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Post by catlover on May 29, 2021 19:49:43 GMT -5
Thanks for that. On an intellectual level I get all that. Just hurts too much to accept though. I'm working on it, and sometimes I am able to accept it (I need the serenity prayer tattooed on my forearm where I will be constantly reminded of it.) "She may have lost romantic feelings a long time ago", yes you're probably right, feels like my life is a series of fuckups one after the other. We used to be really happy, or so I thought, what went wrong I don't know, but from what she's told me she never really enjoyed it anyway, also said that I always wanted more (gee I thought that was having fun and trying to keep things interesting.)
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Post by catlover on May 29, 2021 20:35:23 GMT -5
Also been the fwb route and pay for play , I get terribly guilty and am a really bad liar.i detest the sneaking around too. It was much easier when I was working away from home. I fucked up my last fwb (only had a couple) by being too caring about the wife (note: fwb does NOT want to talk about the wife
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Post by catlover on May 29, 2021 20:59:18 GMT -5
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Post by Handy on May 29, 2021 21:15:02 GMT -5
DryCreek's post has a lot of truths in it.
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Post by baza on May 29, 2021 22:48:22 GMT -5
Stay. Cheat. Leave. There's your 3 choices Brother catlover . And, you either pro-actively make a fully informed choice, or you don't. If you don't, then you have - by default - put yourself in the stay option. Now that (staying) is a perfectly legitimate strategy to adopt (as are the other two) But whatever choice you make, and however you made it (deliberately or by default) you've got to own it. If you don't own your choice, the resentment levels will drive the deal irrevocably into the ditch. It would seem that, among the membership there are quite a few people who have managed to make their choice, and taken ownership of it, and live it. These, seem to be the happiest in this group. You don't hear them bitching about their spouse (or ex spouse) or taking inventory of their spouse (or ex spouse) On the other hand, the unhappiest people here seem to be the ones who are in the "default" choice. If you haven't already, seeing a counsellor could be of real value to you in sorting all this out - your end of it at least.
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Post by DryCreek on May 30, 2021 0:57:30 GMT -5
catlover, the trouble is that these days only one of you is flirting. The other sees it as pestering. Unwanted attention. I also tried the calendar thing, but would actually sneak events onto her schedule with flirty titles. They got deleted without prejudice. In retrospect, it didn’t make me sad so much as angry - that after 20 years I still found my wife desirable (not just a sex object), but she saw that as a nuisance instead of a gift. I originally wrote that post 10 years ago, on a forum that no longer exists. Unfortunately, it’s easier to kick the can down the road vs making hard decisions, so I’m still in that boat and it’s been 30 years now. I chose the path of distraction - finding hobbies and business interests to keep me “too busy” to let the situation get to me. That strategy works, but as the prospect of retirement looms closer I’ve come to realize it means fewer distractions and more time together with someone who doesn’t want intimacy. Meanwhile, the cost of ejecting only gets higher, and the ability to recover retirement savings rapidly diminishes. Time is not your friend here. Thanks to a lot of legal / financial / social reinforcement, the dynamic easily develops where she believes sex is a favor that you aren’t worthy of, and there are no consequences (short of the nuclear option, which she probably doesn’t fathom is possible). I don’t recall the nuances of your story, but it’s an almost universal truth that nothing will change in her attitude until you put the marriage on the line. Not in a “fuck me or I’m filing divorce” extortion, but a very frank discussion that “I am determined to live a life full of passion and intimacy and sex. I want that with you, but if you don’t want that then we need to have a talk about divorcing.” (According to script, she will be shocked and unaware that you were so unhappy.) But first... before you can play that card, you need to know your situation. Talk to a lawyer (preferably, 3). Know the consequences. Set aside the money for your lawyer’s retainer. And be prepared to follow through - because once you speak those words, you open Pandora’s Box and she may file even if you don’t.
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Post by catlover on May 30, 2021 5:20:07 GMT -5
"finding hobbies and business interests to keep me “too busy” to let the situation get to me." Good advice too. I am trying to find outside activities, but damn, this Covid shit is playing havoc with that, (coupl;ed with extremely low motivation on my side) waiting that one out. Of course, by doing that, there is also the hope of stumbling across someone else (of the opposite gender) in a similar situation. Finding the unicorn of single, unattached women is pretty difficult.
I am forced, by circumstance to be in the "staying" camp so not a whole lot of options available. I'm not about to deliver any ultimatums, so the only options available are FWB or pay for play, here's a question though, if going the FWB route, if your FWB is also married, where do you "Liase" (apart from the obvious motel route?)
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Post by catlover on May 30, 2021 7:26:57 GMT -5
Yes, I meet the definition of insanity :-) Aiming to break that. The flirting with other women is extremely difficult right now with our lockdowns, looking forward to that being over! I do really value the advice handed out on this forum, even though it may not seem that way at times.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 30, 2021 8:12:27 GMT -5
That strategy works, but as the prospect of retirement looms closer I’ve come to realize it means fewer distractions and more time together with someone who doesn’t want intimacy. Meanwhile, the cost of ejecting only gets higher, and the ability to recover retirement savings rapidly diminishes. Time is not your friend here. Great to have you back!! More time together? Fewer distractions? Due to retirement? My observations have been that you are suddenly in higher demand by others now that you have 'time on your hands'. The church will easily want you to 'volunteer' your time and expect you to be highly available. An avenue to meet other retired people, and get you out of the house. Any grandchildren in the future? You will be highly sought after for babysitting. Again getting you out of the house with the kids. Grandkids can give you that much lost feeling of being needed , respected, and loved again. Neighbors will ask you to dog/cat sit for them. All kinds of bike riding, hiking, gardening, dancing, exercise clubs for the over 55 generation. knowing you, others will be seeking you as an investment partner, and a counselor for finances. (free ,of course) Then there is the story of "The Villages". The huge 55 and over retirement community in Florida with the highest STD % on the planet! I'd much rather be going into retirement with the label divorced, free, fun, happy, and available. Instead of chained down together in a miserable dead end marriage. Like having a "no trespassing" sign in your yard.
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Post by mirrororchid on May 31, 2021 7:15:36 GMT -5
Padgemi:” And I have reason to suspect, deep down, she viewed me more like weak and pathetic rather than sexually attractive.” I would view a man as a pathetic spineless worm not worthy of my love if he kept futility begging me for sex. To me, a manly man worthy of my love would move on not keep begging. I’d have no respect for a man who’d hang around declaring his love after being constantly rejected. And if I loved him romantically I wouldn’t have kept rejecting him. I am not "begging" for sex, just SOME physical affection. So, what do you all suggest I do, divorce or leave a very (terminally) ill women who has supported me through loads of shit (and also good times)? Gee, thanks for the morale booster. "I would view a man as a pathetic spineless worm not worthy of my love if he kept futility begging me for sex."
In less enlightened times, refused husbands did repugnant things instead of beg. Our society rejects taking sex, begging for it, cheating, and divorce. Sexless marriage is the socially accepted choice. Such a disturbing fate may lead some to wisely avoid marriage altogether. That, indeed, is a growing sentiment among men, most often pointed to in misogynist online communities, but the cost-benefit analysis of marriage has been altered dramatically and its obligatory status in society may wither. While lip service is given to lifelong commitment while commitment to autonomy strengthens, the societal value given marriage rots silently at its core. A reckoning is coming and it'll be like someone threw a switch. I am not "begging" for sex, just SOME physical affection.
At the risk of sounding like scorn, IMO, that's even worse. So, what do you all suggest I do, divorce or leave a very (terminally) ill women who has supported me through loads of shit (and also good times)?
Gee, thanks for the morale booster.If you're averse to unilaterally opening your marriage (outsourcing without sneaking around, the wife fully informed you are getting the intimacy she doesn't want elsewhere from someone who does) or divorce, you may best be served posting in "Choosing to Stay". The ground rules there are that posts there should be focused on coping mechanisms and sympathy. I'm wondering whether not a little of you wants to be convinced by others so that you aren't the source of the awful deed/decision. You're miserable, and the solution rubs your conscience raw. You need to fight off the hedonist demons and allow them (us?) to grind you down. Switch it, if you wanted to divorce, and we piled on demanding you stay in your misery, would you thank us for the morale booster? Wider society would applaud our sanctimony. It was and remains the default response. It's just as vexing. Caring for your terminally ill wife is draining you. Being without intimate companionship is draining you. You know how flight attendants tell you to always give yourself oxygen first in case of plane decompression? Is sexual touch the oxygen and you're passing out? What becomes of your wife's hospice care if you grow to hate/resent her? Will you serve her better that way? Can you love, honor, and cherish her til death more effectively and with joy if the "forsaking all others" part takes a hit? Does all of your devotion eventually fall apart if it doesn't? FROM OTHER POSTS: she's told me she never really enjoyed it anyway, also said that I always wanted more
I put it to her (you) that every couple has one partner wanting more. To have a perfectly even match is virtually impossible. Someone is always the generous one, and someone the one in need. It's just a question of degrees, commitment, and will. Also been the fwb route and pay for play , I get terribly guilty and am a really bad liar. i detest the sneaking around too....I fucked up my last fwb (only had a couple) by being too caring about the wife (note: fwb does NOT want to talk about the wife
Unilaterally opening the marriage prevents the need for deception. She can file for divorce if forcing you to be celibate is her definition of loving and cherishing you. (Baza's caveat about legal repercussions applies). Perhaps a dating profile seeking out someone with your circumstances might bear fruit. She can unburden her frustration and you can too? ... I am trying to find outside activities,...there is also the hope of stumbling across someone else (of the opposite gender) in a similar situation. Finding the unicorn of single, unattached women is pretty difficult.
... in the "staying" camp so not a whole lot of options available. I'm not about to deliver any ultimatums, so the only options available are FWB or pay for play, here's a question though, if going the FWB route, if your FWB is also married, where do you "Liase" (apart from the obvious motel route?)Unless you're going to divorce, I would think trying to forge a relationship with a single woman is madness. You think ILIASM members are pressuring you to divorce? Whoa, mama. Why wouldn't you consider a woman who LIASM? Do well by doing good. Even if you did divorce, after what you've been through, why would you refuse a refused wife? Some married women are open about outsourcing ( jerri). You may even "liase" at her place. Hell her husband may even be home. A hotel charge on her credit card will be routine. (You pick up dinner and the movie) Waiters prefer cash anyway. If you decide to unilaterally open the marriage, you can charge the hotel room. On a polyamory podcast, I also learned about "adult clubs"? Night clubs with side rooms expressly for the purpose of getting frisky. I've not been to one. (Yikes!) You ask around web sites like fetlife to find one, I think they said.
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Post by northstarmom on May 31, 2021 8:39:07 GMT -5
“Our society rejects taking sex, begging for it, cheating, and divorce. Sexless marriage is the socially accepted choice.”
I agree that rape is rejected by decent people. Begging for sex is typically futile and makes one look pitiful not sexy. However, divorce is widely accepted and cheating is accepted by some including many here.
It looks like you are choosing to stay. That forum here would be appropriate for you. You will receive only support for your decision. You will be happier if you accept that you are choosing to stay even though there is no chance your wife will be physically affectionate or sexual with you. Not expecting such things from her will prevent your repeatedly being disappointed by her behavior. If you feel remaining in a sexless marriage is your best choice, embrace your decision.
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Post by jerri on May 31, 2021 13:19:14 GMT -5
I am sure I came across as whiny but it doesn't matter. My worth is not measured by someone else's yardstick. It was a stage I had to go through and if nothing else he knew I wanted him. I had to go through that stage to work through it. Nothing wrong with that!!! There's nothing wrong with you, catlover. We go through a variety of emotions, sadness, irritation, passive, apathy, anger, bargaining, and finally acceptance... It is like the 5 stages of grief something clicks or resonates and then we move on but it's normal to grieve the passion that was lost. I didn't entirely let go of hope either and that is okay. Maybe we should be more supportive
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Post by catlover on May 31, 2021 17:35:02 GMT -5
First of all, thank you so much for the sound, straight and blunt advice. I do really appreciate it and it has really, really helped me. (She is not in hospice btw, I'm not that much of a prick, although she is really frail, she still insists on doing as much as possible for herself and around the house, drives herself and, as of yesterday, still wants to go shopping by herself; that has come to an end at my insistence after she took a 'wobbly' yesterday in the supermarket )
Yes, it is draining me, I don't do much for myself, a lot to do with the covid lockdown we are still under (she has actually been encouraging me to go out and find friends (pre pandemic)) Dunno if she means only male :-) She does know about a 'platonic' woman friend I have (former FWB actually) doesn't know anything about the 'real' former relationship (I don't think so anyway). My depression lends it self well to isolation.
Former FWB was a single (divorced) women, who, although she insisted she didn't want a romantic relationship, it did develop into that (more from her side), pretty much killed it when I couldn't provide more. Feelings were definitely there from my side too. I'm one of those people who can't have sex without a relationship. FWB sums it up perfectly, except the emphasis is on FRIENDS first. Which I have got now (without the benefits), and yes I am rambling.
What I was saying, the advice here has been great, my perspective on things has pretty much changed the last couple days and solidified this morning after the last post(s)
Profound thought from me this morning (well I thought so anyway; It is hard to accept that acceptance is not giving up.
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Post by baza on May 31, 2021 20:04:56 GMT -5
This is a huge balancing act you are in Brother catlover , some aspects of it you can control, some parts of it you can influence, and other bits of it you have no control over at all. Really, it seems that the main priority is your ongoing assistance in helping your missus out to a peaceful and dignified exit. That, is probably going to take a huge (and increasing) level of time and energy on your part, not to mention the emotional aspects. Is there room left in the situation to be dicking about with a FWB scenario ? Is there any room left for trying to fire up a marital sex life in the situation ? I reckon that the circumstances here call for you to prioritize where you direct your efforts. By necessity, that would mean some things need to be scrubbed or at least put on the backburner to be tackled at another time. The other thing is looking after yourself. What you are dealing with here is very very challenging, and the better shape you are in, the better job you'll do. Maybe there's a place in all this for a counsellor / mentor for you to assist you through the maze.
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Post by shamwow on Jun 7, 2021 19:24:43 GMT -5
Padgemi:” And I have reason to suspect, deep down, she viewed me more like weak and pathetic rather than sexually attractive.” I would view a man as a pathetic spineless worm not worthy of my love if he kept futility begging me for sex. To me, a manly man worthy of my love would move on not keep begging. I’d have no respect for a man who’d hang around declaring his love after being constantly rejected. And if I loved him romantically I wouldn’t have kept rejecting him. In the hindsight of being 4 years out of my SM I totally agree. However, remembering back to when I was married, I recall two main options...beg and maybe get scraps or go without. I wanted what I'd been promised... To have and to hold forever and ever and wasn't ready to blow things up...and that didn't exactly improve the conjul relations with Mrs Ex-Shammy. From the perspective of a reformed begger, there weren't a lot of options at the rejected husband's disposal. Begging, as damn sad a sight as it is, is often the unfortunate path of least resistanc for those not ready to drop the D-bomb.
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