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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 14, 2020 10:22:20 GMT -5
medium.com/blunt-therapy/how-to-ruin-a-great-relationship-in-8-easy-steps-829ce4aa7e07Recently I have been active on another site for people who are dealing with covert narcissism. Sadly many of them ,after getting discarded,or detaching from a narc. go through the faze -some choose this for the rest of their life- of: I will never be in another relationship. My children are my world. My children will ALWAYS come first. All men/women are scum! I'd rather live alone with my cat. Don't these sound like wonderful people that you would want to trust, be open with, and give your heart too? Don't be like them as you recover from a SM!
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Post by workingonit on Feb 14, 2020 10:52:01 GMT -5
medium.com/blunt-therapy/how-to-ruin-a-great-relationship-in-8-easy-steps-829ce4aa7e07Recently I have been active on another site for people who are dealing with covert narcissism. Sadly many of them ,after getting discarded,or detaching from a narc. go through the faze -some choose this for the rest of their life- of: I will never be in another relationship. My children are my world. My children will ALWAYS come first. All men/women are scum! I'd rather live alone with my cat. Don't these sound like wonderful people that you would want to trust, be open with, and give your heart too? Don't be like them as you recover from a SM! Interesting. My husband said a few weeks ago "I will never trust anyone again. I tried that with you but never again." My response? "That is an interesting choice you are making. Hope it serves you." |
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Post by baza on Feb 14, 2020 19:09:08 GMT -5
If you (or me, or anyone) want a sure fire method of fucking their life up, then "dealing in absolutes" is the best way of doing so. The choices one makes today have to be based on current facts, as they stand today. If you are making your choices today, but based on what the facts were yesterday, or on a dogma you adopted years ago then you are in for a world of hurt. Take Mr workingonit statement above - "I will never trust anyone again" That condemns him to only having relationships with people he doesn't trust, or having no further relationships. It is rather difficult to see this mindset as being a life enhancing approach. It's like getting married. On the facts as you knew them at the time, getting married may have been a good choice. But if the facts change (say your marriage morphing in to an ILIASM shithole) then the choices you make in light of the facts as they are today need to be reflective of that. Making todays choices based on yesterdays facts (or old dogma) is not a life enhancing strategy. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 14, 2020 22:56:56 GMT -5
medium.com/blunt-therapy/how-to-ruin-a-great-relationship-in-8-easy-steps-829ce4aa7e07Recently I have been active on another site for people who are dealing with covert narcissism. Sadly many of them ,after getting discarded,or detaching from a narc. go through the faze -some choose this for the rest of their life- of: I will never be in another relationship. My children are my world. My children will ALWAYS come first. All men/women are scum! I'd rather live alone with my cat. Don't these sound like wonderful people that you would want to trust, be open with, and give your heart too? Don't be like them as you recover from a SM! Interesting. My husband said a few weeks ago "I will never trust anyone again. I tried that with you but never again." My response? "That is an interesting choice you are making. Hope it serves you." His response says A LOT! He is (and will always be) the victim, who lives in denial of any responsibility. Not surprised after reading all that you have shared. When your exit day comes there will be that time of 'grieving' a bit of second guessing,and doubt. All part of 'the healing process' as you learn to take risks and trust again with your new found self esteem. I am believing that you are already detached, and are recovering ,and rebuilding while married in name only. This article is a good one that warns you of all the obstacles ahead of you. Especially the influence of friends, coworkers, and family. |
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Post by solodriver on Feb 15, 2020 14:17:33 GMT -5
Greatcoastal said: "I am believing that you are already detached, and are recovering ,and rebuilding while married in name only. This article is a good one that warns you of all the obstacles ahead of you. Especially the influence of friends, coworkers, and family."
That's exactly what I've been doing until I can financially make the separation. It's hard some days, like holidays, but at least mentally, it has helped me so much. to be emotionally separated. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 15, 2020 20:08:05 GMT -5
Greatcoastal said: "I am believing that you are already detached, and are recovering ,and rebuilding while married in name only. This article is a good one that warns you of all the obstacles ahead of you. Especially the influence of friends, coworkers, and family."
That's exactly what I've been doing until I can financially make the separation. It's hard some days, like holidays, but at least mentally, it has helped me so much. to be emotionally separated. BRAVO on the emotional detachment!!! Here's an article that you can relate to. The good part is that, this is in the past, and that we (those who choose to not be held hostage by a SM manipulator) are moving forward and healing. medium.com/@tiffsanya/5-toxic-moves-that-we-mistake-for-love-4204500bc79d |
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Post by warmways on Feb 15, 2020 22:22:08 GMT -5
I also detached in that last year before I left. Its been a series of stages to go through with each one bringing me closer to feeling better and open to a relationship again. Feeling so happy to be out of the toxicity I used to joke that I never wanted to be married again but that was because of the extreme freedom and happiness from being on my own and I did get a cat  but that was just one of many stages I moved through. I know I’ll find that again but for me it takes a long time to heal which I’m still doing. Covert narcissism wreaks havoc but within that storm I always knew someday I’d meet someone and have a real connection. |
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Post by Caris on Mar 12, 2020 20:43:49 GMT -5
I really find the tone of this thread judgmental. It’s like anyone who ever left a SM has to have a happy ending, or there is something wrong with them. If they don’t trust, there is something wrong with them, and then you get on your high horse, and disparage those who don’t live up to YOUR standards of acceptance for THEIR life. Not very accepting of differences is it? It’s basically, if you don’t succeed in having a great life post SM, after a certain amount of time has passed, well its your own fault, so you didn’t succeed in your marriage, and the so called support group is also deeming you a loser. Not much support when you dis others who haven’t been so fortunate to be like you. People can’t trust to order, and sometimes it never comes back. You can be betrayed too many times, by too many primary people in your life, to ever trust again. But the attitude here is to dis the poor sods who went through hell.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 18, 2020 9:07:40 GMT -5
I really find the tone of this thread judgmental. It’s like anyone who ever left a SM has to have a happy ending, or there is something wrong with them. If they don’t trust, there is something wrong with them, and then you get on your high horse, and disparage those who don’t live up to YOUR standards of acceptance for THEIR life. Not very accepting of differences is it? It’s basically, if you don’t succeed in having a great life post SM, after a certain amount of time has passed, well its your own fault, so you didn’t succeed in your marriage, and the so called support group is also deeming you a loser. Not much support when you dis others who haven’t been so fortunate to be like you. People can’t trust to order, and sometimes it never comes back. You can be betrayed too many times, by too many primary people in your life, to ever trust again. But the attitude here is to dis the poor sods who went through hell. Caris, I've been back on the dating market again after a 2-year relationship and a 1-year relationship. Across the 11 first dates, a few second, and 5 dating apps in a metropolitan city, I have a perspective on the observation. Here's where I agree with you. There is an annoying narrative in which people like to express a "are you sure you are ready to date?" objection- if any part of one's life has failed to reach perfection and perfect fulfillment alone, AND a (usually lengthy) period of time has elapsed. For example, while chatting on a dating app, with a woman who claimed to be 4 years single/alone after her marriage (by design - a red flag IMO) she made a pointed objection that I was dating two months after a 2 year relationship. I countered that I'm in my late 40's, and that waiting the two years she suggested to "be ready" would be the entire length of the relationship. For what purpose? And would my life be free of difficulty two years from now? I am a person who believes that we are all a little better when we feel loved - I know I am. And while I might still have things to learn, those are often learned within relationships to different people, in different ways of relating. I don't think that's what baza and the others are suggesting here, that people need to sit frozen in a penalty box until a timer runs out or until some magical Utopia arrives in which late 40's problems suddenly disappear and the way is clear. To their point, what I've frequently observed are some women who post their own dysfunction and intentions right in their dating profiles, front and centre, and state it almost immediately in sitting down to a "how do you do?" Their profiles state their disdain for men, their militant politics that embody that disdain, with words like "unapologetic" telegraphing their inflexibility. They pre-load their hatred of men so much that they all but guarantee that the only guys who connect all the way through with them will be those whose relationship goals aren't affected by the fact that they hate men. It guarantees a pure and steady source of contemptible men for them, so they can continue to enact and feel validated by their view of the world. Another, less toxic pattern, is embodied by the ones who are more optimistic and capable. Instead of expressing contempt, they prioritize their indifference. They claim their lives are perfect, jobs are perfect, are well supported by friends and family, have activities programmed 7 days a week, feel absolutely no urgency for male romantic companionship. This isn't a bad thing necessarily - and I suspect it is the intended product of robust individual therapy, building up a strong individual. It's hard to argue with that on its own. However, the pattern I'm seeing is that they are frustrated in the area of romance and intimacy and don't understand how or why that is. Some examples:-claiming right in the dating profile that they are in no hurry and feel no urgency to date, intend to take it slow, and are seeking "a friend" and then see. -sitting down on a first date, and making their indifference the first topic of conversation -being too busy to date - between dinner parties, gym, activities, alone time etc - simply being unavailable to establish a basic romantic connection. -not seeing the inconsistency between having an early conversation about the role of sexual intimacy in dating, but readily offering up and establishing availability for significant financial and time investments - such as travelling together in foreign countries/vacations -I'm finding recently - it's because many have a side-guy already that they do not count as a relationship. Specifically, this is a fwb with whom they have a sexual relationship while they go out at a leisurely pace seeking "husband material". From their standpoint, they don't count this as non-monogamy because they don't yet have a sexual relationship with "husband material" and they tend to externalize the blame to men for not stepping up to the plate for a serious relationship. It's absurd - because I have friends like this too, and they are frustrated that they can't seem to find the all in connection they say they want - but cannot comprehend why all this chaffe self-sabotages their efforts when seeking out boyfriend or husband material. This is "ready to date" taken too far. At some point, I think it is appropriate and desirable to appear as a human being, with faults and flaws and still be deserving of love - while approaching those with some humility and authenticity an idea of getting better and making room. |
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Post by caballotierra on Mar 19, 2020 13:50:12 GMT -5
Caris I don't disagree with you! I might also point out to greatcoastal that I have been "that" person at different points during my healing journey. Some days, I've been more than content to be a dad to my kids, period. Other days, yes, my cats have been preferable cuddlers to humans. Currently in my journey, I am looking forward to my pointless upcoming rendezvous with a young woman which will not lead to any sort of a relationship--just human physical interaction. And a month in the future, I might be back to a place of not desire intimacy. Recovering from a broken marriage is a huge spiritual task, and it can feel schizophrenic at times. None of our recoveries or healing is a linear journey. I do agree that setting up absolute believes ("I will never...") just feels unrealistic and foolish. Nothing in life is forever. Nothing. So while I feel right now that getting married again sounds f*cking terrible and about as desirable as forced vomited while having my fingernails pulled out, I could theoretically meet a lovely human someday who earns and deserves my respect and trust. And maybe at that point, a second marriage would sound...feasible. Good for you on speaking up. There's aren't really "successes" here, I think. Just healing. We're all moving out of our own uniquely terrible situations. I hope we are each moving into a place of humility, health, openness, acceptance, and honesty.
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Post by petrushka on Mar 29, 2020 21:09:11 GMT -5
If you (or me, or anyone) want a sure fire method of fucking their life up, then "dealing in absolutes" is the best way of doing so. The choices one makes today have to be based on current facts, as they stand today. If you are making your choices today, but based on what the facts were yesterday, or on a dogma you adopted years ago then you are in for a world of hurt. Take Mr workingonit statement above - "I will never trust anyone again" That condemns him to only having relationships with people he doesn't trust, or having no further relationships. It is rather difficult to see this mindset as being a life enhancing approach. It's like getting married. On the facts as you knew them at the time, getting married may have been a good choice. But if the facts change (say your marriage morphing in to an ILIASM shithole) then the choices you make in light of the facts as they are today need to be reflective of that. Making todays choices based on yesterdays facts (or old dogma) is not a life enhancing strategy. So you have a broken leg. The first time you try to walk on it, it hurts, it god-damned hurts. You don't want THAT feeling again, thank you very much. And the next time you put weight on it it hurts again. And the next time ... Your mind, and your body, learn to avoid walking on that leg. You go "I'll never put weight on that leg again".
That statement does not necessarily have to be taken as gospel. It is just an expression of the current emotional state of the person making it. It will probably already become fluid the next time they need to go down to the shops, but if it's too soon ... predictable outcome. Eventually, however, they may well hop, skip, and jump again. Eventually they will possibly forget they ever had a problem with that leg. That is the usual, the 'normal' course of events. So we can take that initial "I will never ..." as quasi metaphorical hyperbole. They don't mean it as in "forever after, seriously".
However, some people make it dogma. And what if? It's their life, and they can do with it whatever they fucking like. If they take the responsibility to
go about it in such a way, well we may stand off to the side and go "not life enhancing", and we may well be right, but if they don't wanna, then they don't wanna.
Some times the "eventually" can take a long time. After the break-up with my first wife it took me 8 years not to turn into a stiff paralyzed dummy
whenever a woman gave me an emotional hug. Not something I had control over, it was a physical reaction, much like [not] stepping on a broken leg ...
In that light, my ability to ever trust another woman (at 66)(to get deeply emotionally involved without reservation) is very much up in the air. Will ye
or nil ye. I simply don't have any females in my life who could trigger that paralyzing [fear] reaction, so I may never find out.
Shit happens, life goes on. The eternal optimist tries to make the best of it.
Incidentally, I've said in other places many times: people who live their life in absolutes are best avoided in my opinion. Zealots of any kind,
radical raw vegans, evangelical X-tians, socialist agitators, animal rights activists of the PETA kind ... ultimately they don't have room in their life for
other humans, because their 'cause' is overweening.
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Post by JMX on Apr 4, 2020 18:46:25 GMT -5
I really find the tone of this thread judgmental. It’s like anyone who ever left a SM has to have a happy ending, or there is something wrong with them. If they don’t trust, there is something wrong with them, and then you get on your high horse, and disparage those who don’t live up to YOUR standards of acceptance for THEIR life. Not very accepting of differences is it? It’s basically, if you don’t succeed in having a great life post SM, after a certain amount of time has passed, well its your own fault, so you didn’t succeed in your marriage, and the so called support group is also deeming you a loser. Not much support when you dis others who haven’t been so fortunate to be like you. People can’t trust to order, and sometimes it never comes back. You can be betrayed too many times, by too many primary people in your life, to ever trust again. But the attitude here is to dis the poor sods who went through hell. Caris, I've been back on the dating market again after a 2-year relationship and a 1-year relationship. Across the 11 first dates, a few second, and 5 dating apps in a metropolitan city, I have a perspective on the observation. Here's where I agree with you. There is an annoying narrative in which people like to express a "are you sure you are ready to date?" objection- if any part of one's life has failed to reach perfection and perfect fulfillment alone, AND a (usually lengthy) period of time has elapsed. For example, while chatting on a dating app, with a woman who claimed to be 4 years single/alone after her marriage (by design - a red flag IMO) she made a pointed objection that I was dating two months after a 2 year relationship. I countered that I'm in my late 40's, and that waiting the two years she suggested to "be ready" would be the entire length of the relationship. For what purpose? And would my life be free of difficulty two years from now? I am a person who believes that we are all a little better when we feel loved - I know I am. And while I might still have things to learn, those are often learned within relationships to different people, in different ways of relating. I don't think that's what baza and the others are suggesting here, that people need to sit frozen in a penalty box until a timer runs out or until some magical Utopia arrives in which late 40's problems suddenly disappear and the way is clear. To their point, what I've frequently observed are some women who post their own dysfunction and intentions right in their dating profiles, front and centre, and state it almost immediately in sitting down to a "how do you do?" Their profiles state their disdain for men, their militant politics that embody that disdain, with words like "unapologetic" telegraphing their inflexibility. They pre-load their hatred of men so much that they all but guarantee that the only guys who connect all the way through with them will be those whose relationship goals aren't affected by the fact that they hate men. It guarantees a pure and steady source of contemptible men for them, so they can continue to enact and feel validated by their view of the world. Another, less toxic pattern, is embodied by the ones who are more optimistic and capable. Instead of expressing contempt, they prioritize their indifference. They claim their lives are perfect, jobs are perfect, are well supported by friends and family, have activities programmed 7 days a week, feel absolutely no urgency for male romantic companionship. This isn't a bad thing necessarily - and I suspect it is the intended product of robust individual therapy, building up a strong individual. It's hard to argue with that on its own. However, the pattern I'm seeing is that they are frustrated in the area of romance and intimacy and don't understand how or why that is. Some examples:-claiming right in the dating profile that they are in no hurry and feel no urgency to date, intend to take it slow, and are seeking "a friend" and then see. -sitting down on a first date, and making their indifference the first topic of conversation -being too busy to date - between dinner parties, gym, activities, alone time etc - simply being unavailable to establish a basic romantic connection. -not seeing the inconsistency between having an early conversation about the role of sexual intimacy in dating, but readily offering up and establishing availability for significant financial and time investments - such as travelling together in foreign countries/vacations -I'm finding recently - it's because many have a side-guy already that they do not count as a relationship. Specifically, this is a fwb with whom they have a sexual relationship while they go out at a leisurely pace seeking "husband material". From their standpoint, they don't count this as non-monogamy because they don't yet have a sexual relationship with "husband material" and they tend to externalize the blame to men for not stepping up to the plate for a serious relationship. It's absurd - because I have friends like this too, and they are frustrated that they can't seem to find the all in connection they say they want - but cannot comprehend why all this chaffe self-sabotages their efforts when seeking out boyfriend or husband material. This is "ready to date" taken too far. At some point, I think it is appropriate and desirable to appear as a human being, with faults and flaws and still be deserving of love - while approaching those with some humility and authenticity an idea of getting better and making room. I really love this. |
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but that was just one of many stages I moved through. I know I’ll find that again but for me it takes a long time to heal which I’m still doing. 
