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Post by baza on Jul 12, 2016 1:30:46 GMT -5
I was just idly thinking about this group (Sexless Marriage Issues) and the other group the moderators have thoughtfully provided "Other Relationship Issues" as it seems to me that just about all the stories in here belong in that "Other Relationship Issues".
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My thinking goes along these lines.
The lack of sex common to us all is rarely ever the main problem, but is most definitely a highly visible symptom of a deeper malaise.
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In this, and the old EP ILIASM group, it is seen time after time as members stories get fleshed out.
There is stuff like -
"Addiction to Prescription Drugs" - (plus no sex)
"Financial Irresponsibility" - (plus no sex)
"Narcissistic Behaviour" - (plus no sex)
"Physical Problems" - real or imagined - (plus no sex)
"Mental Issues" - (plus no sex)
"Passive Aggressive Behaviour" - (plus no sex)
"Porn Addiction" - (plus no sex)
"Emotional Abandonment" - (plus no sex)
"Gambling Addiction" - (plus no sex)
"PTSD" - (plus no sex)
"Emotional Abuse" - (plus no sex)
"Physical Abuse" - (plus no sex)
"Alcohol / Drug Addiction" - (plus no sex)
"Cheating" - (plus no sex)
"Controlling Behaviour" - (plus no sex)
"Dropped on Head as an Infant" - (plus no sex)
"insert your particular favourite here" - (plus no sex)
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I think it was Sister SmartKat who observed a couple of weeks ago that - "there's a lot of things I could have put up with if there had at least been some decent sex" (hope I haven't mis-quoted you here SmartKat) - and I think there's a whole lot of truth in that observation.
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I can't recall too many (*edit - make that "any") situations where the EP ILIASM or member of this group left "because of the sex" and only that reason.
People just don't do that (although as a sidebar, it seems to be a perfectly good reason to me)
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Rather, I think what happens is the member eventually takes a full and frank inventory of their situation and identifies the real issue. And that real issue (plus no sex) can be the catalyst to get out.
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So, that's my thinking - the real issue is not the sex - and I put it up for the membership to debate and kick the shit out of.
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 12, 2016 2:14:35 GMT -5
I'd side with @smartkat's logic... So much more can be tolerated when there is intimacy in the relationship. It's when the intimacy / passion is gone that those other defects start grating on people.
I personally have quite a collection of traits that can cause friction, despite efforts to keep them in check. We all do, and it's foolish to believe otherwise. But oil the gears with strong intimacy, and those traits aren't a big deal.
However... When the oil runs low, the friction increases and they become a big deal. In mechanical terms, things overheat, permanent damage can occur, and things come to a grinding halt.
It's the chicken or egg... Lack of intimacy is a symptom, but it's also an amplifier that makes the root issue even bigger. Which makes the intimacy problem worse, which makes the root issue an even bigger irritant, and so on.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2016 2:30:20 GMT -5
My shrink said your penis is a good barometer of your overall health. I think that applies to relationships. If you have bad or no sex, the relationship is probably ill. I would speculate that some couples in ill relationships have lots of sex, but it is in these cases not likely to be mutually satisfying. I knew a woman who loved sex (and was really hot, talk about a missed opportunity) and was involved with a hyper macho man who pretty much demanded it. It probably wasn't very fun being a psycho's sex toy. I had kinky sex with a woman who I eventually came to realize used sex to punish herself. I'm not going to go off on my usual tirade about her, but despite her glee in being used like a motel whore (well I really loved her, her client didn't, okay no tirade), I think even during sex she felt lonely. We had colorful sex that would have blown 50 Shades of Vanilla out of the dungeon, but our relationship was hopeless and frustrating for both of us, and she really wanted punishment instead of intimacy. Now I'm with a walking orthopedic nightmare and we're limited to two positions and not much flexibility and hey I'm an old geezer but I'd trade all the sex I ever had for more of this. So even with lots of sex, if the relationship is ill the sex will probably be unsatisfying or psychotic. Good satisfying healthy sex is mostly found in good satisfying healthy relationships. And it's 3:30 in the morning.
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Post by pfviento on Jul 12, 2016 3:20:33 GMT -5
I was just idly thinking about this group (Sexless Marriage Issues) and the other group the moderators have thoughtfully provided "Other Relationship Issues" as it seems to me that just about all the stories in here belong in that "Other Relationship Issues". - My thinking goes along these lines. The lack of sex common to us all is rarely ever the main problem, but is most definitely a highly visible symptom of a deeper malaise. - In this, and the old EP ILIASM group, it is seen time after time as members stories get fleshed out. There is stuff like - "Addiction to Prescription Drugs" - (plus no sex) "Financial Irresponsibility" - (plus no sex) "Narcissistic Behaviour" - (plus no sex) "Physical Problems" - real or imagined - (plus no sex) "Mental Issues" - (plus no sex) "Passive Aggressive Behaviour" - (plus no sex) "Emotional Abandonment" - (plus no sex) "Gambling Addiction" - (plus no sex) "Emotional Abuse" - (plus no sex) "Physical Abuse" - (plus no sex) "Alcohol / Drug Addiction" - (plus no sex) "Cheating" - (plus no sex) "Controlling Behaviour" - (plus no sex) "insert your particular favourite here" - (plus no sex) - I think it was Sister SmartKat who observed a couple of weeks ago that - "there's a lot of things I could have put up with if there had at least been some decent sex" (hope I haven't mis-quoted you here SmartKat) - and I think there's a whole lot of truth in that observation. - I can't recall too many (*edit - make that "any") situations where the EP ILIASM or member of this group left "because of the sex" and only that reason. People just don't do that (although as a sidebar, it seems to be a perfectly good reason to me) - Rather, I think what happens is the member eventually takes a full and frank inventory of their situation and identifies the real issue. And that real issue (plus no sex) can be the catalyst to get out. - So, that's my thinking - the real issue is not the sex - and I put it up for the membership to debate and kick the shit out of. Well they still have the common denominator of there being no sex or very little sex. It just turns out there a wide variety of reasons why that is the case. Some of us may not be exactly sure why that is the case. If they find this forum though my guess is they are not searching for answers to "Fixing Controlling Behavior" or "Cheating" or most of the other reasons. I'm not sure many of those issues are the sole cause of no sex since I have the misfortune of knowing a few people with some of those issues who still at least find time to give their spouses some intimacy. Then again I don't know many that want to admit to the world they are in a SM. This is an interesting question on whether the Sex is the primary problem or the secondary issue. I suspect that answer might vary from person to person. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 12, 2016 8:34:16 GMT -5
From your list my ex had 8 of those dysfunctional traits that I lived with plus no sex. There were different dysfunctional behaviors at different times and I lived with him for 23 years. I can attest to I probably would still be married if he had sex with me once a month. I'm actually thankful now that he didn't because while no sex was the biggest deal breaker for me, and I don't know what that says about me ?- I don't see that as such a bad thing about me, I am thankful that he didn't have sex with me because that one idea of being celibate is what convinced me to leave when I was financially able to do it.
So the SM deal breaker freed me from all of the other dysfunctional issues with our relationship.
I'm also thankful I outsourced because it allowed me to experience what normal, giving, intimate, passionate sex looks like. It gave me a comparison which also made me realize celibacy is not an option for my life.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 10:38:47 GMT -5
What I actually said is: He [my ex] has flaws, but the sex made the flaws a lot easier to put up with. I like DryCreek's way of putting it, too. The sex is like the oil that your car engine needs. |
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Post by wewbwb on Jul 13, 2016 19:57:44 GMT -5
It is never a good idea to start a relationship while hiding issues and /or not communicating the truth . Or stopping communication at any point in the relationship.
How many of these issues could be resolved if both partners are dedicated and want it to work? How often is full and total commitment abandoned because of things that if caught early and talked out,never get resolved and fester?
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Post by nyartgal on Jul 13, 2016 20:17:45 GMT -5
I'm of the opinion that it's not usually about the sex. In fact, I would say that the percentage of people on EP or here who are married to someone with mental health issues is far above average. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Personally, I wouldn't have stayed with my ex if we had been having regular sex, but it can't be separated from all of his other problems and the fact that he refused to deal with them: depression, ED, passive aggression, etc. Sex was a symptom of all of these.
I can't say enough that when you are in a relationship without sex issues, sex is not the weapon by which your spouse punishes you. It's just sex.
So if you have normal disagreements or issues, like all couples do, you talk about them and deal with them and the sex pretty much continues unaffected. It has nothing to do with the fact that your spouse doesn't wash the dishes or forgot to buy your mother a birthday card or whatever.
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Post by Pinkberry on Jul 15, 2016 19:53:05 GMT -5
The chicken or the egg, that is the question. I love the oil analogy. There are a lot of things that will make a car quit running, but some things cause damage and seize that engine up rather than peter out over time and get repaired. The oil is a necessary lubricant to make everything else go right and I should say that it's not just sex, but sex and intimacy. Some claim they still have intimacy, but that is not the same and it can't be substituted long term, neither can sex alone without any intimacy. They really are one product with multiple capabilities just as oil provides more than one thing to the engine of the car. They are so very similar if you think about it. Oil and sex/intimacy both ensure that things run smoothly, prevent overheating, and prevent accumulation of gunk that inhibits good performance.
If the oil is there, it is easy to service/repair other problems typically. Lack of oil alone is a huge issue, but reset sex is like an oil change at 10k miles. That thing was bone dry and on the verge of dying beforehand and now is running great, but it won't be long before it's back in sad shape. The other issues which too might be enough to kill the car are magnified in the presence of lack of oil and are often more visible issues such as a transmission leaking all over. You can see that all over your driveway and so can everyone else. It draws immediate attention and is an acute focus.
Great, great analogy. I feel like I could run with that for quite a way. But, in the long run, does it matter? I think most of you know that my vote is no. Not really. The bottom line is that you have a spouse unwilling to meet your needs and begging, crying, threatening, counseling, lingerie, and bacon scented candles cannot fix the matter. The why is perhaps a frustrating mystery. But knowing the why is not a fix, so I ask, why bother with why? Why bother with the chicken or the egg debate? The real question is always the same. Will you stay, leave, or outsource?
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 15, 2016 20:54:46 GMT -5
Pinkberry, I think while we're in it, we want to know the "why" because we believe that somehow we could fix it. Without knowing why, we're reluctant to give up the fight, even if experienced folks are telling us the battle is already lost.
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Post by Pinkberry on Jul 15, 2016 21:59:54 GMT -5
Pinkberry , I think while we're in it, we want to know the "why" because we believe that somehow we could fix it. Without knowing why, we're reluctant to give up the fight, even if experienced folks are telling us the battle is already lost. True enough. I'm speaking from the side of being out. Out is better. Why never mattered. Some things can't be fixed. For the people struggling to understand and struggling to come up with this year's version of bacon scented candles, I hope to simply offer some insight. When people are unwilling to discuss and unwilling to change, they why doesn't matter. In our collective experiences here, few refusers are willing to try anything significantly different. I get the urge to seek out the why initially, but when all the dates, counseling, candles, and so forth have come and gone, it's time to come to terms with the fact that change is unlikely to occur on the part of the refuser and the refused has to ask themselves if they can live in a SM forever. I know it's harsh sounding to some, but sometimes it is what is needed. |
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 15, 2016 22:14:25 GMT -5
True enough. I'm speaking from the side of being out. Out is better. Why never mattered. Some things can't be fixed. I agree completely. Statistically, the odds are monumentally against recovering a sexless marriage. Even in the face of that knowledge, it's hard to accept. (We all hope to be that exception to the rule.) Emotional attachment is a bitch. It's hard enough to muster the fortitude to put a pet to sleep, even when you know it's overdue. Many of us are slightly more attached to our marriages. ;-) |
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Post by baza on Jul 15, 2016 22:29:44 GMT -5
There's a fair amount of truth in that.
Most people arrive here thinking that their situation is unique and different to all the others.
Then, if the realisation comes that their situation is NOT unique and different to the rest, most people then think that their situation is capable of being like Time4Living@'s situation and is going to be the 1 in 1,000 that is capable of doing a 180.
999 times out of 1,000, they are wrong.
And all the while, the clock keeps ticking.
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Post by Pinkberry on Jul 15, 2016 22:39:49 GMT -5
True enough. I'm speaking from the side of being out. Out is better. Why never mattered. Some things can't be fixed. I agree completely. Statistically, the odds are monumentally against recovering a sexless marriage. Even in the face of that knowledge, it's hard to accept. (We all hope to be that exception to the rule.) Emotional attachment is a bitch. It's hard enough to muster the fortitude to put a pet to sleep, even when you know it's overdue. Many of us are slightly more attached to our marriages. ;-) Good description, though I got a lot more enjoyment out of my cat than I did out of my marriage to the refuser. Perhaps we should rethink who is fit for consideration of euthanasia. |
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