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Post by theexplorer on Jun 18, 2021 11:19:26 GMT -5
I have not been on this website much in recent months. Lets start with the good news. About a year ago, I met a woman and fell in love with her. We did not have a physical affair, but there was an emotional connection. Naturally, it did not take long for my wife to get suspicious that something had changed. The wife and I had a long talk about our marriage. I had complained about the lack of sex in our marriage for years, but she did not take me seriously. When she realized that the lack of sex was a "deal breaker" for me, she agreed to have sex. It is not easy for her to have sex. At times, she can't have sex due to her medical issues. (Often a hand job is the best she can do.) But over the last year, she has made an honest effort to meet my sexual needs. To be blunt about it, the sex is not all that great. She has made some efforts to be more attractive though. (Losing some weight, etc.)
Now, I've discovered a new problem and could use some advice on it. After many years of a sexless marriage, I do NOT feel close to her. I like her and we get along reasonably well. Now that we have been having sex, we haven't had any significant arguments. So our marriage is better, but I just don't feel close to her. I have trouble trusting her, because she is not very trustworthy.
My wife grew up in a really bad home. She was physically and emotionally abused by her parents. At times, the abuse was quite severe. She told me the truth about her childhood home after we had been married for 8 years. It is a subject she doesn't like to discuss. The memories are painful. Anyway, I suspect her childhood home plays a role in her life today.
My wife does NOT like to be close to anyone. While we were dating she was close to me. (Or pretended to be close to me.) After we married, she immediately became emotionally distant. At the time I was mystified. Now I realize that in her childhood, she learned that she could not trust ANYONE, EVER. Therefore she refuses to be close to me, or anyone else. At times, she almost feel like a stranger.
This lack of closeness bothers me. I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done about it. Now to complicate matters, I recently saw this other woman that I fell in love with a year ago. We had a long talk. She still has feelings for me, and I still think of her often. So, I'm not sure what to do. I don't like the idea of leaving my wife. On the other hand, living with an emotionally distant woman is not easy. Anyone have any advice?
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catsloveme
Full Member
Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 207
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Post by catsloveme on Jun 18, 2021 18:39:02 GMT -5
Have the two of you considered couples counseling?
Has she done any therapy to work through her childhood traumas?
That seems to me like a good place to start.
As far as the other woman goes, my opinion is that it might be best to put that on the back burner for right now and try to focus on improving the closeness/ emotional intimacy/ trust in your marriage. (That being said with only having the knowledge of what you’ve written in your post.)
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Post by Handy on Jun 18, 2021 19:42:54 GMT -5
Theexplorer, not feeling close to a spouse after a long sexless or starfish sex relationship is common.
Mirrororchid spent time reconnecting with his W.
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Post by baza on Jun 18, 2021 19:49:05 GMT -5
Good to see you again Brother theexplorer . You mention being happier than you were 12 months ago (in my opinion that's a big tick in the 'Win' column) Now the question appears to be - "has the situation improved enough to warrant staying" - and it appears that the jury is still out on that question. The answer is one that only you can provide Brother theexplorer . The other woman is a side-bar to the main issue - your marriage - here. If you are going to stay (or leave) then that choice has to stand up all by itself, independent of what else might be going on. Really, you are facing the same choice as you had a year ago, albeit from a situation where there was no sex to a position where there's some. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Jun 21, 2021 6:07:42 GMT -5
I have not been on this website much in recent months. Lets start with the good news. About a year ago, I met a woman and fell in love with her. We did not have a physical affair, but there was an emotional connection. Naturally, it did not take long for my wife to get suspicious that something had changed. The wife and I had a long talk about our marriage. I had complained about the lack of sex in our marriage for years, but she did not take me seriously. When she realized that the lack of sex was a "deal breaker" for me, she agreed to have sex. It is not easy for her to have sex. At times, she can't have sex due to her medical issues. (Often a hand job is the best she can do.) But over the last year, she has made an honest effort to meet my sexual needs. To be blunt about it, the sex is not all that great. She has made some efforts to be more attractive though. (Losing some weight, etc.) Now, I've discovered a new problem and could use some advice on it. After many years of a sexless marriage, I do NOT feel close to her. I like her and we get along reasonably well. Now that we have been having sex, we haven't had any significant arguments. So our marriage is better, but I just don't feel close to her. I have trouble trusting her, because she is not very trustworthy. My wife grew up in a really bad home. She was physically and emotionally abused by her parents. At times, the abuse was quite severe. She told me the truth about her childhood home after we had been married for 8 years. It is a subject she doesn't like to discuss. The memories are painful. Anyway, I suspect her childhood home plays a role in her life today. My wife does NOT like to be close to anyone. While we were dating she was close to me. (Or pretended to be close to me.) After we married, she immediately became emotionally distant. At the time I was mystified. Now I realize that in her childhood, she learned that she could not trust ANYONE, EVER. Therefore she refuses to be close to me, or anyone else. At times, she almost feel like a stranger. This lack of closeness bothers me. I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done about it. Now to complicate matters, I recently saw this other woman that I fell in love with a year ago. We had a long talk. She still has feelings for me, and I still think of her often. So, I'm not sure what to do. I don't like the idea of leaving my wife. On the other hand, living with an emotionally distant woman is not easy. Anyone have any advice? does me an honor suggesting I've got useful tips for you, but our situations differ too much for me to have confidence. While seeking to outsource, I neglected my wife and simply reversed that behavior and focused on being a very thoughtful partner. *I* screwed up. I changed my behavior. Months later, while mindful not to make that mistake again, I explained I'd start dating again (loving your spouse well and outsourcing need not be exclusive) and then my wife reset. I'm not sure how much effort took place on my end for the physical reconnection. She changed her end. I suspect it was due to conversations she had with her therapist (who I further suspect explained that sex five times a year is below what will send many men to an AP) That said, I might have read up on some of the behavior that may be similar to that of Mrs. Explorer. Changing the degree to which you trust other people or the universe is deeply ingrained. It's likely to be an internal struggle. I'd suspect this will require primarily effort on her part. In her shoes, she's in an emotionally safe place now. What's to be gained from trusting in anyone or life in general. Pessimism and wariness leads to minimal hurt. It also limits your security. Someone concerned about constant attack will struggle to relax and be grateful for those things of their life that are good and gratitude correlates with happiness for many people. Your emotional affair may have validated her sense that the entire world is a carpet to be ripped out from under her. This is not to blame you. She made it difficult not to consider outsourcing. In the event you feel you must outsource, or divorce, it may be kind to her to keep her in the loop early (while heeding Baza's advice of being legally prepared for marital apocalypse.) The opposite of this protective shell she seems to have constructed against everyone (I assume it's not just you she mistrusts, correct me if I'm wrong.) is vulnerability. This emotional state is a lot to ask of even the well-adjusted so it may be an enormous "ask". Some folk may think of trusting as a small thing if one has done nothing to justify distrust. It should be, but especially for folks from unstable environments where trust was not routinely deserved, it's a mindset that has not been used much and these are emotional muscles that will be terribly weak. It's not much of a reflection on teh person affected. We might be the same, in their shoes. She may wish to be another way, or she may be suspicious of anyone asking her to leave her bubble of emotional safety. She may never have known the relaxation, acceptance, and universe harmony of being with people who only have your benefit in mind. She may have no frame of reference. Asking her to leave that bubble is an effort to change someone else, and we know the conventional wisdom of changing others' behavior. So, like my situation where all I could do was change what I did, I would like to determine what immediate steps you might be able to do. Asking someone to "be closer to you" or change their behavior based on how you feel strikes me as intimidatingly vague. So a first step is better defining what you need. Some of what you ask seems to encompass emotional states from her. Changing how you feel is intensely hard. Changing how you act, including suppressing what you feel (because you want to, rather than putting on a show) is doable. In fact, she may be hiding emotions she fears you don't want to see. I'd like to ask what you like about your emotional states with your prospective AP? Are these the feelings you'd want to experience with your wife? Which ones? Specificity may identify easier goals. Some may be unrealistic. New Relationship Energy (NRE) is a common thrill one gets from discovering someone completely new. (combined with pheromonal inebriation) Animal lust is not a commonly summoned state of mind for many married couples, but not impossible, What parts of the closeness you sense form the AP might you be able to foster with Mrs. Explorer? What reactions are you hoping for? What could she physically, tangibly do to make physical closeness with her feel the way you hope for? Are there things you could do that would help her increasingly glad to be your wife? (Depression and other mental conditions can produce feelings and states of mind that are not necessarily subject to evidence or actions from the outside. They just are. Stubbornly so and medication is sometimes teh answer for uprooting the inertia, other times, not so much) Can the medical issues be addressed better to remove some obstacles not associated with emotional states. Would such suggestions be upsetting and thus counterproductive for the moment? Dang dude. Sorry for the avalanche of essay questions. |
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Post by theexplorer on Jun 21, 2021 11:44:46 GMT -5
I'm back for a bit. First off, to address this other woman, she and I are not a great match. I knew that a year ago.. but the "animal attraction" was extremely high! We both knew we were not a good match. This is one of the biggest reasons, we did not get physically involved. We were very deeply attracted to each other, but my better judgement kept screaming, "Don't go there!!!" I suspect she was having a similar reaction!
It doesn't seem like my wife held my the deal with this other woman against me. She was mad. Make no mistake about it. Once she calmed down and I explained to my wife how I saw our marriage, it seemed like my wife realized that she was the primary cause of my behavior. I owned up to what I'd done. I did not try to hide or conceal it. So I don't think it did to much damage to the relationship between my wife and myself.
When I recently saw this other woman again, I was immediately struck with a feeling of happiness. It was great to see her!! I couldn't wait to talk with her. After our conversation, I reflected on the time with her. Then I contrasted that conversation to my reaction to my wife. With my wife, I don't have any emotional reaction upon meeting her or talking with her. There are not any positive or negative emotions. I wouldn't characterize it as total indifference. Unfortunately, it is not far removed from indifference though.
My wife is not receptive to the idea of seeing any kind of therapist. I suspect a good therapist could be a huge help to her. Her memories of her childhood are so painful that she hates to recall the memories. She has repressed and tried to forget them. This is not the best coping strategy, but it is how she does it.
To address one of mirrororchid's points, my wife doesn't like to be close to anyone. She is probably closer to me than anyone else. (Her best friend is her cat!) Mirrororchid is 100% correct that my wife has build a protective shell around her. She HATES to be vulnerable! Once I learned the truth about how her parents treated her, I understand why she is this way. I do NOT blame her! If there is anyone to blame, it would be her alcoholic parents!
After we married, I began to realize that she deeply struggled with the concept that I had her best interests at heart. After being with me for over 20 years, she still struggles with this subject!! She just can't accept it.
On the other hand, her background affects her life and by extension, my life. So, I'm trying to sort out what my options are at this point. I think it would be good for me to have someone I can be close to. I'm questioning if that will ever be my wife though. Perhaps I need a close friend outside the marriage?
I am out of time to finish this reply. Will write more later. In the mean time if anyone has any more thoughts please add them!
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Post by jerri on Jun 21, 2021 16:53:00 GMT -5
I think your M will parallel my M if she does not see a therapist. In other words, my sex life is swirling in the toilet. I think your W's reset will fade in time. What reset works unless it was about spice in the bedroom that was actually spiced up? (or any simple thing that can be corrected easily) My husband wants it to work but just pays lip service. I love what mirrororchid wrote. BBL None of us should tell you what to do with your marriage especially when therapists are not supposed to. Ask yourself if you think she will change. it really doesn't matter what M it is, do long term M's really get super excited about each other? That wanes when the hormones wane from "new relationship energy" I think one of the hardest things to extract out of this sexual R will be excitement. I thought I could get it back if I just found the right technique. I was able to get him to breathe harder but that was about it. Not much I can do about that! I think you deserved sex with your friend and most book authors expect your next step to be a divorce or affair if there is not big change. |
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Post by theexplorer on Jun 22, 2021 15:27:06 GMT -5
I'm back again for a few minutes. This week is much to busy!!!
In regard to what Baza wrote, I'm still planning on staying. Leaving would be difficult and VERY expensive!! I'm trying to figure out how to find a better, happier life. Leaving is an option, but I would rather stay if possible. On the other hand, I'm not ready to leave. Some legal matters would need to be put in order before leaving or outsourcing.
Back to the subject of my wife's resistance to being close to anyone. My wife wants me to be there when she needs me. On the other hand, she seldom will be there for me if I'm going through a difficult period. For example, when any of my wife's friends or family die, she ALWAYS wants me to go to the funeral services, etc. When her family gets together, she wants me to be there. In contrast, during the twenty years that I've known her, she has gone to one funeral for may family or friends. The rest of the times I have gone alone. She will occasionally go to visit my family. Most of the time, I go alone. My family accepts her and several of them like her more than they like me!!
Mirrororchid brings up some excellent points about defining exactly what I desire. If I can communicate that to her effectively, she may respond positively. That has already happened once. One point mentioned during our discussions about this other woman, was my desire to have my wife touch me more often. I'm a guy who LOVES to be touched!! (I'm close to being on the extreme end of the touch spectrum!) Many years ago, my wife was willing to touch me. As the sex dried up in our marriage, she developed an aversion to touching me. It reached the point where the only time I could touch her was when she was asleep. Since our discussion, she has made an attempt to touch me more frequently. I appreciate her efforts. Would I like to be touched more often? Oh yes!!!
I've been working on improving myself. Weightlifting has improved my appearance, along with losing some of that middle aged fat I've accumulated! I was struggling with depression for years. Oddly enough, after the deal with this other woman, the depression has left. I can't explain that!
A couple more questions:
1. How can I tell if my wife has really changed. As Jerri mentioned, I've been concerned that my wife is just offering longer term reset sex.
2. How close should a couple be after 20 year together?
Times up!
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Post by baza on Jun 22, 2021 20:34:01 GMT -5
Well Brother theexplorer , after 20 years, your relationship should be running at its' optimum. Where ever it is today, after 20 years of trial and error with what you bring to the table and what your missus brings to the table, the result is what you've presently got. And what you've got is exactly what the unique amalgam of the two people is capable of generating. Some relationships are capable of generating a lot. Some relationships are capable of generating very little. There's no *rule* about "How close should a couple be after 20 year together". They should be as close as they are capable of being. But you must keep in mind that some relationships are not capable of delivering very much in the way of closeness.. Chances are that after 20 years your marriage is producing exactly what it is capable of. Is that enough ? Over to you Brother theexplorer . That's a judgement call only you (and/or your missus) can make. |
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Post by lwoetin on Jun 23, 2021 0:44:30 GMT -5
A couple more questions: 1. How can I tell if my wife has really changed. As Jerri mentioned, I've been concerned that my wife is just offering longer term reset sex. 2. How close should a couple be after 20 year together? Times up! I think I'm too old to fall in love again so I can't give any advice on that. On closeness, I do remember a wife of a former president (Bush?) who said that what kept their 50+ marriage intact was humor. She didn't mention sex. If you can laugh in your marriage maybe it has potential. I'm not getting IT. But I think my wife and I are close after 24 years together. I'm more a vagynacologist than a sexual partner. I'm hoping things change once we are in empty nest status, a year from now youngest goes to college. A reset would be nice. I was watching the movie Joker a few days ago. Hopefully I don't laugh that hard. |
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 23, 2021 3:32:53 GMT -5
lwoetin said: "I think I'm too old to fall in love again..."
I was 62 when I last fell in love. I'll be 70 next month, and we are still together and in love.
One of my friends fell in love at age 70 and several years later is still with him.
Never say "never." You don't know what life holds for you even if you choose to stay in your marriage.
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Post by jerri on Jun 27, 2021 1:32:34 GMT -5
A couple's therapist will champion each of your rights.
Don't worry about her going to therapy. Get a therapist for you, a gift to you. Amazing how bold we can be with help!
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Post by theexplorer on Jul 20, 2021 12:46:45 GMT -5
I'm back again. Sorry about the delay. Issues with the extended family have kept me much to busy lately!
Baza, you make a very good point. It's ironic that I spent years focusing on the sexless part of the marriage. Now, I realize that the problems are far deeper than imagined! After finding this board, someone mentioned that lack of sex is rarely an isolated problem. Today, it's obvious that my marriage is in this category also. I honestly did NOT believe that initially.
We have a lack of closeness, but there is also the issue of her stunted ability to love, due to her background. Expecting these challenges to be resolved in a satisfactory manner is unlikely. So that means it is a value call as to stay or go. Thanks again for this advice.
On the subject of humor, we share some of that. Mrs. Explorer has a great sense of humor. There are times when we really enjoy each others company. On the other hand, there are days, particularly when she is in pain, that being together is more difficult. When she is hurting, she can be grouchy!!!
On the subject of seeing a counselor, for whatever reason, I'd rather read several dozen self help books than go see a counselor. Not sure why I'm like this.
padgemi, like yourself, I've had a deeper than normal desire for attachment. My parents were very inconsistent in showing love and affection to me. (Most of the time they ignored me.) My older sister died when I was young. I suspect part of the reason for my parents behavior was driven by their need to deal with losing her. A few years after she died, my younger brother was born. He is far more outgoing, aggressive and demanding than me. The little bits of love and attention they shared were normally given to him. (I'm a quiet, introvert.)
Mrs. Explorer deeply dislikes my desire for attachment. She is the opposite. She does NOT like to be close or deeply attached. She wants a fun, superficial relationship that doesn't have any problems. It took years for me to figure this out. Pulling away from her helped our relationship. (Of course, pulling away from her made me more vulnerable to falling in love with someone else.) I may be wrong, but I suspect that pulling away from her is part of the reason she has been willing to have sex now. Of course, on the flip side of this coin, now I miss the attachment.
I can not be certain if her heart is into having sex. She tries to hide her emotions, so "reading" her emotions can difficult. At times, she seems to really enjoy sex. Other times, it seems like she is just trying to make me happy. She is inconsistent.
The more I've thought about this, it may be the best answer is to search for a close friend outside the marriage. I could be close to them instead of her. I've always thought that Mrs. Explorer should be closest to me... Perhaps rethinking that basic assumption is in order. This idea has been considered before now... but for some reason, I've never been comfortable with it. Not sure why it doesn't seem like the right idea.
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