|
|
Post by Dan on Jul 19, 2016 7:36:56 GMT -5
My wife and I had a meltdown discussion this Sunday; she was working on the household budget. The "argument" wasn't about money (we're pretty closely aligned on how we prioritize our spending) as much as it was an argument about how we discuss money.
I was answering specific questions of hers about bank balances and such. We were actually working well together. Then she noticed our grocery spending was particularly high last month, and called me to task on it. (I do the majority of the grocery shopping.) When I considered her points, I pushed back on those that I disagreed with (which was most of them). But she took my analytical tone as critical of her, got very defensive (even though she was the one needlessly scolding me).
I tried those therapist-recommended techniques of turning the discussion around: asking her for specific things I could do differently (better) about the grocery budget. Then when she was getting frustrated about how I was discussing the matter, I asked her for specific things I could do differently (better) in how I was discussing that. Neither question was met with positive, specific, constructive suggestions.
She then proceeded to tell me how awful I was in that discussion, and how it is characteristic of how I interact with her: sarcastic, "always have to win", egotistical. I know I can get very intense in a discussion when I have a different opinion as others, but it was VERY hurtful to me to hear she thinks those things of me after 28 years of loving cooperation, because I don't think I'm any of those. In my hurt, I was in a stunned daze -- really down -- for the next few hours.
I think what is going on is she is -- consciously or unconsciously -- getting the vibe that her husband doesn't love her like he used to... which is true. I think it scares her, and she is sometimes acting very defensively. But the distance is my form of "self protection"; I've trained myself to "not want her" (physical intimacy) since that has lead to so much disappointment.
It's not that we are constantly fighting. Fortunately, that type of argument/meltdown is NOT common. (Maybe once every few months?) But I don't see a way to break the spiral. I think most of the trust between us is gone: I don't trust that she wants the type of intimacy that I want; she doesn't trust me that I am "committed to staying/making it work" (which is her precondition to more intimacy). I have neither the energy to try build that trust back up, nor the motivation -- as I don't think we'll "get back to happy with each other". So the holding pattern remains until it is time to make a move.
|
|
|
|
Post by baza on Jul 19, 2016 7:56:15 GMT -5
"So the holding pattern remains until it is time to make a move."
That's a great summary Brother dan.
-
I guess your preparations to be ready for that move are starting to come together by now.
There's probably not much else to do now, but fine tune your exit strategy.
-
Meantime it might be worthwhile thinking on this - -
It reads like you are taking a lot of things she says personally (hard not to really I guess), but probably, it is just her being her rather than being specifically designed to slight you.
"If" you could keep in mind that what she says ain't personal, it can be helpful in managing these exchanges (bloody hard to keep up that even handed mindset tho).
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Jul 19, 2016 8:28:33 GMT -5
It reads like you are taking a lot of things she says personally (hard not to really I guess), but probably, it is just her being her rather than being specifically designed to slight you. Thanks, Baz. I guess I identify with the "place" she is in, as I was SQUARELY in the same place for a few years: hypersenstive that any comment or request to do things a tiny bit differently were tantamount to criticism. I think I've let that go in large measure... which sounds good, except that it means "distance" -- and maybe even "apathy" -- about the marriage has set in. I do 100% agree that she is not intending to be spiteful to me; that is not in her nature. Nor do I feel it is in mine; the fact that she no longer sees/assumes that is just another indication of how far off the rails our relationship has come. |
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Jul 19, 2016 8:28:51 GMT -5
So you listen. You hear that the amount is higher than usual. Then you ask for specifics on how to change it, and do it better,( lower the bill?).
So far so good, right? Sounds , caring, open minded, willing to compromise.
Did you get even one specific recommendation, and was it going to lower the bill?
Instead she took it as being critical and got scolded. Also that you are awful and always have to win?
Does she not want to answer specifics because that means taking a leadership role? Making decisions on spending,( on something as simple as having 5 different kinds of ice cream in the house at the same time) can be a reflection of deeper problems.
Is this another double bind? She likes that you take care of it all, but doesn't like the way you do certain things. You ask what are those few things. You are supposed to take care of that yourself, so she doesn't have to get involved. So now all the other 98 percent of what you do involving all the grocery buying means nothing because you asked for her to get involved?
I should dig out that old article about the husband who buys the wrong hamburger meat, 30 percent lean not 20 percent lean, and is told what a miserable failure he is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Jul 19, 2016 8:42:07 GMT -5
greatcoastal : pretty much! As for the details of the grocery discussion (not that it matters): - I agreed we are possibly spending too much if: we have food going to waste; we are buying the "expensive brand" when a cheaper one would do; we buy stuff we don't use at all; we eat too much of something just because we are "well stocked" at home. I told her my way of looking at this, and asked for a specific example of where we were regularly committing any one of those mistakes. She was unable to provide a specific example... but I'm the "bad guy" and not "arguing fair" because I'm poking a hole in her basic tenant "we're spending too much". - At the end of our discussion, I looked back at prior monthly amounts we've spent at this discount club; while it is true LAST month's amount was high, our AVERAGE monthly spending is very reasonable (which she agreed to). So I really think this was an anomalous month; NOT a pattern of excessive spending that needs even a comment, much less a correction! - She DID IN FACT balk that I keep "too many kinds of nuts" in the house. Look, if we eat one big jar of nuts every two weeks, and I rotate varieties, yes, at some point we might have three varieties around. That doesn't mean were spending more! - Plus -- from the "healthy snack" point of view -- better nuts than cookies, chips, etc! - I did ask "do you want to do the grocery shopping?" After I asked, I realized it "came out bad"... but the point I wanted to make was legit: "If you want me to take on this task, I will use my discretion; I'm not going to check every individual purchase with you." MAYBE that is worth revisiting with her. - Yes, if you can find that article, please post a link! Not sure if I will share it or not, but I'm interested.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2016 9:14:52 GMT -5
So, she didn't like the way you were discussing the grocery bill. You then asked her how she would like you to do this differently. She didn't really answer your question, but continued to make the whole situation your fault.
Did I get that right?
She seems to be investing this with more emotion than it needs. So for her, it isn't really about the grocery bill. It isn't really about how you discuss the grocery bill, either.
Do you feel brave enough to tell her this - and ask her what's really bothering her?
|
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Jul 19, 2016 9:18:50 GMT -5
greatcoastal : pretty much! As for the details of the grocery discussion (not that it matters): - I agreed we are possibly spending too much if: we have food going to waste; we are buying the "expensive brand" when a cheaper one would do; we buy stuff we don't use at all; we eat too much of something just because we are "well stocked" at home. I told her my way of looking at this, and asked for a specific example of where we were regularly committing any one of those mistakes. She was unable to provide a specific example... but I'm the "bad guy" and not "arguing fair" because I'm poking a hole in her basic tenant "we're spending too much". - At the end of our discussion, I looked back at prior monthly amounts we've spent at this discount club; while it is true LAST month's amount was high, our AVERAGE monthly spending is very reasonable (which she agreed to). So I really think this was an anomalous month; NOT a pattern of excessive spending that needs even a comment, much less a correction! - She DID IN FACT balk that I keep "too many kinds of nuts" in the house. Look, if we eat one big jar of nuts every two weeks, and I rotate varieties, yes, at some point we might have three varieties around. That doesn't mean were spending more! - Plus -- from the "healthy snack" point of view -- better nuts than cookies, chips, etc! - I did ask "do you want to do the grocery shopping?" After I asked, I realized it "came out bad"... but the point I wanted to make was legit: "If you want me to take on this task, I will use my discretion; I'm not going to check every individual purchase with you." MAYBE that is worth revisiting with her. - Yes, if you can find that article, please post a link! Not sure if I will share it or not, but I'm interested. the articles tittle is "I Wasn't Treating My Husband Fairly, And It Wasn't Fair" by Miss Fran Jan San Dec. 28, 2014. On a side note, Dan, my kids started whining about certain things that I failed to buy. So I told them, " there's a note pad on the ref. if you want something specific from the grocery store wright it down, I go every Sun." after a few weeks of having an empty pad, and bringing home what I deem as essentials, (snacks for my own secret stash!) the pad is starting to get used! it's a constant battle, but the pad is always there, all I have to do is remind them with the question, did you wright it down, and you can always go with me, I like having you with me, and I can use the help! I also invite them to go with me to the store so I have a better idea of what they want. Once there was a time when the wife and I went grocery shopping together, and actually enjoyed each others company, and being seen together. Those days are gone. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Jul 19, 2016 9:29:24 GMT -5
So, she didn't like the way you were discussing the grocery bill. You then asked her how she would like you to do this differently. She didn't really answer your question, but continued to make the whole situation your fault. Did I get that right? She seems to be investing this with more emotion than it needs. So for her, it isn't really about the grocery bill. It isn't really about how you discuss the grocery bill, either. Do you feel brave enough to tell her this - and ask her what's really bothering her? Yes, I think you have it about right. Yes, there IS something else bothering her: she is very unhappy in her current job; she is having trouble finding different work (has had some minor recent rejections on that front); she feels if we spent less, she'd have the option to stop working, or take a less-stressful lower-paying job, or retire sooner. (She's 58.) And she is worried that her husband no longer loves her and might leave her; that is not a small worry of hers. My therapist -- who recommended I read "Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars" (which I still haven't gotten to) -- suggests this is a pretty classic "Venus/Mars" discussion wreck. She is EMOTIONALLY in touch with her job woes, financial concerns, and marital woes. The "grocery discussion" is a proxy for "I'm unhappy". But I'm approaching it as a male/Mars "problem that should be looked at logically", and focusing on FIXING "the grocery problem" (or in my case, arguing LOGICALLY that it isn't even a problem). I think that is actually probably on target, and it is what I think you (@smartkat ) is getting at. Perhaps I can revisit this later in the week, and expressly ask about this angle; see if she agrees. After all, I DO want to keep the peace for the time being. I'm NOT trying to stir the shit or "win" or "be right" about the groceries for the sake of it. |
|
|
|
Post by petrushka on Jul 19, 2016 9:43:00 GMT -5
I am with Smartkat on this one.
In my experience trying to start a meta-discussion about that kind of trainwreck-discussion often only leads to more upset. She may well end up
feeling that you're now questioning her ability to have a sensible discussion at all, at all.
I think this is one of those situations where you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. I'd be tempted to let the sleeping dogs lie.
Telling her how that made you feel, the 'stunned daze', that might be more promising if you want to get anything out of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by bballgirl on Jul 19, 2016 9:46:40 GMT -5
I think you are spot on with her realization that you are both on a plane heading on a downward spiral. You are both at different stages. You have probably worked further through the fact that the plane will crash then she has. She may be just starting the detachment phase whereas you are further along. As detachment grows there is less tolerance. So things that maybe we didn't argue about before now we don't bite our tongue on then comes sarcasm, name calling, drifting further and further apart, etc. A downward spiral. You maybe have your parachute in view or in your hand whereas she is thinking hmmm I better look for the parachute. As baza always suggests get your ducks in a row, even for her because that effects your kids, and pack your parachute well. As far as the argument about money and groceries and then it spinning off, not uncommon in a marriage going downhill. I coped with avoidance, little communication as possible, keeping peace for the kids sake in the house until the jump out of the plane. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Jul 19, 2016 14:08:51 GMT -5
I should dig out that old article about the husband who buys the wrong hamburger meat, 30 percent lean not 20 percent lean, and is told what a miserable failure he is. I found a link to a repost of that article: I Wasn't Treating My Husband Fairly, And It Wasn't FairI don't think it exactly applies to my situation; my wife doesn't regularly scold me for inadequate performance on household matters. I can see much more clearly now (48 hours later) that it really was about finances, in a Venus ("i'm feeling bad about our finances") versus Mars ("let me convince you why my grocery habits are not a big contributor to our financial woes") sort of way. That said, I would definitely pass that article on to either women or men who I felt were in a hen-pecked situation. |
|
|
|
Post by unmatched on Jul 19, 2016 20:53:07 GMT -5
I think most of the trust between us is gone: I don't trust that she wants the type of intimacy that I want; she doesn't trust me that I am "committed to staying/making it work" (which is her precondition to more intimacy). I have neither the energy to try build that trust back up, nor the motivation -- as I don't think we'll "get back to happy with each other". So the holding pattern remains until it is time to make a move. I think this paragraph says it. But it isn't about trust, it is about both of you knowing the truth. She doesn't want the type of intimacy you want. You are no longer committed to staying/making it work. You can't promise that you will stay if things don't change, and let's be honest if you stay things probably won't change. And I don't think she can promise that if you become unconditionally committed to the marriage she will give you the intimacy you need. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 3:02:06 GMT -5
"she doesn't trust me that I am "committed to staying/making it work" (which is her precondition to more intimacy)..."
There is no precondition to intimacy. Intimacy in marriage isn't something you have to earn.
This is my "fuck that" for today.
|
|
