Lost, Confused and Sad

The fact that she can say if you cheat I will take the kids and the house really says a lot about her lack of love.
I was no longer in love with my ex but I made sure the split was equitable so we could still both provide for the kids.
Is your state a 50/50 state? Nowadays for a father not to get 50/50 is rare unless you work schedule prevented you from it. I say screw her one last time but not in the sexual way! Sorry if that was too much but she's not a nice person to say that.

Sufferinhubby... I echo what Bballgirl said... It seems to me that your W has a lack of love.  She is married to you because she is getting what *she* wants out of the marriage relationship (financial stability, perhaps kids, etc.).  She may "like" you or she may love you just a little (platonic affection for a good friend or family member) but she doesn't love you as a spouse should, or as you deserve.  True love between spouses involves each spouse *giving* to the other what *that* person wants or needs.   When your W mentions things like "cheat on me and I'll take the kids and the house" it also shows how she wants to control you.  That ended the conversation, right?  She had the last say?  She admitted that she "used" sex to attract a mate.  She's getting what she wants.  You could argue that maybe she said that when she was upset and she really didn't mean it but just wanted to get *you* upset.  But that's unlikely.  Why?  Because there are multiple instances that all indicate she wants to *control* you and just get what she wants out of the relationship.  You are a friend to her.  What you do at this point is up to you.  I am a rare bird that turned around a SM to that point where I feel loved enough to stay.  It's a choice we all make every day... to stay or to leave.  But the longer you stay in a SM, the more F'd in the head you're going to feel.  FWIW... the only reason my W and I were able to turn around our 20-year SM was that we *both* admitted honestly that we weren't perfect and we *both* made some changes.  And that only happened with the help of professional counseling, which we both admitted we needed because our marriage relationship was so bad we both felt we couldn't live that way anymore.  Unless your W is willing to do something similar and change her ways (admittedly we did it but it is really hard to do after such a long time)... then I think your marriage will continue sliding more and more downhill.  You've got to both want to change in order have any chance of success.

TL2

Pdan87 - You have a lot in common with me and my former situation.  My wife and I went through nearly *20 years* of a sexless marriage (SM).  I would never wish that experience on anyone... it was hell and almost destroyed our marriage and me/myself in the process.  Even though it's been about 2 1/2 years of hell for you (if I'm doing the math right) at least it isn't 20 years.  I am going to assume you're around 30 years old based on a few things, and if so, dang, the good news is you have *so much time* to nip this in the bud and deal with this now.  Don't let it go on as long as I did, until my mid-40s, before my W and I got help, made changes, and turned things around.  Is my marriage perfect now? No.  But we now have regular (weekly) sex and things are a lot better.  We keep working at it. 

Things in common: We're also christian and had conservative upbringing, although some of my views have become more liberal as the years go by. My wife also had pain during sex a lot of the time when we were first married (found out after 4 years that she had stage 4 / severe endometriosis).  We also got in *endless* discussions about sex with no resolution (obviously, because it was a 20 year SM). 

Things that are different: You say your wife cries and says very little.  She says she sorry and things will change.  My wife never did those things.  She always said quite a bit, actually, about how I *always* wanted sex, even though it was always less than once a month (definition of a SM on these boards).  We argued.  And my wife never said she was sorry and things will change.  She always just got her way and was happy when the argument wound down with no resolution / no change. I actually think that these 2 factors: (your wife cries and says very little, and says things will change)... are positive things.  My impression is that she *wants* to change somehow, but doesn't know how to get there.  I think she is struggling with something else.  Perhaps in part it is pain during sex.  Perhaps it is something else with strong emotion.  Perhaps she was physically abused (or roughly treated) in some sexual or physically intimate way... and that's creating a roadblock for when you do try to have sex. (I asked my W about 3 times about this before she admitted that a prior boyfriend had treated her kind of rough and without her consent... this was at the end of high school and he was trying to become physically aggressive and my W wasn't ready for that intimacy or sex yet).  As a result, years later and during our marriage, my W frequently batted my hands away for most of the SM time in our marriage... it reminded her of the other guy who was physically aggressive.

I started telling my detailed story on EP but I am sorry that I never finished my full story on that site before the site effectively closed recently, but here is a direct link to one story I wrote (still readable) that goes into *a lot* of detail about my / our background.  It doesn't fully resolve things, but you might see some commonalities and if so it might be helpful.  www.experienceproject.com/stories/Live-In-A-Sexless-Marriage/4844044

My W and I were *finally* able to get to a better place with couples counseling.  But there were so many other factors too that also came into play.  If you have questions or feel I can help, feel free to separately message me and I'll respond when I can.  Unfortunately I'll be out of town for an extended weekend beginning tomorrow and I won't have internet access.  However, when I return next week I'll try to check back here as soon as I can.

Hang in there Pdan... I know your pain.  I think there may be hope for you with some effort from both you and your W.  You have some encouraging signs in the sense that I think at some level your W actually wants to change.  And that desire to change is absolutely necessary.  

TL2

Sufferinhubby: In a separate post just a little while ago I mentioned that I think your W is controlling you and/or getting what she wants and needs out of the relationship.  She may be a type A strong willed person, but even so that doesn't mean your needs shouldn't get met or shoved to the side.

One thought came to me: Have you told any of *your* friends about your SM?  How about any of *her* friends, or *couples* that both of your are friends with?  Or any of *her* family about your SM?  She is at some level, intentionally or subconsciously, trying to control you.  Perhaps it was even a pattern or thing she learned or observed in other relationships as she was growing up.  But if you start telling other people about your SM... that would probably shatter the "perfect family" picture she is trying to paint to the rest of the outside world.  I think you have tremendous leverage there.  I started telling a few close friends about my SM, and then told my W that those friends knew about the SM... and it was one factor that started getting my W's attention.  But one of the next steps I was going to do (but never did because counseling *did* work for us)... was I was going to tell my refuser / W that I needed to talk with / confide with several other people in order to deal with the SM situation... and that I was going to start talking to X number of people per week / month and tell them about the SM.  If your W / refuser is trying to maintain this charade of a "perfect family" with the outside world... this strategy will absolutely shatter that.  She desperately won't want that.  You may be able to force her to change her ways. 

Some people on these boards may then say, well if I have to force my refuser to change, then does he/she really love me?  Maybe yes, maybe no.  My W, I believe, really loves me, even though we were in a SM for 20 years.  But she never *really* understood how important sex was to me until we forced the issue, broke through, and made progress with our relationship.  She also had pain during sex and it was extremely difficult for her to orgasm.  If your W is the same way, perhaps you can still get there with a different kind of effort.  If nothing else, what have you got to lose?  Start talking with people, tell them about the SM, and the more people you actually sit down and talk with, the more reassurance I think you'll really feel that you *are* normal. 

The other good thing about telling other people about your SM now:  If you ever *do* decide to divorce, then people will already know for years what the real *big* issue was.. and you won't be perceived as the jerk for divorcing your W and leaving her with kids to raise or whatever.  They'll know that your W / refuser was "being unfaithful to the marriage", and you will be *well* justified in divorcing.  Sex is natural and assumed and *needed* in any normal marriage.  Your W is not normal.  Neither is my W.  But in a key area (sex), with the right motivation, my W found that she did have the capacity to change.  And we love and appreciate and respect each other more now.  We're not perfect, but we keep working at it.

TL2

pdan87, I'm late to this party, so I will try to be brief. My situation was similar to yours, in that my ex and I were compatible mentally and emotionally. We were (and still are) good friends to each other. And for the first 6 years, we were good lovers too. That is where the similarity ends, I guess - it sounds like you and your W never have been good lovers.

One thing I'm wondering - I apologize if I'm making any assumptions, but if she comes from a conservative religious background, she may have somewhat old-fashioned ideas about the reasons to get married, and the importance of sex to a marriage. If she grew up learning to avoid anything sexual, then those lessons may have been permanently planted in her mind.

For your sake, if you are determined to stay in this marriage, I hope she can overcome her upbringing. Even for strict religious people, sex is allowed within marriage.

I would like to take a stab at this part. I too am a Christ follower. I believe divorce is a sin. I also believe that God loves and forgives sinners. I believe in marriage and vows. You took a vow to be faithful, to have sex with only one person on this planet. That vow is broken when that is taken from you. Does God look down and smile on that? That's not what my bible says. Many parts of marital vows are things beyond your control. For richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, for better or for worse. All those things can change by the end of today! A car accident, a fire etc...

what is in our control is husbands respect your wives, wives respect your husbands. Respect. Now we are talking about meeting each other's needs. Submission. Why is submission mentioned as a curse from the beginning? Because it has to do with control. Control comes in many ways. One of those is fear. Controlling your circumstances to try and illuminate fear. The person who is content with things remaining the same has fears of the new. So they are controlling others by not accepting change.

todays churches are still very hidden behind their masks of laws, rules, standards, and virtues. Just a side note: when Jesus was at a party who did he say loved him the most, was closest to knowing him? Was it the disciples, the pharasies, no it was the prostitute!

i would like to suggest some reading for you.

Boundaries in Marriage by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. Grab a highlighter and get ready for a bunch of , " that's what happens to me" moments.

Wild at Heart By John Elderedge. The first 70 pages will make you want to read it again and again.

A Scandalous Freedom by Steve Brown. I am only half way through with this one. It Blows away so many of those old false traditions of religion and sheds light on the true radical nature of the gospel.

Every book I have ever read about Christian Family puts God first , Marriage second, and Family third.

agape love is a unselfish commitment to the greatest good of another. ( like rescuing a person from a burning vehicle.)

Marriage is a covenant, an agreement,a bond . This involves giving and taking.