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Post by worksforme2 on Aug 18, 2020 18:11:31 GMT -5
May I ask why females are “hotter property” than males? Assuming there is an equal number of single males and females I do not understand why it wouldn’t be equitable. . The polyamory podcasts and websites indicate that the number of gents willing to date married women are plentiful. Double so if the husband is ok with it. (or demonstrably trying to date like yours.) Women are, statistically, interested in monogamy/marriage. This rules out married men. Look on any dating site and many a profile explicitly warns away married men. Men, stereotypically, are not concerned with long-term bonding as a requirement for physical intimacy. A married partner is just as pleasant for company. Some folks here may have more first hand knowledge to disabuse me of what I've heard. mirroechid is right in his explanations. Why does the urban legend that all men are "horn dogs" permeate many/most discussions regarding sexual desire or drive? Take it all the way back to your high school days. Why do so many females prefer to be wall flowers than accept an offer to dance? Why aren't the women asking the males to dance? Go on most any dating site, why do males outnumber females by sizable %ages? Add to the comparisons that most men are comfortable compartmentalizing the sex act. Emotions don't get in the way much. How many times have the women on this forum expressed that they would need to be emotionally invested before engaging in sex. I still have that crisp $100 bill and I would willingly put it up in a bet that if a man and a woman ( both reasonably attractive) each advertised a willingness to engage in NSA sex the woman would receive probably 10 times the offers the male received.
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Post by isthisit on Aug 18, 2020 19:11:55 GMT -5
Goodness me, we have our wires crossed here. I am afraid I was not referring to polyamory, NSA hook ups, looking for married people or any other exotic forms of casual shagging. More x1 person of gender A seeks x1 person of gender B for gentle dating with a view to the possibility of a monogamous relationship.
I am not sure why you assumed this was the case. So, under these more garden variety conditions women & men are more equal?
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 18, 2020 19:18:04 GMT -5
My STBX begged me to keep it this way I mean, 2020 has been a shit show on a personal level for everyone I know, on a local and global level so my small story is not much to whine about. In better news I have been consistently exercising, eating well, not drinking alcohol, meditating, and staying in close connection with friends and family. These things are keeping me going and have been really good. I feel very much that I am living one day at a time right now. And trying to dream of a future that looks very different. Thanks for the update! Please pardon my harsh tone. It troubles me to see you ....still being codependent on pleasing the family. ONLY because I was (and in some cases still am ) guilty of the same thing. Family first!! You.... dead last . (doormat) It will take a lot of time and continual support to break yourself of this. It is possible. "BEGGED" a key word. Why does he do this? Because it works! "My story is not much"....Your story is EVERYTHING!! IF you don't make yourself the No. 1 priority ..who will? Your family? PPHHFFTT!! Put yourself 1st and family 2nd. If the "family" is so important, than healing thyself IS healing the family! YOU are their role model! Losing a family member can seem unfathomable, and yet... you have been giving, giving, giving, of yourself for decades. There's nothing left! Barely a shell! Time for taking! " whomever gives up his life because of me, will have it given back to him". Time for having your life given back to you! ( a future that looks very different) ( I , lost my family through my divorce. I'm actually okay with that. Their stress, problems, lies, fears, and anxieties are no longer a chain around me) Enough of my soapbox! I'm 3 years ahead of you. Dating was therapy for me. Even the bad, the red flags that I learned about, was a time when an attractive woman showed desire for me. Just that, alone is some strong, healing medicine ,after years of rejection wounds! Something your very sought after 5'9" frame will find a giddy experience, once you are cherished , RESPECTED and desired !! Often and regularly by someone who you feel the same way about! Sounds like a Divorce Recovery group is in order?
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Post by mirrororchid on Aug 20, 2020 5:56:23 GMT -5
Goodness me, we have our wires crossed here. I am afraid I was not referring to polyamory, NSA hook ups, looking for married people or any other exotic forms of casual shagging. More x1 person of gender A seeks x1 person of gender B for gentle dating with a view to the possibility of a monogamous relationship. I am not sure why you assumed this was the case. So, under these more garden variety conditions women & men are more equal? The value of women over men in dating was referring to @workingonit 's husband having been given permission to outsource. "A new challenge recently has been that H has been dating, well trying to date. He uses Tinder and struggles to establish a connection and has twice been ghosted after 1 date and very recently saw a woman four times before being kicked to the curb. I was wholly unfazed by this. As long as he kept to our conditions of being discreet and ensured the dates stayed well away from our home I was fine with it. After all if he was cheered up it was to my advantage. A really weird thing happened though. When single he was his usual pleasant and cordial self. As soon as he was dating he became hostile and pretty unbearable towards me. I cannot work that out at all, I would guess it would be the other way around."Thus,. the context for women being in much more demand. As for referring to polyamory as "casual shagging"? That comment might be met with a polite smile and your conversation partner walking away mysteriously. "Garden variety" may indicate the most common conditions, but that does not make polyamory "exotic". At least in America, people are largely unaware of how common sexless marriages are which are NOT monogamous. They are agamous masquerading as one on one intimacy. As for how exotic the 1 to 1 getting to know you wholesome movie romance goes. Polyamory suggests that such activity can be equally pleasant with more than one partner. In fact, when celibacy before marriage was expected, having multiple prospects was the norm. Platonic polyamory of a sort. In the 21st century with reliable birth control available, society is adopting these older courtship relationships with the sex added in. The expression "friends with benefits" is a turn of phrase because its increased usage. While the men and women seek out the long term relationship, I dare say a not unsubstantial portion of the men would be only too happy to have multiple intimate sexual partners. It is their incapacity to negotiate such a situation that makes them as amenable to monogamy as they are. Men generally prefer monogamy over agamy by an extraordinary amount. They do not prefer it to polyamory. They merely recognize the likelihood of its possibility and value their monogamous relationships strongly so as to avoid agamy. Gents with money, good looks, or a silver tongue may be able to manage, and often do so, at least until they tire of it or desire a family that benefits from full investment in a partner parent. Having more than one of these special attractive quantities increases the capability to maintain more than one intimate relationship. There are women that also value multiple male partners and prefer that dynamic, but they are fewer in number, by my estimation and that of worksforme2 . (it seems) As a final note, the idea that multiple partners are casual is not necessarily true either. jerri has had a lover for over 10 years, outlasting most marriages. Perhaps there's nothing there beyond a physical bond, but it's a bit cheeky to assume as much. Polycules are also more comfortable with the idea that there can be natural closures to relationships. Parting ways need not be seen as traumatic or tragic. It can also be seen as perfectly welcome to rejoin later where divorced spouses remarrying can gain looks of incredulity from onlookers who wonder why this couple is getting a second toaster or blender from their friends. There may exist a continuum of commitment in poly. That which goes deeper than many marriages, as well as clear-eyed one night stands. The one size fits all cliche has its flaws and there's only so long before the fiction will fall away and realistic expectations of the complexity of people will be accepted in all its messy beauty. To focus on the question, I believe women seek monogamy on purpose. Once they have it they seek to keep it. (too often assuming erroenously that staying in a celibate marriage is monogamy) Fewer men seek and value monogamy. Men that do, often find it and stay with it. Men that seek it commonly cannot find it through flaws of character or circumstance. What we see in society is a complaint that "all the good ones are taken". This sentiment is greatly skewed towards the females. I've never heard a man say that. In this dynamic, quality monogamy-minded men are the smoking hot lava level property. Thus their perceived unavailability. Less desirable monogamy minded men are not hot property. Surely the women complaining about their prospects know plenty of single men. None of whom they would like to pair up with. This means a few high value men willing to be loyal, and a plethora of castoffs. Nope. In "garden variety" romance. Men, as a class, are still room temperature.
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Post by isthisit on Aug 20, 2020 7:51:47 GMT -5
Ummmm, you’re wrong there the quote you used was actually my text referring to my H, not workingonit. My H does not need my permission to do anything, we are separated. He would never consider outsourcing for a second.
About your other point. I did not refer to polyamory as casual shagging, if you look I used my language very carefully there “OR other exotic forms of casual shagging”.
It’s important to get it right.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 20, 2020 11:24:51 GMT -5
It's possible, he's unhappy that women seem to find him less than great company. An opinion you share. An opinion he may have been convinced was incorrect, but is staring at evidence of its veracity full in the face. No one likes to think they're the villain of their own story. Maybe his mood is a sign of his inner turmoil. There may be a general misogyny developing where all women are monsters. Red pill stuff. It's not HIS problem. It's unreasonable expectations! Just a guess. If you start dating successfully, I'm not sure I like the silly ideas that might start floating around in his head. (Totally his problem, of course. You do you.) A lot of guys in open marriage get slapped pretty hard by the reality check that women are much "hotter property" in open marriages. We're talking Lava vs. school cafeteria food. Thank you for your thoughts, it is very helpful to have a male perspective on it. I had not considered your points. May I ask why females are “hotter property” than males? Assuming there is an equal number of single males and females I do not understand why it wouldn’t be equitable. Apologies in advance if this is a dumb question. It's counterintuitive but a common result in marital therapy that when a person feels they are are in an intimate relationship and they engage in an affair, that their hostility level to their primary partner escalates dramatically - and they tend to start a lot of stupid fights. Anecdotally, when my ex-wife was having an affair - her level of absurd hostility at home escalated dramatically. So if it's possible that he still conceives of you as his primary partner, this could be a result. Also, it's absolutely true that women tend to hold more cards in the dating scene today - both in monogamous and non-monogamous situations. Online dating automates and amplifies existing behavior patterns and differences. Basically, men have a lower threshold to say yes to sex with no strings. That makes male suitors cheap and plentiful online - easily replaced. If you create a fake male account and compare the responses to a female account, you will see a massive difference. It's not just in online dating - you could see this in prostitution as well. There isn't a high demand among women for male prostitutes. There are far more male prostitutes offering services to other men. Within the consensual non-monogamy community, this is amplified even more. Married men who are engaged in "consensual non-monogamy" are a dime a dozen, and as such - they don't really seem all that special - which is likely what a woman wants when selecting from a lot of guys - special. Anecdotally, after years in that community, I think perhaps that many still apply their vanilla preferences or instincts when choosing a paramour. Meaning for the guy - that he needs to walk a razor thin tightrope of presenting as "husband material" while still offering sexual excitement and variety. And thus, even though it makes no sense and isn't fair - a "husband material" guy who is seeking non-monogamy, tends to invalidate his own quality as special, by seeking that situation.
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Post by sadkat on Aug 20, 2020 11:40:41 GMT -5
I am a sexual woman who highly values monogamy. Those men who prefer polyamory would have no place in my life. I am separated, soon to be divorced. I did so in hopes of finding that one man who will give me what I yearn for- a monogamous sexual and emotional connection. I hope you’re wrong, @mirrorchild, that there are few of them out there. That being said, I would give more credence to your opinions on polyamory if you were also separated. To me, seeking polyamory while in a monogamous marriage is a justification for outsourcing. And, if you are not getting your sexual needs met by your monogamous partner, there is no need to justify outsourcing- in my opinion.
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Post by Handy on Aug 20, 2020 13:29:30 GMT -5
Sadkat I did so in hopes of finding that one man who will give me what I yearn for- a monogamous sexual and emotional connection.
That "one person" deal would be my preference. A one woman man is out there but maybe a little less conspicuous than the guys that flirt more than my natural style or beyond my comfort zone.
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Post by isthisit on Aug 20, 2020 14:35:22 GMT -5
I am a sexual woman who highly values monogamy. Those men who prefer polyamory would have no place in my life. I am separated, soon to be divorced. I did so in hopes of finding that one man who will give me what I yearn for- a monogamous sexual and emotional connection. I hope you’re wrong, @mirrorchild, that there are few of them out there. That being said, I would give more credence to your opinions on polyamory if you were also separated. To me, seeking polyamory while in a monogamous marriage is a justification for outsourcing. And, if you are not getting your sexual needs met by your monogamous partner, there is no need to justify outsourcing- in my opinion. Another here hoping that you are not quite on the money here. I also have no interest in non monogamous situations. Have a huge amount of fun to those into this as long as it’s all open and honest, just not my thing. Also, if a man I was with purported to be monogamous but was practising otherwise I would not be too tolerant of polyamory or any other term for the deception. Trust is binary.
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Post by isthisit on Aug 20, 2020 14:52:58 GMT -5
Thank you for your thoughts, it is very helpful to have a male perspective on it. I had not considered your points. May I ask why females are “hotter property” than males? Assuming there is an equal number of single males and females I do not understand why it wouldn’t be equitable. Apologies in advance if this is a dumb question. It's counterintuitive but a common result in marital therapy that when a person feels they are are in an intimate relationship and they engage in an affair, that their hostility level to their primary partner escalates dramatically - and they tend to start a lot of stupid fights. Anecdotally, when my ex-wife was having an affair - her level of absurd hostility at home escalated dramatically. So if it's possible that he still conceives of you as his primary partner, this could be a result. Also, it's absolutely true that women tend to hold more cards in the dating scene today - both in monogamous and non-monogamous situations. Online dating automates and amplifies existing behavior patterns and differences. Basically, men have a lower threshold to say yes to sex with no strings. That makes male suitors cheap and plentiful online - easily replaced. If you create a fake male account and compare the responses to a female account, you will see a massive difference. It's not just in online dating - you could see this in prostitution as well. There isn't a high demand among women for male prostitutes. There are far more male prostitutes offering services to other men. Within the consensual non-monogamy community, this is amplified even more. Married men who are engaged in "consensual non-monogamy" are a dime a dozen, and as such - they don't really seem all that special - which is likely what a woman wants when selecting from a lot of guys - special. Anecdotally, after years in that community, I think perhaps that many still apply their vanilla preferences or instincts when choosing a paramour. Meaning for the guy - that he needs to walk a razor thin tightrope of presenting as "husband material" while still offering sexual excitement and variety. And thus, even though it makes no sense and isn't fair - a "husband material" guy who is seeking non-monogamy, tends to invalidate his own quality as special, by seeking that situation. Thank you for the thoughts on the underlying reason for H’s hostility. It just never occurred to me that he still views me (either consciously or unconsciously) as his primary partner. Urgh, I’m not sure I like that idea too much at all. You are correct it does feel counterintuitive for the cheating partner to feel hostile toward the cheated. Possibly related is a hypothesis of a friend of mine who suggests that H finds the whole dating thing stressful and therefore in those moments blames me for leaving the marriage and placing him in that situation. That’s logical to some extent, but if H put this to me he would get a swift “so quit Tinder then” right back at him. I’m not going to comment about the non monogamous relationship dynamics I have no knowledge or interest in this aspect of life. In monogamous deals I guess as a concept your point irritates me a bit as it leans towards that assumption that men just like, want and need sex more than women. Evidence right here that this is not so. Despite this, I think that you are likely right though, as across the population men do seem to have a lower threshold for NSA transient encounters. Certainly male friends of mine reflect in their youth in this way. In middle age? Perhaps less so.
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Post by saarinista on Aug 20, 2020 15:31:39 GMT -5
One reason I'm still in my marriage is that I'm not very interested in just being one of many flings for some guy, either. Unfortunately, at my age or any age, the number of guys interested in more than screwing around is tiny, in my experience.
I understand why men are afraid to commit. I would be glad to sign a prenup. I'm not looking to bankrupt anyone or screw over their kids. Heck, maybe I'd be a committed non marital partner. I don't know.
But being a FWB or fuck buddy doesn't sound too appealing at my age. I want to love, and I want to be loved. I'm more than a vagina. I'm a woman.
That's just me. No shade on anyone into FWB. It's just that I don't think I'm after that.
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Post by isthisit on Aug 20, 2020 15:32:15 GMT -5
Mr. workingonit There was a time (in AL, if nowhere else) when people would work their way through school. Can you take off a semester and work and eat sardines and vienna sausages and ramen noodles while you save up for next semester’s tuition? Also, college kids sometimes have roommates other than their ex’s to save on rent (in AL, if nowhere else) Just a couple of my cents. 🤔 Hooray....I am so pleased you said this- everyone I know with a PhD worked full time in very demanding occupations I may add, whilst squeezing their doctorate into nooks and crannies of time. At least on this occasion the economically inactive spouse is male!!! I’m nothing if not inclusive in my intolerance of freeloading.
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Post by sadkat on Aug 20, 2020 16:54:42 GMT -5
One reason I'm still in my marriage is that I'm not very interested in just being one of many flings for some guy, either. Unfortunately, at my age or any age, the number of guys interested in more than screwing around is tiny, in my experience. I understand why men are afraid to commit. I would be glad to sign a prenup. I'm not looking to bankrupt anyone or screw over their kids. Heck, maybe I'd be a committed non marital partner. I don't know. But being a FWB or fuck buddy doesn't sound too appealing at my age. I want to love, and I want to be loved. I'm more than a vagina. I'm a woman. That's just me. No shade on anyone into FWB. It's just that I don't think I'm after that. I totally agree with you saarinista. When I first exited my marriage, I was so exhausted from the emotional turmoil that I briefly entertained the concept of FWB (because, after over 20 years of complete sexlessness, I just wanted sex!). Now that I’ve been out for 10 months, I realize it’s just not who I am. I’m a woman with a lot of love to give and want to be loved in return. Surely there are men out there our age with the same desires?
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Post by mirrororchid on Aug 20, 2020 19:01:04 GMT -5
Ummmm, you’re wrong there the quote you used was actually my text referring to my H, not workingonit. My H does not need my permission to do anything, we are separated. He would never consider outsourcing for a second. About your other point. I did not refer to polyamory as casual shagging, if you look I used my language very carefully there “OR other exotic forms of casual shagging”. It’s important to get it right. Ok, misunderstood. He was single AFTER a divorce. He was pleasant as an EX-husband when single, irritable when getting rejected. Yes, important to get it right. the word "other" made me think you felt poly was one of the exotic forms of casual shagging. As to the original question, did any of it resonate? In terms of males, in general, being less sought after? On an individual basis. As a group, with hot, rich, or charming individuals getting a lion's share, your 1:1 ratio would make mathematical sense. This would say a few males are volcanic hot, while many more were not so much. The crazy levels of demand for the handsome, rich, or charming may be offputting and lower even the hottest men's demand.
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Post by mirrororchid on Aug 20, 2020 19:13:55 GMT -5
I am a sexual woman who highly values monogamy. Those men who prefer polyamory would have no place in my life. I am separated, soon to be divorced. I did so in hopes of finding that one man who will give me what I yearn for- a monogamous sexual and emotional connection. I hope you’re wrong, @mirrorchild, that there are few of them out there. That being said, I would give more credence to your opinions on polyamory if you were also separated. To me, seeking polyamory while in a monogamous marriage is a justification for outsourcing. And, if you are not getting your sexual needs met by your monogamous partner, there is no need to justify outsourcing- in my opinion. If I didn't stress it enough. Few men can manage polyamory due to lack of interest by prospective partners. That is, too many women feel like you do. Most men realize that multiple partners is too much to ask of life and they'll be monogamous and happy with it. It makes many wives happy for their husbands to be intimate with only them. This is a compelling lure. It's not a difficult daydream to dismiss. Monogamy has its advantages. It's still the norm, and may remain a majority of relationships even after the stigma has all but desisted. I cannot say.
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