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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 27, 2021 5:51:40 GMT -5
"easier access to as much sex as they want" may be important phrasing. What kind of sex do you want? Intimate sex where your lover cares a great deal about your overall welfare? Someone who knows your dreams and fears? I would sooner characterize that as " access to as much love as they want" I do not know how difficult romantic love is to obtain. I do hear a great deal of complaining from womenfolk about how men are dogs and fear commitment, so anecdotal evidence suggest finding sex women want is indeed tough. Finding casual sex is the quest I think we're saying is a snap. This quest isn't one a plethora of women undertake, from my observation. It's possible you don't want the kind of sex that's as easy to get as we claim. It's easy to get something you don't want? Not terribly interesting news for you. It's like saying the grocery store is giving away all-you-can-eat canned okra. Great for people that like it, I guess. Not much use to me. Is that easier to believe and fit better with your perceptions?
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sufferinhubby
Junior Member

My marriage is not a tragedy. It's more like a romantic comedy without the romance
Posts: 67
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by sufferinhubby on Jan 27, 2021 8:00:20 GMT -5
As baza mentioned above and as I always council people who try this out - yes, you might get some sex in your life here and there, under specific conditions and as events, but this isn't remotely sex in the context of an invested relationship that has no baked-in limits on it. So open marriage wuth a partner or with out one, or a closed celibate marriage - it doesn't matter. You still are faced with a dysfunctional relationship in your home, in which your partner is so averse to you, she'd rather risk the marriage and everything associated with it than sleep with you. Thanks you for these insights Apocrypha. You speak truth no doubt. I guess since I'm accustomed to a dysfunctional relationship where my partner is averse to me, the addition of non-committal sex seems like a welcome add - if in fact i can get it which is yet to be seen. It's a step. I feel since I was the one who brought this up I have to give it my best try. Will it improve my marriage? I doubt it. Will it improve my self-esteem knowing that rather than lay down and take it I tried to do something? Yes.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 27, 2021 13:28:56 GMT -5
As baza mentioned above and as I always council people who try this out - yes, you might get some sex in your life here and there, under specific conditions and as events, but this isn't remotely sex in the context of an invested relationship that has no baked-in limits on it. So open marriage wuth a partner or with out one, or a closed celibate marriage - it doesn't matter. You still are faced with a dysfunctional relationship in your home, in which your partner is so averse to you, she'd rather risk the marriage and everything associated with it than sleep with you. Thanks you for these insights Apocrypha . You speak truth no doubt. I guess since I'm accustomed to a dysfunctional relationship where my partner is averse to me, the addition of non-committal sex seems like a welcome add - if in fact i can get it which is yet to be seen. It's a step. I feel since I was the one who brought this up I have to give it my best try. Will it improve my marriage? I doubt it. Will it improve my self-esteem knowing that rather than lay down and take it I tried to do something? Yes. The addition of non-committal sex is indeed a welcome addition, when you can. Invested, committed sex also offers opportunities that I think are more meaningful as well. But - and no one can really be told this - it doesn't have much to do with the problem of your wife demonstrating that she's averse to you. When she's either separated from you or in an open marriage and boffing a new partner, it underlines the whole thing. I saw a lot of people in the non-monogamy community and variants who approached it like a hobby. Together. So, imagine couple who like deep wilderness camping, or who are really into purebred dog shows - it's a thing with it's own culture to explore and community - something to join together with its own norms and practices. It's a thing outside of themselves that they both choose to join and do. I've heard someone liken it to having a baby to save the marriage - something that requires extra rigour and intensity for both of them that gets them both looking ahead, side by side on an adventure, rather than staring each other down in a death spiral. That type often seemed to do it better and lasted for maybe 5-7 years most of the time before changing things up (closing the relationship, or switching the kink, or splitting). The most successful are the ones who have a fetish of some kind for it - who genuinely find each others' participation (whether that is asynchronous or not), to be hot. So, if someone finds it hot to be chaste while their partner is not, or where one is a voyeur ... you get it. These tend to work really well with asynchronous desires. That doesn't seem to be either you or me, though I have participated as a guest in other relationships where that was the case for them. What I learned after 3-4 years of this was that I enjoyed having sex, as I thought I would. I learned that I was attractive to women when I had thought I was the most unnattractive person on the planet, I learned not not be so angry or ashamed at what were really modest needs that I know I would have settled for in my own relationship. I learned, unequivocally, Empirically, that it was extremely important to my wife to not have sex with me - and that she did indeed have a robust sexual imagination that she wished to explore and would explore - but not with me. I also learned that there was no end to her gaslighting - and that even with the data made plan and evident - that she would still insist our difference was that sex was "just more important to me than to her". She would never, ever, no matter how absurd her "sexual aversion" claim appeared - leave this behind. I learned that she became jealous and abusive of me when I finally found a partner and did what she had been doing. Her coping mechanism for the jealousy was to further isolate herself from me. I learned that her "internal narrative" to give herself permission to do what she wanted, was so she could find her sexual spark elsewhere and then spend it with me. She had no concept as to how contemptuous and disdainful that positions me in my role - as a plays for her to "spend" sexual energy and delight that she acquired with people she enjoys. Like they help her grin and bear it. Telling me this, repeatedly, thinking it was an positive example of how much work she was putting into the relationship to sustain it - where she was the hero in it - it really made me realize this was a bridge too far. She thought this was a positive comment. Did it improve my marriage? No. In the long run not at all. Did it end it? No - it was just another tableaux in which what had already been established was laid out in fine detail. Regrets? Yes actually. If I was to do over, I already had everything I needed to know laid out. I did not have a mutual unique attraction with my wife - she might have loved me, and might have been a good mother to the kids, but did not love me as a wife loves a husband. I wish I had put my energy into creating an amicable cooperative separation that retained all the things you want to enjoy about your marriage, with less rancour at being gaslighted and abused afterwards. I wish my eyes had been open during the early increase in sympatico and sex, to understand that she wasn't viewing intimacy with me as restorative. There was nothing "marriage" was bringing to the table, that an amicable ex-spouse wasn't. We had no future as husband and wife. Co-parents maybe? An extended member of my family maybe. But not wife. As such, it's not really a step toward some kind of invested marriage. It wasn't for me. It wasn't really for a lot of people I saw. It had many positive elements - but those same elements could also be present and are now as a separated man. Those have little to do with my unrequited feelings for the person who was my wife (which thankfully have subsided and now I can see her like I might see a regular person - I don't think she'd last past too many dates with me these days)
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Post by jerri on Jan 28, 2021 1:34:56 GMT -5
My thought is do what is best for you regardless what your W is doing or plans to do. Legal advice is the first thing you need to sort out. Do not depend on what you hear will happen or what someone else did. Legal actions depend on locations and the different divorce rules in place in your legal area and the lawyers involved. Welcome back to the club you rather not belong to. Thank you. I come back here every now and then whenever my SM really gets to my head, and if it turns out all i need is a smack to my head then at least that helps me get straightened out  . Yes I understand it's best to protect myself in the (almost inevitable) case of divorce, but I really can't divorce my wife because she is having more success at dating in our mutually agreed-upon open marriage than i am. I think what's messing with my head the most is that we are almost a year into our open marriage, i still have not had ANY sex (or even a date), and my refuser is enjoying an exciting sex life with someone new. I can't help but feel like a fool in this situation. I went to this polyamory forum when I was first starting to open the M. The link below gets you though some of the challenges KDT -Greeter is very knowledgeable as are many others. I would then search the forum for all of the dating sites and see how each of them handle it. I went on Plenty of Fish before they smacked people down. OkCupid, Married category, ...I met FWB on AshleyM - not good for men any longer. Bur really some of their techniques just stand out. Some of them go on Craigslist. My knowledge will be dated 9yrs back. What is the main thing? It is a pure numbers game. Send the exact same letter with details from there profile. Beware of the people trying to make money and fake profiles on Ashley M. One of my mentors got his from a "hot Wife" forum and Fetlife. Another got his from Fetlife kink meetup potlucks. He was good at shibari rope tying. Then he would photograph women nude and score. Be creative because of the competition. One member was good in the grocery store, that was his specialty. He would ask about something, then depending on their response and how helpful they were...continue until he got their number which could be fake. I personally liked the romantic doms on fetlife One of my mentors joined a dance studio and sent me a video of him dancing with the ladies!!! haha his wife had no interest, then he joined fetlife.com and found a cuckold who wanted his wife shagged. My other mentor took women to his plane and hanger and took pics in the nude. another treasure chest of knowledge is Affairs group on reddit- search the group for key words. You are searching and fishing in the same pond they use. Not a bad idea to possibly shag the lonely lady at the shore house. Spouses do swap and you don't have to give the wifey any details just because she asks. the forum is vast polyamory.com/threads/dating-challenges-for-a-married-man.91133/was your wife always ice cold or did you lose sex the first few years? That matters. Some of us had spousal new relationship energy that waned. Only they don't understand the oxytocin and vasopressin hormones plummeted. Maybe you can enlighten us. If not, that is okay. This man is not better in any way. It is just hormones that will last for several years then poof...and she will do the same to him? It is not about you. But I think wifey is a witchy woman for doing it this way, at least be courteous and wait. But you have the right attitude and spirit.
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sufferinhubby
Junior Member

My marriage is not a tragedy. It's more like a romantic comedy without the romance
Posts: 67
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by sufferinhubby on Jan 28, 2021 17:49:14 GMT -5
Apocrypha and jerri , THANK YOU for this wealth of information! You provided good resources and I'm checking them out - even if it takes all day lol! Apocrypha I know some couples pursue open marriage as a fetish. I wish mine was that much fun! Yet I do feel like maybe my wife getting back into the habit of having sex is good for her. I have read that open marriage can help awaken dormant feelings - even if they are awkened by others - and maybe a give our marriage the kick it needs. If not then it's one more thing I tried and if everything fails at least I can say "I tried everything". At that point divorce really will be the last option on the table.
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Post by jerri on Jan 28, 2021 18:11:24 GMT -5
Precious one, it does take all day, sorry. I wrote you about the personal stuff.
There are still members that need to chime in.
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Post by baza on Jan 28, 2021 19:02:12 GMT -5
I reckon the best thing you've achieved here is that you have "done something" - and a pretty big something at that Brother sufferinhubby . A big enough "something" (opening up the marriage) to fundamentally change the impasse of an ILIASM deal. What you don't - yet - know is how this is all going to shake out for you (both) in the longer term. But you have got it on the move, and that has to be a good thing. The best thing out of this so far is that you firmly established your credibility. You said you were going to open up the marriage, then you did exactly that. So whatever you say next, your missus knows you mean it - and that is going to help enormously in bringing your ILIASM deal to resolution.
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sufferinhubby
Junior Member

My marriage is not a tragedy. It's more like a romantic comedy without the romance
Posts: 67
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by sufferinhubby on Jan 28, 2021 19:29:53 GMT -5
thank you baza. It took me 15 years to have the 20 minute conversation I wish I had 10 years ago.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 28, 2021 23:10:40 GMT -5
Yet I do feel like maybe my wife getting back into the habit of having sex is good for her. I have read that open marriage can help awaken dormant feelings - even if they are awkened by others - and maybe a give our marriage the kick it needs. If not then it's one more thing I tried and if everything fails at least I can say "I tried everything". At that point divorce really will be the last option on the table. YES! That was exactly _precisely_ the rationale Mrs. Apocrypha provided to me, as her hypothesis that this might be the solution for her in "finding her libido" again. Awakening dormant feelings. "I finally felt sexual again! This is what you want of me, isn't it?" And when I agreed to it, I used exactly the rationale you did. It's likely someone tried to point out something to me that I'm going to drag you back to right now. I don't know that I would have listened then because I was so miserable I didn't think I had anything to lose. She WILL find her libido. Her libido is NOT the problem, even if she says it is, even if she THINKS it is. It's having sex with YOU. It doesn't matter that you've studied the kama sutra forwards and backwards, or that you look like Jason Momoa. She doesn't see you as a viable sexual partner. She'll still likely treat you with absolute contempt or indifference if/when you eventually are able to find a partner a year or two from now. She'll find her libido - the same way as pretty much any newly separated person does, who thought herself sexually averse in her marriage. She'll explore it and enjoy it with other people. It doesn't have anything to do with you. It doesn't have anything to do with your marriage. What do you think will happen for the marriage?You DO have something to lose. You can learn to absolutely hate her through this, and given that you have children. Given that it's already happening, that she's already having sex with someone who seems relatively new to your ecosystem -- and not with you, what's your criteria for "if it fails?" For me, mine was "My wife and I do not increase the amount of intimacy we have for each other - to raise it to the threshold that I'd associate with a marriage."
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Post by jerri on Jan 29, 2021 2:31:15 GMT -5
Why not get STD tested in time, get your paperwork that the swingers club requires, follow their rules, and bring in your W for trade. Beware they do have smoking swinging clubs. Most won't let single gents in. They are approved couples. go to the website of the swingers club and get their criteria. It would be great if she could get you in for a shag/ you know.
One man wanted to go and then he backed out because it was smoking private club. I didn't know what to think, but I was willing to do it every blue moon.
She shagging her new beau and may say no to swinging. Tell her something like you are feeling left out during the pandemic and ask her to help you get sex. Do you still want sex with her? If she shagged you in the beginning of the week and then him oh, would you be upset?You have rules in an open marriage what are they for you guys?What makes you feel comfortable? What made me feel comfortable was me going out to get sex and he could join by getting a girlfriend when I felt satiated. my husband said he didn't ever want a girlfriend and he did not want to make any rules. so I made my own rules so he would feel more respected at least somewhat respected under the circumstances.
Is she jealous at all? She could shut the entire thing down when you get a woman and just cheat while demanding you keep your nose clean. Remember that you two are at the top of the hierarchy and you make decisions for everybody else who enters your sex life, within reason.
To get my way I had to protect my Hs feelings and treat him with respect. I don't think it is respectful for her to refuse you then go get it elsewhere. Make sure she understands that your needs are not being met and something needs to be done.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 29, 2021 5:57:39 GMT -5
Apocrypha and jerri , THANK YOU for this wealth of information! You provided good resources and I'm checking them out - even if it takes all day lol! Apocrypha I know some couples pursue open marriage as a fetish. I wish mine was that much fun! Yet I do feel like maybe my wife getting back into the habit of having sex is good for her. I have read that open marriage can help awaken dormant feelings - even if they are awkened by others - and maybe a give our marriage the kick it needs. If not then it's one more thing I tried and if everything fails at least I can say "I tried everything". At that point divorce really will be the last option on the table. You may start hearing about NRE. (New Relationship Energy) I was in a pretty great triad in my mid twenties, but there was no internet to offer advice on doing it right. My girlfriend's obsession with her new partner (who we met together as a couple and who became a good friend of mine) caused neglect of our relationship and we split off pretty soon. Leaving the two of them as a couple I was friends with. COVID has possibly interfered with the NRE process and her attention may remain focused on this other fella for an extended period. In happier circumstances, the crazy dopamine rush of a new partner wears off, the partner reorients to all the components of her life and remembers her spouse (or his. NRE works for both) She may not have opportunity to become acclimated so the thrill will last an unusually long time. Polyandry can happen, to be sure. Maybe less action with you than her fresh fella. Adding in a second lady will still be the right move. You may enjoy some NRE of your own, your wife may find your success attractive/sexy. You may rely on her less for companionship and the independence can also be attractive to a lady. I'd love to hear a second success story with polyamory having been the answer (Jerri's story being the example).
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sufferinhubby
Junior Member

My marriage is not a tragedy. It's more like a romantic comedy without the romance
Posts: 67
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by sufferinhubby on Jan 29, 2021 8:11:19 GMT -5
I honestly don't mind the neglect from my wife. I'm used to it and I honestly mean it when I say it doesn't make me jealous that she has a boyfriend. Apocrypha my criteria for "if it fails" is if it fails for me. One year in, and my refuser is enjoying sex anew while I am still staring into computer screens. I will wait out this pandemic, get vaccinated, then give it six months or a year before I decide whether or not this works for me. jerri - if my wife was the kind of person who was willing to swap at swinger's clubs we probably wouldn't be in this situation. But I wonder what she would say if her new bf brought up the idea. And if suddenly her libido was awakened to the point she was shagging me and him I would consider that progress at this point. So why don't I just get divorced? Well there's the kids, but my parents got divorced and I survived so that's not even my primary worry. I haven't consulted a lawyer, but I have consulted a few friends who have been through it. In my situation I probably earn 10x what my wife does. She made sacrifices in her career to raise our children. She moved to part-time work (eliminating any prospects for promotion), got laid off, now works seasonal part-time jobs at farm markets etc. Also I watched her sister get divorced, and I couldn't believe the mean-spirited and vengeful person my sister inlaw became, with my wife as her bloodthirsty cheerleader. There wasn't just the unequal and unfair "split" of assets. There was alimony, child support, the legal fees were astronomical and dragged on for years. The children suffered. It was horrible to watch. After my parents divorced my mother kept the house and my dad, weighed down financially, lived in a series of shitty apartments for decades while he recouped his finances. He was in his thirties. I am 50. Right now my wife is happy shagging her new bf. As Apocrypha and jerri mentioned, there are communities I can turn to that can help. This damn pandemic has put alot of that on hold but I registered for my vaccine and I am am really ready to step out into the world. An open marriage may work. I have to give it my best try.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 29, 2021 16:06:34 GMT -5
Right now my wife is happy shagging her new bf. As Apocrypha and jerri mentioned, there are communities I can turn to that can help. This damn pandemic has put alot of that on hold but I registered for my vaccine and I am am really ready to step out into the world. An open marriage may work. I have to give it my best try. I'm not sure I understand the direction you are going, based on what you said. If you "don't mind the neglect from your wife" while she is with other people, then did you mind it before? Do you regard the sexless marriage as a problem at all? Or, that there is a reason somewhere that you are sexless in this marriage, but it isn't shared? If she doesn't want to have sex with you, and you don't mind that either... are you suggesting that the celibacy issue (at least with respect to her), is not really a problem in this case? If so, I apologize - I assumed you were trying to correct something that you felt was missing - but I may have just been projecting what I remember as my own situation. It seems to me that what's developing between you is just her doing her own thing. I don't really see that much in what I used to recognize as an open marriage in the community, but your mileage may vary. Recognize and be ready for - if/when you jump into the same activity some years from now, that she may instantly react (as my wife did) as if you had cheated on her. She may instantly try to invoke a a divorce. Mine hit me. She'd been with someone, herself, for a year. Sure, you have to give it your best try. I guess, I'd want to be very clear on what you are trying - what problem are you trying to solve?
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sufferinhubby
Junior Member

My marriage is not a tragedy. It's more like a romantic comedy without the romance
Posts: 67
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by sufferinhubby on Jan 29, 2021 16:54:59 GMT -5
If you "don't mind the neglect from your wife" while she is with other people, then did you mind it before? Do you regard the sexless marriage as a problem at all? Or, that there is a reason somewhere that you are sexless in this marriage, but it isn't shared? If she doesn't want to have sex with you, and you don't mind that either... are you suggesting that the celibacy issue (at least with respect to her), is not really a problem in this case? If so, I apologize - I assumed you were trying to correct something that you felt was missing - but I may have just been projecting what I remember as my own situation. To answer your question Apocrypha, after maybe 15 years of SM it finally dawned on me that my wife has issues that prevent her from processing pleasure. Not physical issues but mental ones. Some of that is her nature, but being raised in a strict Catholic household sure didn't help. She can totally embrace suffering, but pleasure has never sat well with my wife. She is extremely uncomfortable with it. I could give you a million examples and it took me way to long to realize that simple trait about her and once I did the futility of my situation became apparent and I pretty much stopped entertaining the possibility of "fixing" this. Did I mind the neglect? I spent 15 miserable sleepless years eating my heart out. I lost count of the "heart-to-heart" conversations that resulted in zilch. My SM was more than a thorn in my side it was a heavy weight I bore night and day. Donald Trump could have built his fucking wall out of my resentment it's so big and insurmountable and could stretch from the Gulf of Mexico to San Diego. So if she can't process pleasure why is she fucking this guy? I don't know but she did the same with me at first too. Two months after we got married she literally sat me down and told me how she doesn't enjoy sex. You could have fooled me but it turned out she was right. On average we had sex 2 or 3 times a year although now its been two full years. I considered divorcing her early on and kick myself for not. Instead we had kids and I tried - like a dope - to fix our SM. At this point, as I outlined above, I feel a divorce would be disastrous for me and, once again, she would come out on top while I got a kick in the nuts. So we are doing the open marriage thing because it was that or divorce. I made the ultimatum. To my surprise she is doing this - and seemingly enjoying it. Maybe this unconventional approach will be how we get through this. If we both find sex partners that work in this context maybe - just maybe - this arrangement will give us both what we were missing. It works for some couples... maybe this will work for us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 18:08:19 GMT -5
thank you baza . It took me 15 years to have the 20 minute conversation I wish I had 10 years ago. In my experience (54YO Male) the results of that conversation would have been the same. Speaking for myself on your situation, my W has communicated that "I'm just not into sex" and that has allowed me to process the SM as "She's not into sex" kind of like I'm not into macramé or butterfly collecting. If she, after years of neglecting the marriage bed, suddenly was "into sex with someone else" then things in my choosing-to-stay marriage would shift quickly. Now we would be in "she doesn't want to have sex WITH YOU" (a Bazaism). Marriage over but that's just me and I'm kind of crabby today.
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