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Post by holdfast on Mar 15, 2023 22:21:26 GMT -5
Thoughts on "sleeptouching" (semi-conscious, intimate but not intentionally - or necessarily - sexual contact)?
Since we first shared a bed 36 years ago, I have felt that the sweetest part of sleeping together is being able to reach out in the dark and feel the comfort of each other’s presence. To know that she is there and to let her know that I am here, that we are together, safe, in our home. Whatever dreams or night terrors come are dispersed and fade away, and we can drift back into sleep. Until last Friday I believed that this was one of the greatest blessings of marriage, and that our bed was a special refuge of solace, peace, and joy.
Then my wife told me that this sleeptouching has been making her feel "used like a toy", disrespected, and forsaken or unwanted. Still trying to grok that last bit, since she has abandoned me sexually for these past 10 years. She said it happens much more frequently than I realize, because I often don't wake up enough to remember it.
I was shocked and dismayed - horrified is not an exaggeration - to realize that this is her experience. So, I have been sleeping on the sofa since then because I don't know how to keep myself from reaching out in my sleep, and I refuse to risk making her feel that way again.
It has been a disorienting and surreal week...everything looks different, sounds different, feels different like a putting on a stiff starched shirt or looking at overexposed black and white photos.
Another in the string of earthquakes that have been crumbling this relationship over these past few years.
What do you think about "sleeptouching"? Pro or anti?
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Post by angeleyes65 on Mar 16, 2023 7:32:07 GMT -5
I love touching when we sleep. My ex however sometimes touched me in sexual ways * I thought he was awake. Then quit because he fell into a deeper sleep and left me frustrated then I couldn't sleep. So it depends on what kind of touching. She makes it sound like more than touching her hand or arm in the first part but the 2nd comments make no sense either way. Sucks that you are out of the bed. How about a body pillow between you. That's what I did when after being refused so long I didn't want him touching me. Started out for knee surgery but then I kept it like that
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Post by blunder8 on Mar 16, 2023 9:00:49 GMT -5
A big yes to this. As you described it is comforting to touch, either consciously or not, your significant other. My longtime refuser has never complained about this and I'm very "touchy." Odd that she would tolerate my wandering hands in bed, but for so long could not make the advance to having sex. (We're now recovering from SM, doing well, and I will update at a later time).
I can imagine the hurt you feel for being scolded for this.
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 16, 2023 17:00:53 GMT -5
My experience has been that refusers aren't into sleep touching. When in bed, I'd touch my refuser ex he would move in his sleep all the way to the other end of the bed so he was almost falling off. When I finally started sleeping on the couch, he never commented about it.
Post SM lover fondles and cuddles me in my sleep. One time he woke up, pulled me close, and said, "I just want to keep you safe." Most of the time I love being close to him like that in bed. The exception is when either he's snoring in my ear or it's really hot. We don't use our air conditioning in the hot season, and he throws off a lot of heat.
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 16, 2023 18:02:11 GMT -5
...my wife told me that this sleeptouching has been making her feel "used like a toy", disrespected, and forsaken or unwanted. ... She said it happens much more frequently than I realize, because I often don't wake up enough to remember it. I was shocked and dismayed - horrified is not an exaggeration - to realize that this is her experience. So, I have been sleeping on the sofa since then because I don't know how to keep myself from reaching out in my sleep, and I refuse to risk making her feel that way again. It has been a disorienting and surreal week...everything looks different, sounds different, feels different like a putting on a stiff starched shirt or looking at overexposed black and white photos. Another in the string of earthquakes that have been crumbling this relationship over these past few years. What do you think about "sleeptouching"? Pro or anti? Like Angeleyes65, this made no sense to me. You're touching her, but she feels unwanted and forsaken. Hmmmm-kay. If you wanted her....you wouldn't touch her? Sounds more like she was trying to say a whole mix of things to get you to stop, logical or not. You obliged dramatically. Not a bad move, on your part, I would think. Sleeptouching...touching someone who is asleep. Problematic. Did it twice, she didn't wake up, felt like garbage. I think "The Talk" must have been within a few months after that. I did not like what I'd become. It was pathological at that point. I was way overdue for drawing a line. I get it...the aching longing, but I dare say until invited back, you may be in the right place. If you don't get invited back, I suspect she's divorced you. There's just no paper with signatures on it. I would be curious if there's some behavior you could avoid that could make her feel "wanted", yet not "disrespected and used". Not super curious mind you, because I'm concerned it may be horse manure and she's not planning to be intimate no matter what you do. But I'd hate to miss an opportunity if there's truly a boundary that's no big deal not to cross and clear communication could help her relax a bit. Problem is, the whole conversation puts you in a place that resembles groveling. That may be part of the problem. Even if divorce isn't in the plans, preparing as though it were, might be good. Hit the gym, get some hobbies, catch up with old friends, join a club, visit a meetup or two.... build a life that doesn't include her. Doesn't mean you leave, but helps if you later decide that you must. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 3, 2023 11:10:29 GMT -5
Then my wife told me that this sleeptouching has been making her feel "used like a toy", disrespected, and forsaken or unwanted. Still trying to grok that last bit, since she has abandoned me sexually for these past 10 years. She said it happens much more frequently than I realize, because I often don't wake up enough to remember it.[...] What do you think about "sleeptouching"? Pro or anti? The language she's using is nuclear-threat level intensity. It's the language of rape. I recall a similar thing coming up in couples' therapy in my own situation, and it briefly made the therapist drop the mask and ask if we wanted to throw in the towel on it. He said this is a very common thing, he'd seen it many times, and it never ends well (and we were no exception). To be clear, it doesn't mean that this is what was actually happening, but rather that any bid for affection (even non-sexual, benign) would be perceived as "using like a toy or a piece of meat". When said without a hint of reflection as to the impact on you, it likely means the level of disconnection has reached disgusted or contempt levels, and is so intense for her that she must believe you are aware of it as well. Which means when you touch her, or you put yourself in a situation where touching might happen, you are doing it with a person who CLEARLY doesn't want any of it with you. From her standpoint, it gets used to make her think that there's something twisted with YOU in that you will seek this out with someone who doesn't want it. It becomes further evidence of how contemptable she thinks you are. "I was trying to sleep and this guy groped me all night when I told him I didn't want it." From your standpoint, it takes you at your most vulnerable and compromised place - you've chosen to sleep beside this person - and it's now twisted into something monstrous. And you've already ceded so much ground. "All I did was fall asleep beside my wife, and I woke up to basically a sexual assault accusation" It's a very tough place to be in - and heartbreaking. |
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Post by heelots on Apr 3, 2023 15:27:28 GMT -5
Then my wife told me that this sleeptouching has been making her feel "used like a toy", disrespected, and forsaken or unwanted. Still trying to grok that last bit, since she has abandoned me sexually for these past 10 years. She said it happens much more frequently than I realize, because I often don't wake up enough to remember it.[...] What do you think about "sleeptouching"? Pro or anti? The language she's using is nuclear-threat level intensity. It's the language of rape. I recall a similar thing coming up in couples' therapy in my own situation, and it briefly made the therapist drop the mask and ask if we wanted to throw in the towel on it. He said this is a very common thing, he'd seen it many times, and it never ends well (and we were no exception). To be clear, it doesn't mean that this is what was actually happening, but rather that any bid for affection (even non-sexual, benign) would be perceived as "using like a toy or a piece of meat". When said without a hint of reflection as to the impact on you, it likely means the level of disconnection has reached disgusted or contempt levels, and is so intense for her that she must believe you are aware of it as well. Which means when you touch her, or you put yourself in a situation where touching might happen, you are doing it with a person who CLEARLY doesn't want any of it with you. From her standpoint, it gets used to make her think that there's something twisted with YOU in that you will seek this out with someone who doesn't want it. It becomes further evidence of how contemptable she thinks you are. "I was trying to sleep and this guy groped me all night when I told him I didn't want it." From your standpoint, it takes you at your most vulnerable and compromised place - you've chosen to sleep beside this person - and it's now twisted into something monstrous. And you've already ceded so much ground. "All I did was fall asleep beside my wife, and I woke up to basically a sexual assault accusation" It's a very tough place to be in - and heartbreaking. If you have not already done so I would suggest it is move to another room and bed if possible. I do not mean to be insensitive though I know it could be taken that way with my following comment. You probably already know that your marriage is for all practical purposes in name only and essentially done. The sooner you accept this and start looking at her as a roommate and not a wife the easier it will be for you. Then you can accept the fact in your mind that there is not, nor will there ever be anything physical between you again. Once you reach this point you are left with several options identified as follows. 1) Divorce her 2) choose to cheat/outsource with or without her knowledge or consent. 3) Or choose to stay as a roommate and see to your own needs without stepping out of the marriage. Others might see things differently than me, to each their own but that is about the size of it as I see things. I have been serving my marital prison sentence for the last 25 years choosing option three, not out of choice but by necessity. I can say that once I stopped sharing a bed with her and relegated her to roommate status in my mind it removed a lot of stress from the situation for me. Especially important in doing this was accepting the fact that the sexual part of our marriage is gone and will not be returning. YMMV |
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 4, 2023 20:30:13 GMT -5
holdfast said: ".my wife told me that this sleeptouching has been making her feel "used like a toy", disrespected, and forsaken or unwanted. ... She said it happens much more frequently than I realize, because I often don't wake up enough to remember it.
I was shocked and dismayed - horrified is not an exaggeration - to realize that this is her experience. So, I have been sleeping on the sofa since then because I don't know how to keep myself from reaching out in my sleep, and I refuse to risk making her feel that way again."
Think of her only as a roommate. You wouldn't share a bed with a mere roommate. Find a comfortable place for yourself to sleep apart from the woman whom you are rooming with. She is telling you loud and clear that she has no sexual interest in you and even being touched by you makes her miserable. Admit to yourself that the sexual part of your marriage is over. Treat her like she's your sister or just a roommate.
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