|
Post by warmways on Sept 11, 2016 21:30:43 GMT -5
..struggling .. I find it so hard to say what is needed to my dismissive-avoidant refuser. I can see why I'm totally blocked.. [he changes the subject and shuts down conversations, or promises a tiny bit but then doesn't deliver], but I'm so accustomed to not speaking up for years and after my attempts are met with a negative outcome I feel helpless.
What I've said to him a million times is that: I'm lonely and need to connect and I'm really miserable. A lot of times he has an excuse when I try to talk.
I told my therapist I was having trouble communicating/and wondering about how I would begin talking about a divorce and she said: "the writings on the wall" (basically that he shouldn't be surprised if I say I want a divorce). She also said I could say: "My therapist said she thinks I'll be a lot happier if we get a divorce." (I'm not sure about that).
She said that he could have responded with: "Well, let's talk about how we can make things better." Instead, what he said was:"I wish you would focus on the positive things". Then he made an excuse to shut down the conversation.
My question:
How do you talk to your refuser when you're in so much pain and shut down and sad? (When you're so numb that you feel far removed from your truth and what you feel? The weird thing is that when he asks for his daily hug I actually feel close and that I love him. OK, maybe that's not so weird. It just makes the struggle to detach that much more difficult.
I've lost touch with my own words because I've been "going along to get along" for too long.
There may be no answer but to keep working to stand up for myself. I really just needed to get these words out as I have so much unsaid.
The other thing is I'm visiting my lbrother in CT for a week and I think the distance will help me see the situation more objectively.
I needed to vent. Thank you for reading if you got this far;)
|
|
|
Post by GeekGoddess on Sept 11, 2016 22:08:47 GMT -5
..struggling .. I find it so hard to say what is needed to my dismissive-avoidant refuser. I can see why I'm totally blocked.. [he changes the subject and shuts down conversations, or promises a tiny bit but then doesn't deliver], but I'm so accustomed to not speaking up for years and after my attempts are met with a negative outcome I feel helpless. What I've said to him a million times is that: I'm lonely and need to connect and I'm really miserable. A lot of times he has an excuse when I try to talk. I told my therapist I was having trouble communicating/and wondering about how I would begin talking about a divorce and she said: "the writings on the wall" (basically that he shouldn't be surprised if I say I want a divorce). She also said I could say: "My therapist said she thinks I'll be a lot happier if we get a divorce." (I'm not sure about that). She said that he could have responded with: "Well, let's talk about how we can make things better." Instead, what he said was:"I wish you would focus on the positive things". Then he made an excuse to shut down the conversation. My question: How do you talk to your refuser when you're in so much pain and shut down and sad? (When you're so numb that you feel far removed from your truth and what you feel? The weird thing is that when he asks for his daily hug I actually feel close and that I love him. OK, maybe that's not so weird. It just makes the struggle to detach that much more difficult. I've lost touch with my own words because I've been "going along to get along" for too long. There may be no answer but to keep working to stand up for myself. I really just needed to get these words out as I have so much unsaid. The other thing is I'm visiting my lbrother in CT for a week and I think the distance will help me see the situation more objectively. I needed to vent. Thank you for reading if you got this far;) I had made my decision last year - wrote it down - read it to him - then he finally talked. During that talk, I was so firm & detached .... He looked at me one time and said "You're like a GrantGeek I don't even know" I basically told him that's what I've been trying to say all along. I would write it down - at least for yourself. And - no - please don't use "my therapist says..." YOU get to say what you want from life. I'd suggest maybe using "I want a divorce because I think I'd be happier & my therapist agrees with that" - but don't make it sound like the therapist's idea or you'll never be able to disentangle. It's hard to talk with people who won't listen. When I read my guy the letter, I'm convinced it was the first time in a few years that finished whole sentences w/o him interrupting me. Years. It's the years of staying silent in the SM - that was the thing that was my bitterest disappointment in myself. I owed myself better treatment than that. I finally did it. Anyway I'm out & better off for it. And I hope you can find all the strength you need to take care of yourself- your needs & wants.
|
|
|
Post by unmatched on Sept 11, 2016 22:21:38 GMT -5
I agree with GeekGoddess - write it all down. It will help you know exactly what you want to say. And then either read it to him or give it to him. Either way it is like putting him on notice that he needs to start taking you seriously and actually listening to you when you say things. And I agree with not using, 'My therapist says...' It is a cop out and you are stronger than that. You just need to practice!
|
|
|
Post by baza on Sept 11, 2016 22:34:08 GMT -5
This may help, or mebbe not. You are not obliged to produce some great speech in the style of the Gettysburg Address to convince the avoidant spouse as to the righteousness of your cause to dissolve the marriage. It would be perfectly ok to get the divorce action underway without saying a word, and just dump it on him unannounced. (just like you'd do if there was a big risk of violence in the situation). - It reads like he is a really skilled avoidant, able to knock conversations off balance real easy, and close them down. It reads like he is way better at this than you are at keeping things on topic. - Your chances of having an adult negotiation with him are really not too good. Might be best to by-pass "The Talk", and go straight to action. "The Talk" seldom works in any event. It is not a crucial part of an exit strategy.
|
|
|
Post by warmways on Sept 11, 2016 22:39:37 GMT -5
Thanks grantgeek and unmatched. You're absolutely right..I just realized I gave up for a long time but I'm coming back! I used to write all the time and stopped. I'm putting it all down! Action is the way forward.
|
|
|
Post by warmways on Sept 11, 2016 22:54:26 GMT -5
This may help, or mebbe not. You are not obliged to produce some great speech in the style of the Gettysburg Address to convince the avoidant spouse as to the righteousness of your cause to dissolve the marriage. It would be perfectly ok to get the divorce action underway without saying a word, and just dump it on him unannounced. (just like you'd do if there was a big risk of violence in the situation). - It reads like he is a really skilled avoidant, able to knock conversations off balance real easy, and close them down. It reads like he is way better at this than you are at keeping things on topic. - Your chances of having an adult negotiation with him are really not too good. Might be best to by-pass "The Talk", and go straight to action. "The Talk" seldom works in any event. It is not a crucial part of an exit strategy. You called it exactly; he's a really skilled avoidant and dominates almost every interaction we have. Everything is on his terms etc. so I doubt anything I say is going to change the dynamic but I like the idea of getting all the crap I have swirling around in me out on paper so I think I will write everything out for myself and start the process - call the lawyer, figure out everything else and just tell him when it's time.
|
|
|
Post by baza on Sept 12, 2016 4:16:09 GMT -5
As a stand alone issue, writing everything out is a terrific idea. Whether you do anything with your writings or not. The discipline involved in organising, and then writing down your thoughts, can be of great value in gaining clarity.
|
|
|
Post by becca on Sept 12, 2016 5:40:20 GMT -5
I have attempted to have the talk but H (an avoider) just leaves the room or I realize too late he has consumed too much alcohol and isn't going to remember anything. A letter may definitely be the best way for me. There is some great information in this thread. I guess my heart isn't fully in it either. I keep hoping he will change but I see from this forum that isn't very likely. Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Sept 12, 2016 6:52:32 GMT -5
What I've said to him a million times is that: I'm lonely and need to connect and I'm really miserable. A lot of times he has an excuse when I try to talk. ( I think the sun might come out today, that's all that means to him. It doesn't fit his selfish agenda.) She said that he could have responded with: "Well, let's talk about how we can make things better." Instead, what he said was:"I wish you would focus on the positive things". Then he made an excuse to shut down the conversation. (look at what he said. What was the very first word? " I", not we. All about him and taking, no giving. Look at the next word. "You". Here comes the blame. It's your fault. It's always going to be that way. A manipulative controller NEVER is to blame for ANYTHING. The " positive". Meaning focus on me what will serve me only. There's your writing on the wall!) My question: How do you talk to your refuser when you're in so much pain and shut down and sad? (When you're so numb that you feel far removed from your truth and what you feel? ( let him see you turn around and start documenting his words. He counts on you shutting down and not remembering . Take action, actions speak louder than words. Repeat your question. Quote him. Add your feelings to it. Text him. Tape it to his car seat. You will be detaching yourself from his manipulative, controlling words. Odds are you will hear them less and less.) The weird thing is that when he asks for his daily hug I actually feel close and that I love him. OK, maybe that's not so weird. It just makes the struggle to detach that much more difficult. ( Sounds like forced affection. Or a daily re set. Like giving you a crumb, to keep you quiet. Manipulation again.) I've lost touch with my own words because I've been "going along to get along" for too long. (if you were to tell the cashier at the grocery store, I just gave you cash for that . Then they said your total is $150.. Would you pay them twice ? Would you have something to say about it? You deserve far better treatment from someone who claims to be your husband. You deserve that!!) The other thing is I'm visiting my lbrother in CT for a week and I think the distance will help me see the situation more objectively. ( Spill to your brother. I hope it is very helpful for you!)
|
|
|
Post by warmways on Sept 12, 2016 9:20:40 GMT -5
-----------------------------------------t h a n k you-----------------------------
I've allowed my marriage and non communication dynamic to spiral into something barely recognizable and this really makes sense. I want to tattoo it to my arm.
lIASM messes with your head. but I think see glimmers of myself finally coming back.
Last night he asked for a hug and I really did have a stomach ache so declined which I do maybe one time out of ten. I figured out what to say when he asks for his hug. I'm trying to say something that is really me.
Avoidant: "can I get a hug?"
Me:
"When I hug you I feel close which ijust reminds me how rarely we touch. It feels like a drop in the bucket or 0.01% better which is a painful reminder of what I'm always missing except for these am and pm hugs where I feel close for several seconds."
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Sept 12, 2016 9:37:58 GMT -5
-----------------------------------------t h a n k you----------------------------- I've allowed my marriage and non communication dynamic to spiral into something barely recognizable and this really makes sense. I want to tattoo it to my arm. lIASM messes with your head. but I think see glimmers of myself finally coming back. Last night he asked for a hug and I really did have a stomach ache so declined which I do maybe one time out of ten. I figured out what to say when he asks for his hug. I'm trying to say something that is really me. Avoidant: "can I get a hug?" Me: "When I hug you I feel close which ijust reminds me how rarely we touch. It feels like a drop in the bucket or 0.01% better which is a painful reminder of what I'm always missing except for these am and pm hugs where I feel close for several seconds." Oh, dear friend!! You have been giving,giving,giving, for so long, you have Been conditioned to feel guilt for even wanting the least amount of affection. You have been programmed to be thankful for a ceremonial peck. listen to your explanation. You feel such guilt, you are already trying to justify the least bit of denying him what he wants. your biggest responsibility, and fear, is to just say,.......NO. And turn away. Detach yourself from such manipulation.
|
|
|
Post by warmways on Sept 12, 2016 13:48:10 GMT -5
Yup.
Finally, finally finally I am seeing reality.
It's this simple:
Actions speak louder Han words.
Damn, my inaction kept me immobile but that's done. There are cracks in the concrete I allowed to dry around me!
(Hugs)!!
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Sept 12, 2016 14:13:13 GMT -5
warmways : I think I have very much been in the "Valley of Going Along to Get Along" for quite a while. It is a pretty sucky place... you need to find the way out! My advice is find your voice by INCREASING the distance from him: - Spend time with friends of yours -- or make new friends
- Take a class: music, exercise, pottery... just start growing in SOME WAY that is outside of the shade he is casting in your life.
- Do something you've always wanted to do but haven't because he would have poo-pooed it. Could be small (start wearing a color you like but he disapproves of) or big (makes some purchase; take a vacation with some girlfriends).
- Start caring less about his opinions.
I don't think you can deliver the message you want until you have "more you" to stand on. I think I've been doing this for some time (along with allowing myself to visualize a divorce for me), and it is helping me personally. So I've started up the path to the mountain pass, and may nearly be out. That is the good news! The bad news is... there are two more valleys to pass through. (For me at least.) Looks like I have yet to pass through "The Valley Of Breaking Her Heart" (when I am finally direct that I no longer want to be married to her) and "The Valley of Executing A Divorce and Separating Our Lives". Ugh. But it seems like that is the path I must take on my way to Oppositeland. I think I need all the courage, strength, and support I can gather. This forum is playing a big part of that. === One comment about the "write it all down and read it to him". Well, I half-agree: definitely "write it all down". But then: put it aside. Re-read back to yourself later. Work it; refine it; start from scratch and write it down again. You will slowly find your "self" in there. And it will likely change shape a bit each time you write it down. Read it to him? Hmmm. It may be helpful, it may not. I'd bet in your heart of hearts you'd like to read your perfectly crafted letter and THEN he will either: - 100% agree and immediately ask "what can I do to fix this/save us?"... and it works and you live happily ever after.
- 100% agree and immediately say (sorrowfully) "I've been so miserable to you; since I know I can't change, I release you from our marriage so you can find someone better; someone you deserve"
Here's the bad news: generally in life, if we try to script someone ELSE'S behavior, they will probably go off script! What makes you think he won't interrupt as you do? or argue? or shoot you down? or just shut you down and walk away? If there is a place for "just read him something from the script", it may be ONLY the final letter that can work that way: "I've decided to change my life, and that means leaving you"... because they you 100% don't care what his response/reply is.
|
|
|
Post by becca on Sept 12, 2016 14:19:38 GMT -5
My advice is find your voice by INCREASING the distance from him: - Spend time with friends of yours -- or make new friends
- Take a class: music, exercise, pottery... just start growing in SOME WAY that is outside of the shade he is casting in your life.
- Do something you've always wanted to do but haven't because he would have poo-pooed it. Could be small (start wearing a color you like but he disapproves of) or big (makes some purchase; take a vacation with some girlfriends).
- Start caring less about his opinions.
I don't think you can deliver the message you want until you have "more you" to stand on.
5 star advice, Dan! I think it creates a bridge for those of us living in the land of indecision.
|
|
|
Post by warmways on Sept 12, 2016 18:06:39 GMT -5
Yes, wow. This is extremely helpful advice.
Thank you so much for your support. Something happened after 16 years of being dismissed. If he were to say I'm so sorry... what can I do now to fix this it would have no impact anymore. I was hurt too much to go back and try. Part of me wishes I could still find it in me to try again if he said that but then again I know enough now about the dismissive avoidant personality and from his failed attempts that it would all be for naught and I may actually lose myself for good.
I'm wishing you continued resolve and positive energy to face your two hurdles.
Congratulations for reaching the point where you are right now.
|
|