hold my head high or not feel honorable because I am getting my needs met elsewhere. If our marriage doesn't work out in the end I will not beat myself up for refusing to live a celibate lifestyle for however long our marriage may last. I will accept and honor my decision to remain true to myself, to who I am, and to my needs, desires and quest for happiness despite being put between a rock and a hard place. Outsourcing and living life with integrity do not have to be antonyms. One of the interesting things about the forum is seeing so many perspectives on what is essentially the same intractable problem. I guess my advice was influenced by a combination of my own divorce and BOC's divorce. On mine, it was hugely to hold my head up high. I would have beat myself up incessantly over it had I cheated. It's just the way I'm wired. ballofconfusion is closer to you in that she had an affair as a way of coping with a marriage that was essentially dead in such an essential way. That being said, she now regrets cheating because of what she thinks her kids think of her. When she told them, she honestly though she had lost her entire family. They knew the marriage was crappy. They do live in the same house, after all. But they were angry at her about the affair. In reality, it was going to come out anyway, and her STBX would have held that over her head like a club even after the divorce was over. Much better to get everything on the table at once and not have shoes drop for years (and her kids not know when they will stop). As the divorce is in full swing, her STBX uses every opportunity to muddy the waters with the kids, painting himself as the victim on everything from finances (he makes over 4 times what she does per year) to custody (demands time with kids then ignores them when there). If the affair had still been a secret? He would have picked the most inopportune time to let that little bomb "slip". As it stands, BOC often worries (unfounded IMHO) that her kids won't want anything to do with either of their parents as they grow older. Just remember if the marriage does end, the man you know now will become someone completely different once the bonds of "till death do we part" are broken. The "victim" may very well beat you incessantly with the club you handed him. So even if you don't plan on beating yourself up over it? Everyone else will sure as hell take a whack at you (especially people who have no fucking idea about the hell of living in a SM), and it may very well be the gift that keeps giving (I'm finding post-SM there are a lot of those).
|
|
|
Post by h on Nov 14, 2017 17:19:30 GMT -5
I'm happy for you that you feel good about your decisions and that you are happy now with BOC. But I don't see it as being unable to hold my head high or not feel honorable because I am getting my needs met elsewhere. If our marriage doesn't work out in the end I will not beat myself up for refusing to live a celibate lifestyle for however long our marriage may last. I will accept and honor my decision to remain true to myself, to who I am, and to my needs, desires and quest for happiness despite being put between a rock and a hard place. Outsourcing and living life with integrity do not have to be antonyms. One of the interesting things about the forum is seeing so many perspectives on what is essentially the same intractable problem. I guess my advice was influenced by a combination of my own divorce and BOC's divorce. On mine, it was hugely to hold my head up high. I would have beat myself up incessantly over it had I cheated. It's just the way I'm wired. ballofconfusion is closer to you in that she had an affair as a way of coping with a marriage that was essentially dead in such an essential way. That being said, she now regrets cheating because of what she thinks her kids think of her. When she told them, she honestly though she had lost her entire family. They knew the marriage was crappy. They do live in the same house, after all. But they were angry at her about the affair. In reality, it was going to come out anyway, and her STBX would have held that over her head like a club even after the divorce was over. Much better to get everything on the table at once and not have shoes drop for years (and her kids not know when they will stop). As the divorce is in full swing, her STBX uses every opportunity to muddy the waters with the kids, painting himself as the victim on everything from finances (he makes over 4 times what she does per year) to custody (demands time with kids then ignores them when there). If the affair had still been a secret? He would have picked the most inopportune time to let that little bomb "slip". As it stands, BOC often worries (unfounded IMHO) that her kids won't want anything to do with either of their parents as they grow older. Just remember if the marriage does end, the man you know now will become someone completely different once the bonds of "till death do we part" are broken. The "victim" may very well beat you incessantly with the club you handed him. So even if you don't plan on beating yourself up over it? Everyone else will sure as hell take a whack at you (especially people who have no fucking idea about the hell of living in a SM), and it may very well be the gift that keeps giving (I'm finding post-SM there are a lot of those). I'm with you shamwow. I could never handle outsourcing on a personal level and on top of that, I would burn most of the relationships I have with family and friends. I can't judge or fault another for doing it. I'm not in their shoes. Just 3 years ago, I would not have been so accepting but now, any individual choice that doesn't directly cause harm to another is valid. I just couldn't personally make that particular choice.
|
|
drbamboo
Junior Member
Posts: 20
Age Range: 56-60
|
Post by drbamboo on Nov 14, 2017 18:49:58 GMT -5
I'm not good at this site and don't spend much time here (no longer in SM so got better things to do!) but wanted to tell you keep going. I know exactly how you feel and the only cure is to get out. Not sure if you've gotten the whole make-a-plan speech, but it's important. There is only one thing that matters right now and that's planning your exit. The rest is just wasted energy.
I think your H said in regards to outsourcing: "... he’d rather we divorce than have that happen." I think that's your answer. Move on. He'll be as fine as can be expected. There are non-sexual people out there who will make him happy. It's not you. Move on. Protect your kids and your bank account and be as kind and respectful as possible. But go. Soon.
I really, really wish you could see how miserable I was and how happy I am now. It can happen. Life is for living.
Take care and be strong.
|
|
|
Post by shamwow on Nov 14, 2017 19:06:47 GMT -5
I'm not good at this site and don't spend much time here (no longer in SM so got better things to do!) but wanted to tell you keep going. I know exactly how you feel and the only cure is to get out. Not sure if you've gotten the whole make-a-plan speech, but it's important. There is only one thing that matters right now and that's planning your exit. The rest is just wasted energy. I think your H said in regards to outsourcing: "... he’d rather we divorce than have that happen." I think that's your answer. Move on. He'll be as fine as can be expected. There are non-sexual people out there who will make him happy. It's not you. Move on. Protect your kids and your bank account and be as kind and respectful as possible. But go. Soon. I really, really wish you could see how miserable I was and how happy I am now. It can happen. Life is for living. Take care and be strong. Also remember how messed in the head you were and how hard it was to let go of the misery? We need to hit bottom before we can let go.
|
|
|
Post by baza on Nov 15, 2017 1:55:18 GMT -5
My objection to cheating is not a moral or ethical position. Cheating is as valid a choice as staying or leaving.
My objection is that it throws an extra layer of complexity over an already complex problem. If you are dealing with a complex problem, it needs to be broken down into its' constituent parts and dealt with one bite at a time. Adding additional things into the mix - like having an affair, or taking up drinking to help cope, or similar, ain't going to help.
A "standard" ILIASM shithole is a very difficult thing to bring to resolution under "standard" conditions. Your focus has to be laser like on the core issue. Adding in additional factors only achieves to make it harder, and can spin things off in some weird - and not so wonderful - tangents of an unpredictable nature.
|
|
|
Post by elkclan2 on Nov 15, 2017 6:00:12 GMT -5
Everyone is different, and for some of us, outsourcing WAS a necessary step in leaving. But beware that outsourcing can both help you leave and keep you trapped. If you are getting your needs met in an outsourcing relationship, particularly with someone who is also married, leaving your marriage WILL change your outsourced relationship. I had a 5 year affair - 3 yrs in my marriage and 2 years out. He is still married. We weren't particularly suited to each other romantically, but helped each other out. He broke up with me after I started a relationship with my current partner and he could see how serious it was getting. (My current partner was in a poly relationship, so he knew and was fine with me seeing my lover. His lover dumped him to make space for me. We are now monogamous and that feels right.)
|
|