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Post by isthisit on Sept 14, 2021 15:50:23 GMT -5
Welcome lanie . Much of your story has resonance for me. I similarly wondered what happened in my marriage, and like you outsourcing was a non-starter for me. I why chased like a good ‘un for many years just like everyone else here, it’s the price of admission to this place. One day I realised that the man I loved, and craved intimacy with had not actually existed *outside of my mind* for a very long time. Just as you describe my H had slowly morphed into someone I didn’t know anymore and didn’t especially like the company of much. I remember waking up one morning with the realisation that I wouldn’t go on a second date with the man next to me let alone more. It’s powerful stuff you are processing, so take your time with it. But not too much. You have several decades of life left. Keep that central to your thinking. |
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Post by jerri on Sept 15, 2021 3:01:54 GMT -5
I liked this answer when I looked up your exact line between each other.
I would not have liked the "thank you" response but it can be seen as kind. He may know that you are uneasy in the SM and he is relieved to hear "I love you" Who knows? We are supposed to ask follow up questions rather than assume assigned meaning. Am I bold enough to say, What does that mean? Why are you thanking me? Do you love me? I can't ask that line of questioning as an automatic response. I don't like rejection when I am already feeling rejected. So hard for me not to come up with alternative meanings.
Oh, yikes. I love newcomers because they write the same things I used to think.
Like: I don't want to leave, I just want what I had in the very beginning. For me I got sex for the first 6 years until we were married. BTW, I am staying too.
Everyone has a different definition for gaslighting. I tend to think if most people can pinpoint gaslighting, as a component of their relationship- it may be manipulation but it sure as hell has no real power over the victim. I may be off the mark.
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 15, 2021 5:23:22 GMT -5
... perhaps I was too quick to respond without knowing the rest of the respective other posters stories. Kudos was just meant as a recognition of how hard it must have been to endure what was endured, not as a congrats. All in the interpretation, I suppose. As for the " unintentionally sadistic" part of your comment. Yikes, it wasn't meant that way, ... I find it odd that you feel that the ideal of longevity in marriage is a "peculiar idealism". Gee, I always believed it to be the gold standard of marriage. If not, then why don't we just specify a reasonable time period from the beginning ? " I'll marry you for 9 and 3/4 years, and then I'll be moving on with my life without you ". LOL. ...The effort has felt pretty darned unilateral on my part for some time, but he contributes in other ways. He has vocalized his willingness to work on things to facilitate the survival of the marriage. ...having divorce papers drawn up and presenting them to him, is something that I in no way, shape or form am ready for. Nor his answer. It's a question I'm not ready to ask, but now I know that that's yet another approach. ... Good gracious, Ms. Lanie, please do not take my words for condemnation. Nor did I refer to it as an "error". It is indeed all interpretation. The celebratory tone is a ubiquitous one. You'll encounter some ILIASM posters who will embrace the grave as the only acceptable finish line. I even share the goal for my own union. My kudos remark was an observation I'd only noted for the first time myself. You'll note I said "we", not "you". The sadism had me saying "Yikes" too after I'd typed it. " Divorce is always good news. I know that sounds weird, but it's true because no good marriage has ever ended in divorce. That would be sad." --Louis C.K. Maybe there are folks that give up on their marriage too soon. ILIASM is riddled with people saying they waited too long. I watch these couples on TV, together 75 years, and interviewers ask what the secret is. "Sense of humor" is the only one I find credible form the usual replies. But you rarely (never?) hear: "Bullheaded stubbornness", "too much effort", "it never got bad enough", "a series of affairs", "stark fear there'd be no one else". Bet those are more accurate at least some of the time. There's no acknowledgement of the downside of these marathons. It doesn't make for light hearted, human interest morning news. As you encounter them, you may find many of my viewpoints "odd". I find it amusing to roll around traditions in my head, dissect them and come out the other end with alternatives that jolt the sensibilities. In a previous post somewhere here on ILIASM, I referred to the limited duration marriage as "dessert first". Not everyone cares all that much about the "growing old together" part of marriage. Many don't want the 20+ year commitment of children (ideally). Why require marriage to entail those two things with "the fun part"? When so many marriages end with so little public condemnation, we should either 1) stop expecting every marriage to be permanent or 2) no longer insist marriage is the only way to make sex acceptable. Gay marriage was demanded so that those who love us most could inherit property and visit one another in health crises. They never needed it for sex. Married gay sex is likely no more approved of than gay people "living in sin" fo r those who concern themselves with others' bedrooms. Perhaps heteros can look upon marriage with a more practical eye like that. The growing old, financial collaboration, and caretaking roles could be the focus rather than love/lust. This was fairly common not so very long ago in human history. Good to hear the husbro has, at the very least, verbally signaled an interest in getting closer. "Contributes in "other ways"? Do tell. The divorce-papers-ready-to-go approach may be horrendously foolish, for all I know. Apocrypha has made the observation that refusers may be stuck in their marriage too. They commonly know they are unhappy and often do not wish to be the one to be the "bad guy". Having the signature rather than having to ask for/demand it might defuse the situation some and the refuser may either feel liberated that "freedom" is a pen stroke away, or resigned that they need to do what their heart/brain has been telling them to do for a long time. Both may be preferable to dragging out a situation your partner feels is doomed and isn't going to invest in to save. This is untested, as far as I know. Don't consider it a recommendation. Unconventional marriage dynamics may find unconventional separation methods useful and I toss out ideas sometimes. Some of them will be duds. |
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lanie
Junior Member
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Age Range: 51-55
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Post by lanie on Sept 15, 2021 8:04:04 GMT -5
Apocrypha said " Consider, in your pre-married life, the various relationships in which you lost attraction to a person (for any reason, and with anyone- including people who you were not in a relationship with). With any of them, did you ever come to find them attractive again, once you had found them attractive and then, for whatever reason, lost that attraction? ".
Yes, personally I have had that happen on at least one occasion. My desired outcome is that it happens for him. What a good point about "what is a marriage?" Our vows were hand written and personal and obviously our implementation of those as written is a bit lacking.
I'll be honest and say that in retrospect I can see that there were a couple of red flags, before we even tied the knot, so I'm trying to not beat myself up over not recognizing/being more analytical then .
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lanie
Junior Member
Posts: 89
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by lanie on Sept 15, 2021 8:13:10 GMT -5
Isthisit said "One day I realized that the man I loved, and craved intimacy with had not actually existed *outside of my mind* for a very long time. Just as you describe my H had slowly morphed into someone I didn’t know anymore and didn’t especially like the company of much. I remember waking up one morning with the realization that I wouldn’t go on a second date with the man next to me let alone more."
So true~! I actually had this exact same thought about my husband, not so long ago. On more than one occasion. Thank you for providing a focus ….the future and what I want it to look like. I want to live surrounded by a love that's sure, strong and true . And sexual. Barring that, maybe single again wouldn't be all that bad after all.
Jerri : What a coincidence. In my relationship the sex was hot, heavy and frequent ( just the way I prefer) up until our honeymoon and after. The first couple of years, it cooled a bit but i was still happy enough with it. I just figured it was maybe the age difference and maybe he couldn't keep up that pace long-term. He had Viagra in his cupboard back then , but he 'd never had to use it with me . I wonder if we'd still be going at it if we hadn't made it legal. Reminds me of a "it's not the kill, it's the thrill of the chase" type situation.
Mirrororchid: I absolutely delight in reading your posts, I find your perspective to be refreshingly delightful and uplifting. A new twist on old tired ideas is always a good thing. Thank you.
Husbros other "contributions" of which I wrote, have more to do with things like actively taking part in grandparenting...fishing, chess , etc... ( my children's children) and contributing financially. We do still from time to time have some moderate recreation ( he put table tennis in his wedding vow) I found that odd, as I am the one who usually initiates that activity, but he had the table when we met. Now I know if he ever stumbles across this forum or if I ever invite him to it, he would definitely recognize himself.
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 15, 2021 8:53:31 GMT -5
mirrorchid: "Kudos is an odd thing we express for longsuffering. The admiration society offers to lengthy marriage is quite the incentive. It's also an integral part of the trap of a doomed marriage (not to say yours is.) Northstarmom determined the tipping point can be when she is rock solid sure that being single would be better than being married. How much more time was spent in that befuddling reality before she was sure? Was it fortitude that kept her going through her uncertainty? Or self-doubt? Envy of those with easier marriages? Multiple motives can push people to hang on and congratulations for entrapping oneself strike me as unintentionally sadistic."
I don't give kudos for people who choose to stay a long time in a sexless (or otherwise miserable) marriage. I pity such people. I used to be one. Unlike most people here, I found this site after I got out of my 34-year marriage. If I'd found it earlier, with the info here I likely would have realized that I could not get the kind of marriage I wanted from my husband, and I likely would have divorced him years earlier.
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Post by isthisit on Sept 15, 2021 13:57:45 GMT -5
I want to live surrounded by a love that's sure, strong and true . And sexual. Barring that, maybe single again wouldn't be all that bad after all. Good for you. You are thinking about what you want, need and deserve. Please keep exploring those thoughts and feelings. You may not know my story. After finding this place and the finally recognising my reality I told my H that I couldn’t be his W anymore. I have found being single no cake walk, but then nothing is, life is always complicated and messy, and can feel like trudging through treacle some days regardless of one’s choices. But life is infinitely better now than before. No weight of pretence in a marriage which was in name only. No denial to myself about that hollow feeling- which was loneliness. My future suddenly did not look like my past but was mine to shape and choose. Oh, and having a man who loves and desires you? Like a woman (and not like some weird sibling)? I couldn’t find the words to describe how wonderful that was. I was ready, you will know when and if you are. Trust your instincts. |
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Post by isthisit on Sept 15, 2021 14:00:43 GMT -5
I don't give kudos for people who choose to stay a long time in a sexless (or otherwise miserable) marriage. I pity such people. Can’t like this enough. Be happy. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Sept 15, 2021 15:27:22 GMT -5
Apocrypha said " Consider, in your pre-married life, the various relationships in which you lost attraction to a person (for any reason, and with anyone- including people who you were not in a relationship with). With any of them, did you ever come to find them attractive again, once you had found them attractive and then, for whatever reason, lost that attraction? ". Yes, personally I have had that happen on at least one occasion. My desired outcome is that it happens for him. What a good point about "what is a marriage?" Our vows were hand written and personal and obviously our implementation of those as written is a bit lacking. I'll be honest and say that in retrospect I can see that there were a couple of red flags, before we even tied the knot, so I'm trying to not beat myself up over not recognizing/being more analytical then . Don't beat yourself up too much. You did not have the present retrospective of what may seem to be an obvious result informing you. In the example of the person who you were attracted to and later found him to be unattractive, how many years did you spend finding him to be unattractive before you changed sides again? When I say that - I don't mean "not attracted" - as in a neutral state - ambivalence or undefined. I mean definitively unattracted, repulsed, disgusted - that scale. I think people get so focused on their own celibacy that they don't quite grasp that their partner is also celibate. You know just how hard that has been for you. Consider that it's JUST AS HARD for your partner; however, it's a better result for that partner to STILL avoid sex with you, than have it with the willing and eager partner. That's the size of the mountain you are dealing with. That's a person overriding his own libido and ample opportunities with a willing partner, to avoid doing something he thinks might be worse - but STILL not quitting the marriage. In many cases, if not all - both sides see themselves as the hero in the marriage, giving up a vital part of themselves as a way of "preserving the marriage" (which, ironically, lacks a unique mutual sexual attraction). None of this means either of you are not worthy of being the object of attraction with someone, to be clear. But if you could and you wanted to, then why wouldn't you make it happen? People trick themselves and their partners with dilemmas like "would I throw away my marriage for sex?" without realizing that a marriage includes sexual expression - and thus its lack means that the music being played is not what's written - it's not really any more marriage than one of many kinds of convenience. There's no marriage to throw away - rather the illusion of the marriage is tossed in favour of a truth. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 15, 2021 18:47:59 GMT -5
...I want to live surrounded by a love that's sure, strong and true . And sexual. Barring that, maybe single again wouldn't be all that bad after all. ... Husbros other "contributions" of which I wrote, have more to do with things like actively taking part in grandparenting...fishing, chess , etc... ( my children's children) and contributing financially. We do still from time to time have some moderate recreation ( he put table tennis in his wedding vow) I found that odd, as I am the one who usually initiates that activity, but he had the table when we met. Now I know if he ever stumbles across this forum or if I ever invite him to it, he would definitely recognize himself. We had written: "The effort has felt pretty darned unilateral on my part for some time, but he contributes in other ways. He has vocalized his willingness to work on things to facilitate the survival of the marriage."
"Contributes in "other ways"? Do tell.So, he's active as a participant in raising a family (third generation) but your unilateral effort is towards adding sexuality to the love that surrounds you? Is it sure, strong, or true? You seem to describe the home environment not without warmth. What's right about your marriage? The wholesome support of family, perhaps? What elements would you like to add other than sex? |
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Post by baza on Sept 15, 2021 19:57:51 GMT -5
A post or two back you were writing about 'vows' Sister lanie . I think that vows - or taking a moral position, or promises etc - are all well and good, but such undertakings need to be based on current facts. A life value you may have adopted 5 or 10 years ago based on the facts of 5 or 10 years ago may serve you well. But if the facts have changed then the life value you adopted 5 or 10 years ago might no longer be relevant. A personal example - As a young bloke I took a position that I would "never divorce or cheat". This position was not based on anything much, rather it was just me following the generally held view of the sheople at the time. The facts at that time were that I was single, didn't even have a girlfriend at the time let alone a wife. So it was very easy to take a position that I would "never divorce or cheat". Then life unfolded as it does, and several decades later, the facts changed. I was in an ILIASM shithole deal. But I was still operating on facts several decades out of date. And holding that position that I would "never divorce or cheat" was not a life enhancing strategy. In fact it was causing me misery. So I undertook the terribly difficult process of putting my position under the microscope. Some of the most difficult and challenging things I've ever done. Putting a long held belief under question is very, very, painful work. Now without going through the whole story, there came a time when I had to make some very difficult choices based on the (then) current facts in my life rather than the facts as they were several decades earlier. I divorced. Indeed in a technical sense, you could say I cheated too. These two things that as a 20 year old I had said I would never do. And I have no regrets on either score. It proved to be a highly life enhancing choice. Now I am NOT suggesting you charge off to the exit. That's a matter for you and you alone to get to grips with. What I am suggesting is that it is best to make your choices based on todays reality, not yesterdays reality. I've been out of my ILIASM deal over nearly 12 years now, and I am a pretty happy bloke. And although this has got nothing to do with my old ILIASM deal, as it turned out, I ended up in the relationship of my life 11 years ago, still going strong. Good luck as you wrestle with this vexatious issue Sister lanie . |
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 15, 2021 21:57:58 GMT -5
Apocrypha: "I think people get so focused on their own celibacy that they don't quite grasp that their partner is also celibate.
You know just how hard that has been for you. Consider that it's JUST AS HARD for your partner; however, it's a better result for that partner to STILL avoid sex with you, than have it with the willing and eager partner. "
This is true only if one's partner is a sexual person and is not having the kind of sex they want. Some people here have partners who are asexual and happy to be in a sexless marriage (though they'd prefer that you, their partner, would not try to get sex from them), are having sex with a partner whom they prefer to their spouse or prefer masturbation to sex with a partner.
In my situation, my spouse was having an affair. Indeed, it's now 8 years after our divorce and he just married a woman who is very different from me. I have no idea about their sex life, but since they speak different languages, I know that she doesn't irritate him with the kinds of intimate conversations I liked to try to have with him, conversations that made him get a deer in the headlights look. He was great about talking about sports minutia but could not talk about love of any kind. Meanwhile, I'm continuing to be very happy with a partner who is very different from my ex in that my partner is sexually and emotionally intimate with me and is comfortable talking about intimate subjects.
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optima
Junior Member
Posts: 35 
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Post by optima on Sept 15, 2021 23:38:08 GMT -5
I told my wife I think we should resume steps towards divorce tonight. It was the combination of cheating and sexless ness that did it for me. I, like you, saw marriage as a lifelong commitment so it’s devastating at so many levels, especially with two young children.
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Post by ironhamster on Sept 15, 2021 23:49:59 GMT -5
I considered marriage a forever commitment, also, and it's failure would be my personal failure. That was not a healthy outlook. Sometimes relationships run their course and fail, and that's not neccesarily anyone's fault. What was my fault was not recognizing when it was over and not healthy to continue being a part of.
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lanie
Junior Member
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Age Range: 51-55
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Post by lanie on Sept 16, 2021 5:19:37 GMT -5
Thank you all...each and every one of you who took the time to read and reply to my "plight" . I am thinking I'll be here for a good while yet. You have already helped me to awaken from my stale and perhaps rigid POV or maybe a better way to put it...set of impositions I myself placed upon my marriage. Hmmm....still digesting this way of thinking. It feels mighty good though, that much I can say. I actually put myself out there again last night, at bedtime and asked for a cuddle. He tried to say he was " too hot" so I said get rid of the extra blanket and it wouldn't kill him to throw an arm around me. Told him I needed it. He did that for me. I, at that point, did an internal systems check to see how it felt. It didn't feel forced or smothering, but it didn't feel nice and cuddly. Maybe because I knew I had to ask for it. I am aware that my own experiences and upbringing have much to do with my worldview and feelings about divorce. As a child of parents who were separated for 10 years before it became final ( the year my daughter was born) I have always been in the " marriage is forever" camp. Funny that, as a small child, when my parents argued, I remember asking them ( me-at age 4 or 5) "Why don't you guys just get divorced then?" LOL. This is also why I waited so long to get married. Although I had had the pleasure of co-habitation and a couple of engagements with like-minded souls, ultimately, I wouldn't marry unless I felt sure that he was truly "the one". That had never really happened until I met my husband. The funny part is is that part of that decision was our sexual compatibility. Sigh. ironhamster...your views seem to mirror mine in the aspect of considering the failure of my marriage as a personal failure. Your attitude today seems healthy and of the type I need to emulate myself. Maybe it ran its course, maybe it just morphed and I need to decide if I can be happy enough if I stay. Maybe I'll undertake a new venture or continue my personal growth and he'll realize he isn't going to be my warden...that that deal isn't working for me. Maybe he's trying to force me to change by withholding. Who knows? I've already made a couple of pro-active steps with my independence in mind. Apocrypha & northstarmom. You both made good points. Northstar, I like your answer. IDK if it's just me he doesn't want to be sexual with or if it's a larger issue. He watches a lot of "relationship shows' i.e. The bachelor/bachelorette, Married at First Sight, etc... These shows are not in the least interesting to me and so he usually watches solo. Not that he invites me to watch anyway...more like I'm either 'just there" or in the other room. I'm starting to spend more time on me stuff. I am trying to really do the pros/cons list and and take the time to think this through . Although I know there are no crystal balls in regards to my future, I can however, run several possible scenarios and see how I think I might feel with each, then assess which of those I would or would not find acceptable. Mostly, although I don't particularly want to waste any time, a marriage is what I committed to, and if I don't take the time to try to see if this is survivable and still a viable marriage, then I wouldn't be honoring myself, let alone him or our marriage. Regardless of his level of "honoring our commitment" , I believe a marriage is not 50/50 it is each one giving 100%, therefore, if someone falls below that for awhile, for whatever reason, the other one makes up the slack. baza ; Again, spot on about the vows and current reality vs. past reality. Thank you, I needed that. I love all the wisdom I am finding here. optima : Best of luck in your life. May you both find what you need and what suits you. I wish you both happiness. I also hope you both have the ability to remain civil and adult where the children are concerned. I was made the "go-between' at quite a young age, so I know how difficult that is. ( not implying that either of you would do that, just sharing my own experience). mirrororchid . Great questions and I will address in a subsequent post. Thanks for more food for thought today. 
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