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Post by Dan on Aug 10, 2018 8:15:33 GMT -5
Upon seeing the title of the thread " The stay or leave dichotomy", I had this thought: I think that "staying" itself is of two major flavors: - I'm staying, period. I'm going to get by somehow: change what I can in my spouse, change what I can in me to be happier. But I'm really permanently, unequivocally staying.
- I'm staying.... for now. Not sure if and when I'll pull the trigger... but I sure do think about it.
Note that both flavors have their upsides and downsides: - If you are definitely staying, well, you are now past the point of having to decide, so that is settled. Now you just have to learn to cope with your decision.
- If you are "staying for now", that means you are on the fence. Not only do you have to "cope for now", but you are continuously reevaluating your options, your plans. You are continually second guessing yourself. Wondering if a positive movement in your spouse is the start of a trend, fleeting, or even disingenuous.
Me: I'm in the second category. Frankly: it's exhausting. |
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Post by takestwototango on Aug 10, 2018 8:50:09 GMT -5
Absolutely, Dan!
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Post by workingonit on Aug 10, 2018 8:51:10 GMT -5
I am also in the second category and it does indeed suck. Of course, all paths have the things that suck about them surely. But the feeling pretty darn sure you are leaving but are choosing to stay for now is unsettling. I dont like it!!
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Post by Dan on Aug 10, 2018 9:01:06 GMT -5
My advice (the poetic phrasing borrows from some religious writings I am familiar with):
And yet, while oh so draining, there is something cleansing about those winds as well. My wife is going to have to deal with our divorce after I tell her about it; I've been mentally preparing for it for quite a while.
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Post by workingonit on Aug 10, 2018 9:05:09 GMT -5
Dan that quote is perfect! And agreed, I feel like when the choosing to stay changes to choosing to leave I will be very ready emotionally. I have already/am already mourning this relationship
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Post by baza on Aug 14, 2018 23:07:02 GMT -5
Here's another view to consider.
These situations are NOT where you are standing off to one side and taking a look at 2 new paths you could take.
The fact is that you are already on one of the paths, and have been for quite a while.
That choice was one you made a while back.
That's your current reality, that's what you are living right here and now.
You are not, really, "sitting on the fence".
Both feet are firmly in the "staying camp"
That's where you are - that's the reality - and you own that.
The "leaving camp" is just an abstract concept that you may or may not explore further.
You haven't actually got a foot in that camp at this moment.
However, this is actually a good, if not great position to be in.
There is no ambiguity to it, and you know exactly where you are at this moment in time.
And that's terrific. If you know where you are, then you have excellent prospects of negotiating toward where you want to be, whereas if you do NOT know exactly where you are right now, you don't have much chance at all of finding your way forward.
And, the question actually gets simpler.
Without taking ownership and responsibility for your choice, the conundrum is "do I stay or do I go" and that tends to become an elliptical question that goes around and around in circles. It pre-supposes that you have 2 brand new options to consider, which isn't actually so. The "staying" option has already been taken. It is not a 'new' choice for you to consider, It's already your reality.
But under the model where you have taken ownership and responsibility for your pre-existing choice to stay, the question is "do I continue doing what I've been doing or not ?"
That, is a way simpler question, as it takes what you are already doing - staying - out of the picture as far as being a new option for you.
If you are in an ILIASM deal, then the reality is that you have stayed.
And if you have stayed, then staying further is not a "new" option.
It's your present reality which you might, or might not re-affirm as your chosen path.
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Post by workingonit on Aug 15, 2018 8:41:42 GMT -5
I agree baza and that is empowering in some ways to look at the fact that we are choosing to stay. However there is the inertia factor. Meaning we all chose to get married. That choice put us on a path. It is not always an active choice to keep on that path- sometimes it is passive, possibly even most of the time. For analogy I feel better when I do not eat sugar. I chose years ago to stop eating sugar. You can say that everytime I am presented with cake I actively make a choice not to eat it. But really I do not because I already made that choice and I don't see it as a choice anymore. I am not tempted, I don't think about how it would taste. It is literally not even a consideration- I just don't eat it. I would similarly argue that there is a big difference between firmly planted on the staying side of the fence and someone who is pretty continually peeking over the fence to the other side. Those that are not looking over the fence, either passively or actively, are not the same as those of glued to the eye holes we have drilled in the fence! For the sugar analogy it would be as if I were considering eating the sugar every time I was near it and had to choose not to all over agian. You could argue that I DO choose all over again but I would argue that my experience of it is different. Actively choosing to stay, passively not choosing, staying but suddenly realizing there is a choice and actively considering it. All different in my mind |
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Post by baza on Aug 15, 2018 10:58:50 GMT -5
I read somewhere, recently, that some researchers reckon that we make something like 17,000 choices every day. Obviously a heap of them we do on 'auto-pilot (like your sugar avoidance) I won't argue the toss with you on this one Sister workingonit - it's 1.46am in my jurisdiction and I am choosing to go to bed by 2am !! But clearly, there has to be a crossover period "between being a stayer" and "not being a stayer" any longer. And that would not, can not, and will not be done in one fell swoop. But I reckon that if you are presently in an ILIASM deal, you ARE a stayer. If you are pro-actively checking out "not being a stayer" then that is probably the crossover point. Around about there, you either re-affirm your position as a stayer, or start making your move to not being a stayer. Until then, I reckon you are a stayer. Peeking through the fence doesn't count, you're still that side of the fence. Climbing over the fence counts. Enjoyed reading the case you advanced. I'll think on it some more. PS - I am not suggesting there be a stampede to climb over the fence either. There could be perfectly good reasons to re-affirm the choice to stay. It is a perfectly legitimate choice. But you have to own it, same as those who choose 'not staying'. |
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 15, 2018 11:46:05 GMT -5
workingonit, I suppose it’s a spectrum, since nothing here is black or white, and everyone has different factors involved. Some points along that spectrum that I see: Committed, ‘come Hell or high water’; no alternatives to be considered. This is a lot like your sugar analogy, where you reached a conclusion long ago and there’s no re-evaluation; it’s not up for debate. Actively choosing to stay, but divorce isn’t an impossibility. There’s some regular re-assessment going on here. Perhaps with a fair bit of anxiety. Passively staying, perhaps because it isn’t “too bad to stay”. Unhappy, but not enough to consider divorce. I’d argue that all of these gradients (and more) have a common thread - a desire to stay. Which generally means needing to cope, and often wanting to improve things. Thus, this section.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 15:24:01 GMT -5
To expand just a little with the stay or stay dichotomy is that if we're no longer really working to "fix" our sexless marriage then we must recognize that an equilibrium has been reached. There are many days/weeks/months where the equilibrium of the relationship seems fine....I'm a stayer. What I find lately is that when something disrupts the equilibrium (currently wife and daughter-19 aren't getting along) then I find myself questioning everything. That is, as mentioned, exhausting. I need something in reserve but feel like i'm running on empty all the time.
That's the part that is broken. OK, cue baza....
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 16, 2018 18:30:34 GMT -5
Ya, @tooyoungtobeold2... the calm that’s punctuated with occasional bouts of “Where the hell is the ejection lever?!”
I find that having a place of refuge is helpful for that ‘reserve’. For me, it’s makerspaces / hackerspaces / co-working spaces - places where other folks are working on interesting projects.
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Post by baza on Aug 16, 2018 18:32:31 GMT -5
I figure that if you are in an ILIASM deal, that you are doing one of three things.
#1 - you are staying and accepting the situation and perhaps venting about it now and then to try and relieve some pressure.
#2 - you are staying and trying to change the situation from within.
#3 - you are staying and examining the theory of "not staying", casually, or perhaps seriously.
But you ARE staying. And that is a perfectly legitimate choice to make.
Now, some "stayers" who have been examining the theory of "not staying" seriously, perhaps to the extent that they start doing something about it - say by seeing a lawyer in their jurisdiction - start to change direction, but even at this stage they are still staying
The crossover point comes when the stayer has fully checked out the "not staying" option and so with that information AND the first hand information they know about the "staying" option they can make a fully informed choice.
It is at THIS point, it could be said that they have a foot in either camp.
Up to this point they've had both feet in the staying camp.
And, as often as not, their choice is to retreat back to the "staying" camp (a perfectly legitimate thing to do) as they are not ready for the turmoil "not staying" involves, short term.
What I am driving at here is that you are "staying" right up to the point where you aren't.
You haven't got a foot in both camps until such time as you have a viable alternative to staying, and a huge choice to make...and even then that doesn't mean you are going to "not stay".
Staying is the natural order of things in here.
That's what most people do.
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Post by sweetplumeria on Aug 26, 2018 11:55:59 GMT -5
Upon seeing the title of the thread " The stay or leave dichotomy", I had this thought: I think that "staying" itself is of two major flavors: - I'm staying, period. I'm going to get by somehow: change what I can in my spouse, change what I can in me to be happier. But I'm really permanently, unequivocally staying.
- I'm staying.... for now. Not sure if and when I'll pull the trigger... but I sure do think about it.
Note that both flavors have their upsides and downsides: - If you are definitely staying, well, you are now past the point of having to decide, so that is settled. Now you just have to learn to cope with your decision.
- If you are "staying for now", that means you are on the fence. Not only do you have to "cope for now", but you are continuously reevaluating your options, your plans. You are continually second guessing yourself. Wondering if a positive movement in your spouse is the start of a trend, fleeting, or even disingenuous.
Me: I'm in the second category. Frankly: it's exhausting. Well described! I was in #1 for a ling time. At some point I moved to #2. |
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Post by Caris on Aug 26, 2018 14:08:53 GMT -5
Dan, I vacillated between both groups. When the situation became unbearable, and my emotional and mental suffering could take no more, I was “definately” going to leave (at some future time). Other times, when I could deal with the torture (because that’s what it felt like to me) was bearable, I’d think to myself, I will stay. I have much to be thankful for, and also responsibilities and obligations here, so I’ll just make the best of it. It was a roller coaster that lasted 25-years. I don’t recommend it. It decimates you as a person.
I think personality has a lot to do with it. I’m a forgiving person, and even if he had hurt me terribly in the morning, I could be cheerful and friendly with him in the afternoon. I’m not able to hold grudges or ill will against people, so after some venting, crying, or whatever, I’m back to my amiable self, at least with those I love. As it turned out, I stayed until it was no longer my choice to stay, but even when I “chose” to stay, it was terribly painful, but I told myself, “I just have to accept the pain because this is how it is.”
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Post by saarinista on Aug 27, 2018 3:56:22 GMT -5
Ya, @tooyoungtobeold2 ... the calm that’s punctuated with occasional bouts of “Where the hell is the ejection lever?!” I find that having a place of refuge is helpful for that ‘reserve’. For me, it’s makerspaces / hackerspaces / co-working spaces - places where other folks are working on interesting projects. I guess I've gone too long without sex.i looked quickly at your post and briefly thought it said “Where the hell is the ejaculation lever?!” (as opposed to ejection) For my part, I THINK I remember where it is.....hahaha😭 |
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