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Post by olofat on Jul 30, 2016 7:29:14 GMT -5
From the article: "The #1 reason that I see marriages failing is because one or both members of the marriage refuses to do what’s required to keep the relationship together."
Duh. But even if both partners are *willing* to "do what it takes" doesn't necessarily mean success is possible. Let's say wife is willing to have sex regularly and even does so. That doesn't mean her sex drive is back. Suppose I understand and accept that. That doesn't mean I stop feeling a need to be desired sexually. We might have gone from a sexless marriage to a marriage with sex but still without mutual sexual desire. Is that success? May be enough to keep from divorcing but not enough to be "happily" married.
I think the root problem is incompatibility. Hard work isn't going to change that.
"Willingness to do what it takes" could also include accepting what cannot be changed. Whether that's worth doing is the question.
No marriage is perfect. Some of us consider the pros outweigh the cons (presently), some of us don't.
Note: a "pro" to staying that receives an unfortunately high weight is often "don't have to change" and a con to divorcing that likewise receives an unfortunately high weight is fear.
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 30, 2016 8:05:02 GMT -5
From the article: "The #1 reason that I see marriages failing is because one or both members of the marriage refuses to do what’s required to keep the relationship together." Duh. But even if both partners are *willing* to "do what it takes" doesn't necessarily mean success is possible. Let's say wife is willing to have sex regularly and even does so. That doesn't mean her sex drive is back. Suppose I understand and accept that. That doesn't mean I stop feeling a need to be desired sexually. We might have gone from a sexless marriage to a marriage with sex but still without mutual sexual desire. Is that success? May be enough to keep from divorcing but not enough to be "happily" married. I think the root problem is incompatibility. Hard work isn't going to change that. "Willingness to do what it takes" could also include accepting what cannot be changed. Whether that's worth doing is the question. No marriage is perfect. Some of us consider the pros outweigh the cons (presently), some of us don't. Note: a "pro" to staying that receives an unfortunately high weight is often "don't have to change" and a con to divorcing that likewise receives an unfortunately high weight is fear. I liked your use of the word "willing". I refuse to have sex with someone that is "willing" to have sex. I need someone that "wants and desires" me sexually. Incompatibility is another word that I think simplifies it. I might have well have been married to a gay man because with my refuser he was not sexually attracted to me. He didn't want sex with me. He liked fooling around online, watching porn and maybe he was cheating. Finally it boiled down to a fulfilling sex life or a non existing one because we were incompatible.
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Post by itsjustus on Sept 9, 2016 15:34:54 GMT -5
"We need to talk..." Thus began the end of my 32 year marriage. (Me to my now ex) "We never just talk..." Thus began the end of my two year affair with a married woman (My former AP to her newly "aware" H) "I promise you complete open and honest communication, no matter what" The mutual commitment with the woman who has shown me the true meaning of a loving relationship. (To each other almost daily, if not hourly)
My ex and I, married in our early 20's, busy with hers and mine kids, never, ever talked about our marriage, our relationship, our true wants and desires in marriage. Years of letting each other "slide" on the big things, the little things, even the day to day things, all leading to resentments that piled up. Until that fateful day I said we need to talk and discovering her resentments and my realization she would never be able to fulfil my wants or needs. Communication. Open and honest.
My AP and her H, married right out of high school, her on a rebound but no real love and incapable of expressing her deep emotions and feelings truthfully though he pleaded for answers early on until he gave up and sank into depression and recriminations for the balance of their 36 year marriage, causing her to withdraw more and more. She became the refuser. He seemed uncaring. Finding me, newly open and ready to talk about deep feelings had to be a breath of fresh air. Though as our relationship grew, so did her guilt and she withdrew from me, shutting down topic after topic, including love and the future. Until that fateful day he said "We never talk.." and she found a man who still loved her. A man willing to recommit, to try, to commit to change, if she would. To communicate. I couldn't compete. Their history. Her feeling of the "known" V's my unknown. The guilt and sense of responsibility to try to make up for the years of not being what he had deserved. I "got it". But none the less, it hurt to the core when she said goodbye. Communication. Open and honest.
I wrote a story on EP once, focused on my newfound "have to haves" in any new relationships. Wanting others to chip in with theirs, I started with trust as the most important. Trust your heart, body, and love to the other, trusting it would be returned. But in discussing just the other day my new loves list of "have to haves" after a failed marriage to a man who won't talk about any of his feelings, and seeing trust at the top, it hit me. I trust her, implicitly, more than I ever have anyone else, ever. But that trust came from, grew from.... Communication. Open and honest. Completly. Maturely. Both ways.
Upfront. A huge difference. The difference of a lifetime.
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Post by becca on Sept 11, 2016 8:21:53 GMT -5
I would love more communication. If we could have an honest talk about what is going on and go from there. For all I know, it is a physical problem that is completely beyond his control. Ok. I can handle that. But the constant rejection with no communication drives me over the edge. When I approach him about it he will flat out say, "I'm done here." and leave the room. Or "here you go again" and leave the house.
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Post by bballgirl on Sept 11, 2016 10:30:16 GMT -5
I would love more communication. If we could have an honest talk about what is going on and go from there. For all I know, it is a physical problem that is completely beyond his control. Ok. I can handle that. But the constant rejection with no communication drives me over the edge. When I approach him about it he will flat out say, "I'm done here." and leave the room. Or "here you go again" and leave the house. This is typical behavior of an avoidant refuser. He sees that something is bothering you and he walks away?! What kind of partnership is that? (Totally rhetorical) I think that I would write a letter or an email in which you inform of of the following, think of them as learning goals because he is acting like a child/student and you are the adult/ teacher: 1) The problems with the relationship 2) How it makes you feel 3) How it makes you feel when he walks out 4) Your solutions for the problem - He needs to do x,y and z or you will be A- outsourcing OR B- walking out for good. (Whether you mean it or not he needs a scare in him) C- Failure for him to discuss this and seek help will result in ladies choice. 5) Tell him to think long and hard about what's important to him. I understand he is probably embarrassed and ashamed if it's a medical condition but if he loves you and wants to have a full life with you then he needs to get over the shame and grow up. On the other hand he could be wacking off to porn and he's intimacy averse or just is not capable of being with a real live woman. There are so msny possibilities but the bottom line is celibacy is not normal or acceptable and nobody has the right to make that unilateral decision for someone else. Eventually you will have to make a decision based on what you want for the rest of your time on Earth. Find your happiness.
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Post by becca on Sept 11, 2016 10:35:00 GMT -5
I think that I would write a letter or an email in which you inform of of the following, think of them as learning goals because he is acting like a child/student and you are the adult/ teacher: 1) The problems with the relationship 2) How it makes you feel 3) How it makes you feel when he walks out 4) Your solutions for the problem - He needs to do x,y and z or you will be A- outsourcing OR B- walking out for good. (Whether you mean it or not he needs a scare in him) C- Failure for him to discuss this and seek help will result in ladies choice. 5) Tell him to think long and hard about what's important to him. I understand he is probably embarrassed and ashamed if it's a medical condition but if he loves you and wants to have a full life with you then he needs to get over the shame and grow up. On the other hand he could be wacking off to porn and he's intimacy averse or just is not capable of being with a real live woman. There are so msny possibilities but the bottom line is celibacy is not normal or acceptable and nobody has the right to make that unilateral decision for someone else. Eventually you will have to make a decision based on what you want for the rest of your time on Earth. Find your happiness. Looks like I have my homework assignment. Great information! Thank you so much for this thought out response. It is interesting because the advice I would give someone else would be so different from what I am currently doing. I sometimes look in the mirror and think "who are you and what have you become??"
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Post by eternaloptimism on Sept 11, 2016 10:41:58 GMT -5
I think that I would write a letter or an email in which you inform of of the following, think of them as learning goals because he is acting like a child/student and you are the adult/ teacher: 1) The problems with the relationship 2) How it makes you feel 3) How it makes you feel when he walks out 4) Your solutions for the problem - He needs to do x,y and z or you will be A- outsourcing OR B- walking out for good. (Whether you mean it or not he needs a scare in him) C- Failure for him to discuss this and seek help will result in ladies choice. 5) Tell him to think long and hard about what's important to him. I understand he is probably embarrassed and ashamed if it's a medical condition but if he loves you and wants to have a full life with you then he needs to get over the shame and grow up. On the other hand he could be wacking off to porn and he's intimacy averse or just is not capable of being with a real live woman. There are so msny possibilities but the bottom line is celibacy is not normal or acceptable and nobody has the right to make that unilateral decision for someone else. Eventually you will have to make a decision based on what you want for the rest of your time on Earth. Find your happiness. Looks like I have my homework assignment. Great information! Thank you so much for this thought out response. It is interesting because the advice I would give someone else would be so different from what I am currently doing. I sometimes look in the mirror and think "who are you and what have you become??" It's that realisation that will drive your journey. X
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 11, 2016 12:35:03 GMT -5
It is interesting because the advice I would give someone else would be so different from what I am currently doing. I sometimes look in the mirror and think "who are you and what have you become??" That's part of the FOG, Fear,Obligation,Guilt, That we all go through. Once that fog begins to lift, you get a different perspective. A feeling of self renewal. Finally, for once, thoughts of, " what about me? I have needs, desires, you took a pledge too! I have committed myself to only you, the only person on the planet that I can expect intimacy, love, and sex. You cannot force celibacy on me for your own selfish need. I am standing up for myself, with or without you." These thoughts are soon to be part of your life.
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Post by bballgirl on Sept 11, 2016 13:57:06 GMT -5
I think that I would write a letter or an email in which you inform of of the following, think of them as learning goals because he is acting like a child/student and you are the adult/ teacher: 1) The problems with the relationship 2) How it makes you feel 3) How it makes you feel when he walks out 4) Your solutions for the problem - He needs to do x,y and z or you will be A- outsourcing OR B- walking out for good. (Whether you mean it or not he needs a scare in him) C- Failure for him to discuss this and seek help will result in ladies choice. 5) Tell him to think long and hard about what's important to him. I understand he is probably embarrassed and ashamed if it's a medical condition but if he loves you and wants to have a full life with you then he needs to get over the shame and grow up. On the other hand he could be wacking off to porn and he's intimacy averse or just is not capable of being with a real live woman. There are so msny possibilities but the bottom line is celibacy is not normal or acceptable and nobody has the right to make that unilateral decision for someone else. Eventually you will have to make a decision based on what you want for the rest of your time on Earth. Find your happiness. Looks like I have my homework assignment. Great information! Thank you so much for this thought out response. It is interesting because the advice I would give someone else would be so different from what I am currently doing. I sometimes look in the mirror and think "who are you and what have you become??" Your welcome and the answers don't come over night they take time. You can provide him with opportunities to help himself and help the marriage. I asked my husband 3 times in a 5 year period to go to marriage counseling he always refused and avoided. The other part of it is if your husband WANTS to be intimate with you and this is probably a harder concept for you to face than him. I came to the realization finally that my husband didn't ever WANT sex with me but was WILLING when I got bitchy once a year. When I realized it, I no longer wanted him. It was too late. At that point I had a decision to make. I outsourced then I divorced. He didn't give a fuck for so long and I finally showed him what totally not giving a fuck looks like. Take your time but not too much time because months turn into years and years into decades. I was in a SM for 23 years. Set a time table for year self and lay your cards on the table.
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Post by becca on Sept 11, 2016 15:00:05 GMT -5
ballgirl- I have mentioned marriage counseling throughout the years too. It has always resulted in an immediate shut down of communication. I just don't think he cares about sex and honestly just expects me to always be around. Maybe it is ED but there are other ways to be intimate! I miss the intimacy. If it was a irreparable physical issue, we could get around that. I would settle for passionate kisses each night and then he could snuggle up and watch/help me release. And we could work on finding what areas were still sensitive for him. Sex is so much more than just penetration. It really all starts in the mind anyway. It is a sensual conversation.
You are right. I do need to set a deadline if I am ever going to have the chance to experience anything like that again.
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Post by Pinkberry on Sept 12, 2016 13:28:15 GMT -5
I don't think lack of communication skill is necessarily the problem. Refusal and/or apathy are the problems. My spouse refused more than sex. He also refused to discuss many issues. When we did discuss things, he often refused to be civil.
I agree with the article. Refusers are not putting forth any sort of effort towards the success of the marriage. I could give many examples in my personal experience, such as the jackass actually admitting that he purposely did not participate and at times derailed marriage counseling on purpose because he felt like OUR problems were actually MY problems.
Yep, he was a winner all around, but he is not really all that unique. I think refusal (unwillingness) to do what is necessary is pretty common.
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Post by itsjustus on Sept 12, 2016 18:55:09 GMT -5
I don't think lack of communication skill is necessarily the problem. Refusal and/or apathy are the problems. My spouse refused more than sex. He also refused to discuss many issues. When we did discuss things, he often refused to be civil. I agree with the article. Refusers are not putting forth any sort of effort towards the success of the marriage. I could give many examples in my personal experience, such as the jackass actually admitting that he purposely did not participate and at times derailed marriage counseling on purpose because he felt like OUR problems were actually MY problems. Yep, he was a winner all around, but he is not really all that unique. I think refusal (unwillingness) to do what is necessary is pretty common. I think you're right Pinkberry. He was a winner, but probably not that unique. Unwillingness to do what is necessary seems very common. But I might have to differ on communication skills. It seems he communicated quite well. Refusing to discuss many issues is pretty effective "communication". He was unwilling. Refusing to be civil is a very good form of (loud) communication. What you thought was crap, what he thought was what you should think. Got the point across... Admitting he sabotaged the marriage counseling on purpose....because they were your problems, not both of yours??? Got Cha.....loud and clear. He's a jackass. Now THATS communications!! (Btw...seriously?!?! He admitted that!?! Wow) There are some that can't seem to put two words together into a coherent sentence, but then again, they won't try either. They just walk away. And that....unfortunately....is a way of saying something. There are a lot of ways to communicate, its in the listening that's key.
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Post by Pinkberry on Sept 28, 2016 2:47:22 GMT -5
I don't think lack of communication skill is necessarily the problem. Refusal and/or apathy are the problems. My spouse refused more than sex. He also refused to discuss many issues. When we did discuss things, he often refused to be civil. I agree with the article. Refusers are not putting forth any sort of effort towards the success of the marriage. I could give many examples in my personal experience, such as the jackass actually admitting that he purposely did not participate and at times derailed marriage counseling on purpose because he felt like OUR problems were actually MY problems. Yep, he was a winner all around, but he is not really all that unique. I think refusal (unwillingness) to do what is necessary is pretty common. I think you're right Pinkberry . He was a winner, but probably not that unique. Unwillingness to do what is necessary seems very common. But I might have to differ on communication skills. It seems he communicated quite well. Refusing to discuss many issues is pretty effective "communication". He was unwilling. Refusing to be civil is a very good form of (loud) communication. What you thought was crap, what he thought was what you should think. Got the point across... Admitting he sabotaged the marriage counseling on purpose....because they were your problems, not both of yours??? Got Cha.....loud and clear. He's a jackass. Now THATS communications!! (Btw...seriously?!?! He admitted that!?! Wow) There are some that can't seem to put two words together into a coherent sentence, but then again, they won't try either. They just walk away. And that....unfortunately....is a way of saying something. There are a lot of ways to communicate, its in the listening that's key. Ah yes, I think we are in agreement. Initially, I did not understand his communication. That is not to say he lacked skills, or that I did, simply that we communicated differently. I communicated via direct talk. He communicated via refusing. In retrospect, he was loud and clear, but when you are in love and believe that your spouse does not want to hurt you, some things are not clear at all. They are confusing as Hell. In the long run though, communication was not our problem. I caught on to what he was "saying" via all of his refusing. (And yes, he did admit that he sabotaged counseling. Sadly, it was not the biggest jaw dropping moment we had.) But once I caught on, I really saw him and all of his actions and all of his communication for what they were. They added up to a complete unwillingness to contribute to the success of the relationship. If one person is unwilling to contribute, lingerie and dates and bacon scented candles and counseling and understanding the deep underlying mental illness codified way back in the jackass's formative years are all useless in repairing things. Communication was a key in my lack of understanding that the relationship was doomed. But once the communication was cleared up, it helped nothing. It is a factor to be sure since refusers are often vague on purpose. They leave hints that there might be hope on a number of fronts. They say nice things to obscure the nasty things they say. But in itself, communication is not the killer. It is like saying that lack of exercise killed a smoker who developed heart disease and COPD and who eventually died of respiratory failure, hastened by the heart disease. We can discuss the lack of exercise all day. It is certainly a factor. But that person could have exercised all the live long day for an entire life, however long it might have been, but the exercise would never have been able to overcome the smoking that ultimately led to the death. It might have extended the person's life or given it a subjectively higher quality, but it wouldn't have saved the person from premature and painful death due to the smoking.
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Post by csl on Sept 28, 2016 7:17:05 GMT -5
I would love more communication. If we could have an honest talk about what is going on and go from there. For all I know, it is a physical problem that is completely beyond his control. Ok. I can handle that. But the constant rejection with no communication drives me over the edge. When I approach him about it he will flat out say, "I'm done here." and leave the room. Or "here you go again" and leave the house. That's when you change the locks and leave a suitcase on the front step. He gets to come back when he's willing to sit down with a counselor.
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