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Post by catlover on Sept 14, 2021 12:35:09 GMT -5
My day started off like shit, opened my phone first thing this morning to read emails etc while enjoying my coffee and got the new that one of my best buddies from school days had taken his own life over the weekend. My wife obviously heard me saying oh no etc and so I handed her my phone to shared the news with her with tears streaming down my face (I couldn't talk). Not so much as a hug from her. I can't describe how that makes me feel, like she has zero regard for my feelings at a time like this. Just when I thought we were getting somewhere on the affection dept.. Ah well, is it time to move on?
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lanie
Junior Member
Posts: 92 
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by lanie on Sept 14, 2021 13:09:03 GMT -5
((So Sorry )) Here a virtual one. Hope it helps.
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Post by baza on Sept 14, 2021 18:21:04 GMT -5
Your August 19 posting (the accident with the hatchet) described how your missus extended some sympathy and help to you in that physical situation. But here, where you have an "emotional accident" (for want of a better term) your missus is missing in action. Interesting how her responses to the two similar situations was so different. You pose the question - "is it time to move on ?" That's a question only you can answer Brother catlover . But what you CAN do is prepare yourself for such an eventuality, and then see how things pan out in the meantime. |
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Post by catlover on Sept 14, 2021 20:15:29 GMT -5
The *moving on* part will remain a fantasy.
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Post by jerri on Sept 15, 2021 1:07:30 GMT -5
A stark difference that feels like she is disrespecting you and/ an unloving response to your shock is Mrs. CL doesn't do feelings very well and you were in tears at the same time. Now, my immediate response is to hug someone in tears and hold them. My husband's girlfriend left him because she thought he was insensitive to the loss of one of her family members. Pre-covid I hugged a lot of people. My husband will hug only when hugged. His whole family is uncomfortable with hugs. I naturally touch people and now I have learned to ask if they want/need a hug. Therapy groups taught me that. A therapist told me to ask for what I need and we teach people what we want and how to treat us. Which feels strange because it would be so nice if they would just do it. With that tell her you have had a rough shock and it sure would be nice to get a hug. Sometimes I just hold my arms out for my husband. I also go lay my head in his lap and he will automatically hug me when I walk towards/or through the door at times. And when we hug we give each other a mini massage. It feels so good and loving to me. (((tight, warm, healing hugs))) I hope you can get some rest. You will need to find something to calm your swimming mind. When they take their own life their chemistry is so off that they don't reach out to others nor do they grasp what it does to others. It is such a tragedy. I am so sorry this happened and i wish we could be with you to just hang out.  |
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Post by solitarysoul on Sept 15, 2021 8:28:37 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that when someone takes their own life their chemistry is off... From my experience, its when life overwhelms you, when you reach a point you just can see a way out, when you are carrying so much weight that you are ready to collapse... I know... i have been there... I am on that path again right now with a life that is overwhelming me on a daily basis.... Even to the point that my burdens have caused my therapist to say "wow" on multiple occasions. Legal, professional, marital... they all keep coming.
For over 20 years, i have walked up to that ledge multiple times. I have even sat in my truck with a loaded rifle...but i have been too much of a coward to pull the trigger on a few occasions.
I feel for you catlover, the hard part is not knowing what was going through their head, what they were dealing with, why it so overwhelmed them, and could we have done something that would have eased that pain. No one close to me has even done it, but i have known of people that did. Unfortunately it only leaves questions. No one ever says "Well that figures..." afterwards... At times i want to scream out... but no one notices anyway... everyone has their own problems in this world.. that often how they feel. I hear what you are saying about your spouse... i doubt i would get much more... i would probably get some statement about i have not seen them in years anyway... in a way it becomes a burden that you have to carry when others dont share or allow you to express and feel your grief. But i hope you find a way to work through it and not let it carry on inside your heart and mind.
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Post by theexplorer on Sept 22, 2021 12:04:37 GMT -5
Catlover, sorry to hear of the loss of your friend. I have lost two friends to suicide. It sucks!
There are MANY reasons a person takes their life. Solitarysoul mentions several, but there are other reasons as well.
Unfortunately, those of us who are left will NEVER really know why a particular individual made such a choice. We are left with questions. Questions that we can never answer. Haunting questions that leave us confused. It just doesn't make sense to us. We can never know what another person is experiencing or what they are thinking. Therefore, we can never understand exactly what drove them to make such a drastic choice.
A few years back, I nearly took my own life. At that point, ending my life actually seemed like the best choice. It made complete, perfect sense. I believed that was the best option. It became an obsessive thought that I couldn't get out of my mind. I was certain my family would be better off without me. I couldn't imagine that my life was going to improve. The intense, emotional pain I was experiencing seemed unbearable. I was convinced that dying was the best option for myself and that my death would improve the lives of the people around me.
Fortunately, one of my friends realized that I was in a bad place. They saved my life. Over time, I realized how my thoughts, beliefs and perceptions had become twisted and messed up. I realized that we can't always trust our own minds. Was my brain chemistry off? I have no idea. Without a doubt, my thinking was certainly way off!
Catlover, I don't know your wife, but I can share one observation about my wife. My wife HATES to see a man cry. She also hates to be an emotional support for a man. She wants the man to be there for her if she needs to cry. She want a man to be her emotional support. Now, I'm NOT suggesting that her thinking is reasonable. I do not agree with her thinking. (Men are human and have emotions.) I'm just explaining how she is.
In a time of loss like this, do you have other family you can turn to for support?
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 22, 2021 18:44:45 GMT -5
Over time, I realized how my thoughts, beliefs and perceptions had become twisted and messed up. I realized that we can't always trust our own minds. Was my brain chemistry off? I have no idea. Without a doubt, my thinking was certainly way off! ... I can share one observation about my wife. My wife HATES to see a man cry. She also hates to be an emotional support for a man. She wants the man to be there for her if she needs to cry. She want a man to be her emotional support. Now, I'm NOT suggesting that her thinking is reasonable.... In a time of loss like this, do you have other family you can turn to for support? I'd love to hear more about the journey back and any milestones or revelations you encountered, if any occur to you and you don't mind sharing. The podcast Handy suggested on another thread: Dad Starting Over has more than a few mentions of the observation that the emotional support duty in typical heterosexual couples is one-way. There are evolutionary reasons for it, I suspect. The recommendation is to grouse to your buds over beer. You get sympathy, advice, suggestions, brainstorming, reality checks, and apparently, even tolerance for tears in some circumstances that weren't made clear. (You had to be there?) Maybe it's like these guys?: |
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 24, 2021 5:49:12 GMT -5
About 30 years of contemplating suicide has taught me that a death wish is a side effect of a fear of continuing to live, and eventually it occurred to me how a resultant loss of the natural fear of death might be somewhat of a super power… I've heard that crisis call center line operators dread the words, "I just want it to stop." For some reason, those words signal people who are really close to suicide. They may already have swallowed the pills. The "fear of continuing to live" sounds so much like that. I've not contemplated suicide more than a few minutes, but in around 30 of post-pubescent life I grew comfortable with the idea that a good death would end my story well and it was something to welcome as an opportunity: Smoke inhalation getting children out of a burning building. Assassination by a despot or zealot outraged that my words sought to undermine them. An accident on an operating table as a living donor of a kidney. That kind of thing. The drive to survive, lifted by the serenity of a life adequately lived? A super power indeed. Never contend with a man who has nothing to lose.--Baltasar Gracian I found that when seeking the more contemporary, familiar version: The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose.
--James A. Baldwin Which one could argue is a condensed version of Edmund Burke in a letter to Charles James Fox, 8 October 1777: People crushed by law, have no hopes but from power. If laws are their enemies, they will be enemies to laws; and those who have much hope and nothing to lose, will always be dangerous.
but www.azquotes.com/quotes/topics/nothing-to-lose.htmlalso captured the uplifting side I was also thinking about... he who has nothing to lose can afford all risks.
--Harriet Beecher Stowe and I truncate one more: Life begins at the end of your comfort zone. You won't find glory at the center of safety, but at its edge.
--Neale Donald Walsch |
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Post by catlover on Sept 24, 2021 23:59:58 GMT -5
Some years back (about 10 or so) I too attempted suicide . Took a handful of sleeping tablets and said goodbye to the world. Woke up very late the next morning. At that time I had a weekend pass from the psychiatric hospital.
I have come back from the brink but yes,, st that time it seemed like the only real rational choice. I do suffer from long-standing treatment resistant severe depression, often the only thing that stops me is knowing the mess I would be leaving behind. My brother in law also took his own life, jumped into the river Clyde in winter. My friend shot himself. I hate to think of the depths of despair they must have been feeling. “I just want it to stop” sums it up perfectly I think. In my case I just couldn’t stand being me anymore
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Post by solitarysoul on Sept 27, 2021 10:42:39 GMT -5
As all have been saying... "I just want it to stop"... has been so much of my life the last few years.. and continues to be... And knowing this is from outside forces over which i have NO control, makes it even harder... Imagine that all the things that are pushing you to the brink are thing you cannot control in ANY way (dont tell me otherwise unless you know what they are). It just keeps piling on and piling on....
At least some of you have friends that have pulled you back. I don't. I have no one... my only family is on the other side of the country... and there is the W...who would be more worried about what would happen to her should something happen to me... since i do all the work around here and pay for everything... So... who here is going to clean her house, pay the bills, take care of the car, do the yardwork... and keep her from feeling lonely?... ANYONE?...ANYONE?... there must be some volunteers on the site?.... Just dont expect gratitude or sex... or love... This is the chance of a lifetime... ANYONE?
I guess you are going to make me stick around a few days more...
I had to give away my gun... but there is a tall gorge here... and a nice river at the bottom... and many bridges... and i fear heights... but do i feel life more?... that is something i can understand...
Sometimes you just want to evaporate... or become Soylent Green....
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Post by theexplorer on Sept 27, 2021 13:17:38 GMT -5
Mirrorchid asked about my journey back from the brink of suicide. To understand the journey back, you need to understand where I was at that time.
I was a rather sick man at that point in time. I had been to a bunch of doctors and none of them had any idea how to help me. Several of the doctors had said I wasn't actually sick, my problems were all in my head. I was NOT lying. I was sick!! I was living in constant pain with seemingly no hope of recovery. In addition to the physical pain, I couldn't think clearly much of the time. I was miserable and couldn't see ANY hope for the future!!!
To make matters worse, 5 family members had died in the previous 12 months. Then my dog, which I'd had for many years, unexpectedly died. It was a the darkest period of my life!
To keep this story somewhat concise, one of my friends recognized that I was in serious trouble. I did not know her very well at that time, but she picked up on it. She asked if I was contemplating suicide. I denied it. She didn't buy my denial for a moment. She proceeded to have a long talk with me. The main thing I recall from the conversation was that she cared about me. That meant more than most folks could understand!
Shortly after this, my wife took me to a new Doctor that was very well regarded. After telling the doctor my story, he told me, "I believe you." He went on to say that a couple of other patients had come to his office with similar symptoms. He had researched my condition and said he was positive that my illness was real. He also stated that he was the doctor that should be able to help me. He went on to say that the discovery of this illness was so recent that it had not even been given a name yet. Since it was so new, he had no idea how to treat it, but he did say that most patients recover on their own, eventually. He also gave me a medicine that helped with the pain a little bit.
After that doctor's visit, my wife accepted that I had a genuine problem. She stopped berating me, accusing me of lying about symptoms, etc. Before that doctor's visit, she had made my life utterly miserable!! Once she stopped her relentless attacks and criticism, my daily life began to improve.
My physical health gradually improved over time. Turning my mental health around was a whole different challenge! It was a very long road to reach the point where I was even slightly interested in living again. It probably took close to 2 years. It's difficult to explain the recovery. In fact, I don't think I am capable of explaining it. There was a definite relationship between my mental and physical health. As I felt better physically, my desire to live began to grow.
An over-the-counter antidepressant has been a huge help. It is not a cure, but it helps manage the depression. I've also done some research on suicide in an attempt to understand it better.
Today, I am not completely over that suicidal period. Most of the time I want to live. If I get depressed, it's easy to slip back into thinking about suicide though. I think one of the things that would help me is to develop a reason or a purpose for living. Achieving this objective has been more difficult than expected!
Another realization is that I really need to improve my life! I read that depression can be a "wake up" call from the subconscious mind telling us we need to make changes in our life. In a number of areas, my life sucks!! My social life sucks, especially since Covid-19 arrived. Before Covid-19, I tended to work to many hours per week. My elderly parents need a LOT of help. I've cut back how much time I spend around them though. One of my parents is suffering from untreated depression. (They refuse to treat it!) Being around someone who is depressed, that I care about, drags me down. I've discovered that eating healthy food helps me feel a little bit better. I also stopped watching the news. The 24 hour news stations on TV seem to affect me more than I would have imagined.
Perhaps this helped to answer the question about my recovery. The thoughts are not the most organized, but hopefully they are understandable. I've made many changes in my life. Some helped a little, some helped a lot.
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 28, 2021 6:21:31 GMT -5
After telling the doctor my story, he told me, "I believe you." ... She stopped berating me, accusing me of lying about symptoms, etc....
An over-the-counter antidepressant has been a huge help.... I've also done some research on suicide in an attempt to understand it better.
... Achieving this objective has been more difficult than expected!
Another realization is that I really need to improve my life! I read that depression can be a "wake up" call from the subconscious mind telling us we need to make changes in our life. ... One of my parents is suffering from untreated depression. (They refuse to treat it!) ... eating healthy food helps me feel a little bit better...
Perhaps this helped to answer the question about my recovery.
May I applaud your initiative in studying yourself, depression, and suicide? Also, your doctor who was not so arrogant and useless as to fall back on psychosomatic conditions. May I ask what the non-prescription anti-depressant is? (an herb? melatonin?) Good diet is a good thing to watch for. The NIH has determined vitamin dificiencies are a factor for four or five nutrients. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WVBDnITRfPbz0uqhLL_tXdJiSTysyFQyKYAI7_jmNkA/edit#gid=0 Lines 241-286 have some notes I cobbled together. I've heard depression described as the flu in terms of disability to move, act, achieve. President Pfizer forced me to vaccinate or lose my job (I caught COVID in November of 2020, tested Positive by PCR test) and the vaccine caused backaches and impenetrable lethargy. I knew I could overcome it. I knew it was the vaccine, but I let myself be super lazy since I knew it was temporary. Depressed people? Holy sweet mother. I just can't imagine living like that for years like you/they do/did. If I didn't know it was the vaccine, I'd totally understand why some less enlightened doc would tell me I was fine. He'd be totally wrong, but I'd understand his being baffled. If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. We don' t yet measure feelings and doctors confusion between what we cannot measure and what we cannot yet measure is causing some patients severe, pointless self-loathing and stress. The story of Lyme disease's early days is a lovely tale. I could see depression as being such a call to action, but I'm not on board with clinical depression being a wake up call. I see it as an evolutionary tool to further the species. "I have severe problems. I will struggle to raise children. I should not engage in public discourse lest I mate and create babies that are unable to cope with my environment just as I am." Some suppress the despair with alcohol and other drugs. (self-medicating) That way, the animal's siblings will have less competition. Siblings that share genes that are not maladaptive. I find it possible the emotional [physical symptoms get triggered somehow incorrectly, isolating the victims despite no clear obstacles to life success. This accidental trigger may be partially genetic, thus your parent. Depression is among an insidious few that actually stops you from helping yourself. Your answers were superb. I'd look forward to hearing about any ideas you get about a mission. Charitable, self-actualization, or amusement. |
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Post by solitarysoul on Sept 28, 2021 6:52:38 GMT -5
having faced suicide for 30 years now, and having been closer than ever in the last few years, I certainly can attest to the connection of mental and physical. The mental struggles lead to fatigue, lack of sleep, etc which makes me feel worse... today is one of those days... just so exhausted and its not yet 8am. I wonder how much of my physical issues over the last 3 years have been due to my mental and emotional struggles.
theexplorer, you are so lucky to have had someone recognize your struggles. I have not. My W is so wrapped up in her own issues and she just calls me grumpy all the time (which is not true). She has to always be the victim so i expect no help there. My parents live over 1,000 miles away. I only see them once or twice a year. And i can't travel so that doesn't help. Due to WFH, the one friend i have in this world, i only see maybe once every 2 weeks...
Death doesnt sound so bad when you realize there would be no one to even miss you. My W would be more concerned about herself....and my one friend might be the only one there.
I also realize how much being with someone else who is depressed hurts you. Imagine being married to one.... Her issues are some of my strongest reasons to give up going on.
I am struggling like many to find a purpose (other than being the one to do everything for my W)... I used to find that in my work. But now they have announced they are selling the company to a much larger company... so that ends all that i had built in my current job...
I think things for me are even worse since i am not in control of my own life anymore... and that is a terrible place to be.\
I remain in therapy... but for totally different reasons than i started... As now that i am crossing that line from being "younger" to being "older", i dont think i will ever get away from those suicidal feelings... they are too much of an escape... but i do know that edge gets real close sometimes.
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Post by theexplorer on Oct 5, 2021 13:14:28 GMT -5
It took me a while to get back to the computer. To clarify a few points from the previous post:
I had some counseling after seeking help. I had a great counselor who made a difference.
My marriage has been a significant contributor to my depression. Some months back, I fell in love with another woman. (This was discussed that in another post.) For whatever it is worth, falling in love drove the depression away! Of course, that was a dangerous move and could have lead huge problems. (I live in a jurisdiction with lifetime alimony!!) Regardless, falling in love banished the depression. After it was over, the depression returned.
I agree with Mirrorchid that clinical depression is not necessarily a call to make changes in one's life. Clinical depression is far more serious! Thanks for mentioning that point.
On the first point that Solitarysoul mentions: From what I've read, depression is generally caused by more than one factor. One exception to this generalization is lack of sleep. Lack of sleep, in and of it's self, can cause depression. There are times when I can't sleep. It doesn't take very many nights of sleeping of only 3 to 4 hours and my depression returns.
Living with a depressed person could certainly be an issue for someone who is depressed! (I would hate to imagine living in my parents home today.) You are a strong man, Solitarysoul, to have lived in such an environment!! Unfortunately, you could reach the point where you MUST leave. (To save yourself!) I'm not necessarily talking about divorce. Perhaps you need to take a job farther away from home. Then you could get an apartment or sleeping room near your job, so you can stay there during the work week. Maybe a job that requires some travel to escape her influence. I don't know what would have to be done to meet your wife's needs while you are gone. Someone else may need to step in to help her and give you a break.
My wife could have some underlying depression. She has some symptoms that suggest depression. If she has any depression,she typically hides it. She attempts to hide most of her emotions most of the time, so that would be typical behavior for her. (There are times when I do not feel like I even know her!)
On finding a purpose, that can be difficult!! So many possible options. My current thinking is finding a way to help others that would be meaningful to me. I guess that would fall in to the Charitable category. Still thinking about this point, in the few moments of spare time available!
Finding friends is important. I've underestimated the importance of this in the past. I always focused on work. Work is good, but it ain't everything! Finding friends has proven to be more difficult in the second half of life. I am putting more effort into connecting with old friends and making new friends though. Sometimes the phone seems so heavy when I pick it up to call a friend!
Are we allowed to post links to other websites on this board?
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