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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2019 12:24:26 GMT -5
saarinista thanks for the reply and perspective. At nearly 50 myself, it's hard to know if my drive is dying because of age or because I've stifled it so long ... or both? I suppose time will tell. and Handy ... you're correct. I can also add that I have an 'outsource' partner that hits all the bells and whistles perfectly when we're together. Probably hands down the best sexual partner I've ever had. Definitely provides me with all the affection, etc., that my husband doesn't. That said, even that doesn't replace and fill the need I'm looking for because he is NOT my husband and that is the one I'm longing for a connection with. I adore this man but could never see myself pairing up with him in the future if things go sour in my SM and we part ways. It may sound strange, but that connection is truly something desired and is only truly fulfilled IMO when it's with the one person you want it from most.
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Post by Handy on Jan 4, 2019 1:04:47 GMT -5
Whynotm3 I can also add that I have an 'outsource' partner that hits all the bells and whistles perfectly when we're together. Probably hands down the best sexual partner I've ever had. Definitely provides me with all the affection, etc., that my husband doesn't. That said, even that doesn't replace and fill the need I'm looking for because he is NOT my husband and that is the one I'm longing for a connection with...
I understand the part where the outsource partner (OP) is not your H but never connecting with the OP you mentioned, that is a new one for me.
I suppose it is because you do have some form of emotional connection with your H, which is a bit different than for me or several other posters that have a somewhat or mostly overall negative relationship with their spouse.
For me the relationship I have with my W, It wouldn't take me very long to be drawn to a woman like your OP.
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Post by baza on Jan 4, 2019 18:49:06 GMT -5
The difficulty in a situation where you are nominally "working on the marriage" but also outsourcing, is that your resources are split between the two issues Sister @whynotm3 . "Fixes" are rare in the world of ILIASM. But where they have happened ( eg timeforliving2 ) the focus was 100% on the "working on it" and any outsourcing element was scrubbed. A recent example would be former Brother @shynjdude . Nominally he and his missus were "working on it" but unbeknown to shynjdude's missus, shynjdude was still in contact with a couple of prior outsourcing partners. These contacts were no longer sexual (as I understand it) but when Mrs shynjdude found out about them she was highly unimpressed. She saw it as a major breach of trust, and that he was not 100% committed to "working on it". It is a bloody difficult balancing act to try and be 100% "working on it" if you are also trying to keep a pretty significant fact a secret from the person you are "working on it" with. The two things - "working on it" - and - "outsourcing" seem mutually exclusive to each other. You have one, or the other...or maybe "none of the above".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2019 20:31:49 GMT -5
The difficulty in a situation where you are nominally "working on the marriage" but also outsourcing, is that your resources are split between the two issues Sister @whynotm3 . "Fixes" are rare in the world of ILIASM. But where they have happened ( eg timeforliving2 ) the focus was 100% on the "working on it" and any outsourcing element was scrubbed. A recent example would be former Brother @shynjdude . Nominally he and his missus were "working on it" but unbeknown to shynjdude's missus, shynjdude was still in contact with a couple of prior outsourcing partners. These contacts were no longer sexual (as I understand it) but when Mrs shynjdude found out about them she was highly unimpressed. She saw it as a major breach of trust, and that he was not 100% committed to "working on it". It is a bloody difficult balancing act to try and be 100% "working on it" if you are also trying to keep a pretty significant fact a secret from the person you are "working on it" with. The two things - "working on it" - and - "outsourcing" seem mutually exclusive to each other. You have one, or the other...or maybe "none of the above". Agree ... and understood baza. My outsourcing has dramatically decreased and is quite rare these days for the very reason you mentioned. I am trying to focus 100% and have no distractions. When the wiggy and desperate desire take over every few months, there may be a fix needed to quell the urgency of a permanent fix at home. As I said, it's dwindling down to next to nothing. I suspect rather soon, nothing will be what it is. Thank you for your advice. :*)
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Post by carl on Jan 4, 2019 23:05:29 GMT -5
The difficulty in a situation where you are nominally "working on the marriage" but also outsourcing, is that your resources are split between the two issues Sister @whynotm3 . "Fixes" are rare in the world of ILIASM. But where they have happened ( eg timeforliving2 ) the focus was 100% on the "working on it" and any outsourcing element was scrubbed. A recent example would be former Brother @shynjdude . Nominally he and his missus were "working on it" but unbeknown to shynjdude's missus, shynjdude was still in contact with a couple of prior outsourcing partners. These contacts were no longer sexual (as I understand it) but when Mrs shynjdude found out about them she was highly unimpressed. She saw it as a major breach of trust, and that he was not 100% committed to "working on it". It is a bloody difficult balancing act to try and be 100% "working on it" if you are also trying to keep a pretty significant fact a secret from the person you are "working on it" with. The two things - "working on it" - and - "outsourcing" seem mutually exclusive to each other. You have one, or the other...or maybe "none of the above". Agree ... and understood baza. My outsourcing has dramatically decreased and is quite rare these days for the very reason you mentioned. I am trying to focus 100% and have no distractions. When the wiggy and desperate desire take over every few months, there may be a fix needed to quell the urgency of a permanent fix at home. As I said, it's dwindling down to next to nothing. I suspect rather soon, nothing will be what it is. Thank you for your advice. :*) I don’t know whether or not outsourcing causes problems in an established sexless marriage. There is a little niggling thought that won’t leave me alone and says that those admirable people who would never outsource might be the essential ingredient that a refuser needs in order to refuse. Like wise someone who would never separate may be equally rewarding to a refuser. Working on it might not work where there are no consequences at all.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jan 6, 2019 22:29:27 GMT -5
Agree ... and understood baza . My outsourcing has dramatically decreased and is quite rare these days for the very reason you mentioned. I am trying to focus 100% and have no distractions. When the wiggy and desperate desire take over every few months, there may be a fix needed to quell the urgency of a permanent fix at home. As I said, it's dwindling down to next to nothing. I suspect rather soon, nothing will be what it is. Thank you for your advice. :*) I don’t know whether or not outsourcing causes problems in an established sexless marriage. There is a little niggling thought that won’t leave me alone and says that those admirable people who would never outsource might be the essential ingredient that a refuser needs in order to refuse. Like wise someone who would never separate may be equally rewarding to a refuser. Working on it might not work where there are no consequences at all. Excellent points Carl (and thanks for looping me in baza). In order to "turn around" my marriage a little over 5 years ago... I did things to shake up the marriage. "Rocking the boat" is definitely what people need to do if they want any shot of turning thing around with a refuser IMHO. I told my refuser that I would no longer kiss her or hug her anymore until we went to marriage counseling. Previously, that was all she needed to feel "loved enough" by me. Then, once we were in counseling, I held nothing back in terms of talking with the counselor, separately or with the three of us in a group (and I was civil even if I raised my voice). I told the counselor separately that I wanted to try to resolve the SM issues within a reasonable time, but if we couldn't resolve things within a reasonable time, then I was *equally willing* to accept that result too (I was ready to walk). I just couldn't live that way anymore. This message separately got back to my W / refuser I am sure before we started the group counseling sessions. Once I was open about divorce being an option then my refuser started to change her tune. Some refusers can change, and it is definitely a low odds chance of changing them, but for me I had to genuinely feel like I gave it an honest shot at saving the marriage. I will also admit that our sex life currently is not 5-star awesome, and my W is not in the best shape (I make more effort than she does), but my W is also preoccupied with trying to get to the bottom of some serious health issues for one of our kids (it's been going on for years). It drains probably 20+ hours a week of her time on average (no joke). Given that situation, I am accepting of the fact that our sex life is "OK" for now... I hold out hope that when the health issues are resolved (things are trending better) and our oldest is off to college soon, that our sex life will improve a bit too. I accept that our sex life will never be 5-star awesome (for lack of a better term). I can remember what it was like being in a SM for so long, so I count my blessings that the sex life is "OK" for now vs. nonexistant.
TL2
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Post by carl on Jan 10, 2019 20:55:51 GMT -5
Well sometimes I figure that something is better than nothing. That ok sex would do. But perhaps that is the crux of in that sex when it happens is never ok by virtue of its very nature. It’s got to be at least fairly good or it’s not really sex. I mean it light heartedly but I mean imagine watching a game of football and hoping for a draw.
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Post by saarinista on Jan 20, 2019 23:34:53 GMT -5
Handy yes, the online thing is not satisfying. but I feel genuine love for this person. he on the other hand seems totally satisfied with erotica and, as I call it, "fiber optic mutual self satisfaction." Who knows. Maybe he's a Russian agent. that would be my luck! I don't know. I've never experienced anything like this but it feels real, even though it doesn't feel great. As for age, once you hit 35 or so, I think you always have to" think" yourself into a state of desire. Some people just don't wanna do the work for whatever reason. Others of us realize that sucks for fills a need and provides a connection that nothing else can provide. Woe unto us if we are married to sexual slackers, or, as in my case, married people with whom we were never actually that compatible in the first place but couldn't be honest with ourselves in the beginning. 😕
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Post by Handy on Jan 21, 2019 4:38:31 GMT -5
Like I said in my other post about holiday meals, I have to get out to talk with real people sitting close to me. It doesn't go into anything sexual, although I do talk about relationship issues in general and how some people's troubles complicate things.
Saarinista, you liking or feeling genuine love for this Internet friend, I can sort of understand. Maybe it is similar to when someone feels the mysterious "chemistry" towards or with someone else. It can be one sided or mutual. I was reading a forum of women regarding dating and some women saying a guy was great, almost perfect on paper but they didn't feel any chemistry for the guy and they wanted to feel butterflies but it didn't happen in x number of dates so she calls off the relationship. Other women said they knew their XH would be a good dad to the kids and a good provider but she really didn't have that "chemistry connection" she really wanted.
I read so many other stories about men and women loving the wrong type of potential mate for a long term relationship but was some how enamored by this person, so much so that they couldn't give up that person.
I am not sure what you mean by reaching 35 and have to "think yourself into a state of desire." For me my desire level might be higher or lower than potential partner, but like so many people here on ILIASM, holding down the desire is the problem my struggle. Well it was until the desire turned in to severe disappointments, depression so now I know to not act on desires, it just lead to more disappointments. I think that is called or leads up to counter refusal if it get carried out to an extreme.
Yes I may be partially wrong but I see compatibility such a huge requirement for living in a long term functional relationship.
I am also seeing myself think "if only I had or if only she did______, I would be happier. Well, 5 years ago I thought the bare minimum would be enough to solve the relationship issues most of us face. Now I think the things that trouble each of our members relationships are more complicated than the primary presenting issue we commonly talk about.
As far as this guy you communicate with being a Russian Agent, most likely he is just someone that likes attention, what ever his style is, and with you he is getting it without it costing him more than he can afford or wants to pay and even that is speculation on my part.
I know there are givers and takers in this world. I have one book "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders" that describes different people's involvement regarding personal relationships and I have some of each type I interact with on a regular basis. I try to look at relationships from both sides and figure out in advance hat is fair for both sides. Maybe I over think things or maybe I an too serious.
What is this about? When things get really bad, remember to keep breathing. The "really bad" part has me a little concerned. For me really bad means I won't sleep well and maybe stay up until 4AM or later. I see it is 2:35 AM now so maybe I need to go to bed.
I hope some things improve for you in the near future.
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Post by saarinista on Feb 1, 2019 0:39:41 GMT -5
Like I said in my other post about holiday meals, I have to get out to talk with real people sitting close to me. It doesn't go into anything sexual, although I do talk about relationship issues in general and how some people's troubles complicate things. Saarinista, you liking or feeling genuine love for this Internet friend, I can sort of understand. Maybe it is similar to when someone feels the mysterious "chemistry" towards or with someone else. It can be one sided or mutual. I was reading a forum of women regarding dating and some women saying a guy was great, almost perfect on paper but they didn't feel any chemistry for the guy and they wanted to feel butterflies but it didn't happen in x number of dates so she calls off the relationship. Other women said they knew their XH would be a good dad to the kids and a good provider but she really didn't have that "chemistry connection" she really wanted. I read so many other stories about men and women loving the wrong type of potential mate for a long term relationship but was some how enamored by this person, so much so that they couldn't give up that person. I am not sure what you mean by reaching 35 and have to "think yourself into a state of desire." For me my desire level might be higher or lower than potential partner, but like so many people here on ILIASM, holding down the desire is the problem my struggle. Well it was until the desire turned in to severe disappointments, depression so now I know to not act on desires, it just lead to more disappointments. I think that is called or leads up to counter refusal if it get carried out to an extreme. Yes I may be partially wrong but I see compatibility such a huge requirement for living in a long term functional relationship. I am also seeing myself think "if only I had or if only she did______, I would be happier. Well, 5 years ago I thought the bare minimum would be enough to solve the relationship issues most of us face. Now I think the things that trouble each of our members relationships are more complicated than the primary presenting issue we commonly talk about. As far as this guy you communicate with being a Russian Agent, most likely he is just someone that likes attention, what ever his style is, and with you he is getting it without it costing him more than he can afford or wants to pay and even that is speculation on my part. I know there are givers and takers in this world. I have one book "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders" that describes different people's involvement regarding personal relationships and I have some of each type I interact with on a regular basis. I try to look at relationships from both sides and figure out in advance hat is fair for both sides. Maybe I over think things or maybe I an too serious. What is this about? When things get really bad, remember to keep breathing. The "really bad" part has me a little concerned. For me really bad means I won't sleep well and maybe stay up until 4AM or later. I see it is 2:35 AM now so maybe I need to go to bed. I hope some things improve for you in the near future. just a quick response so you don't worry handy. I haven't been on the boards much for several weeks but that really has more to do with just not really knowing what to say because I'm so stymied, and also because I've been on Twitter a lot and there are only so many hours in the day . There's no big crisis or anything. The "Remember to keep breathing" reference in my tagline refers to yoga and meditative techniques involving breath work. I tend to have anxiety (gee, I wonder why?) and so I try to remember when I feel anxious, to just go back to my breathng and focus on that. If I can do a little yoga along with breath work, as they call it, that's great. If I can't, just closing my eyes and breathing slowly and deeply for a few minutes can help alleviate anxiety. Anyway I just didn't want you to worry. And also, for you or anyone else afflicted with anxiety, I highly recommend yoga, whi h I'm getting back into. Almost anyone can do it; it's not that expensive, and it's widely available and effective.
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Post by Handy on Feb 1, 2019 5:47:41 GMT -5
Saarinista, our instructor (2x a week) talks about breathing but I sometimes do the opposite or get out of synchronization with the inhale-exhale suggestions she gives. Some positions and moves are easy, some are a bit more difficult and the difficult ones is where breathing is secondary to doing the move. I am more into flexibility and maintaining stamina. Some days not passing gas is goal. Maybe I am not doing my yoga the correct way? I will say I do the best that I can and I don't miss many sessions. One day the clock was acting up and only moved forward 1 min every 10 min. I was seriously worried about my stamina that day. Fortunately half way through the class I realized the clock was messed up. OK it wasn't me getting old and decrepit. I dodged the bullet on that one. Anxiety? I know how to deal with that, just exercise so hard/vigorously that you get really tired, then have a 3/4 diet, 1/4 regular Coke. Stymied / stuck, yea that happens. One part of the brain wants to do something different and another part of the brain thinks how it might affect others. For me it typically happens when the choices are choosing between some choices that have some major negative outcomes.
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Post by saarinista on Feb 6, 2019 23:44:20 GMT -5
Handy, you might benefit from a personalized class or two with a yoga instructor to work on the finer points of synchronizing your breathing with the physical parts of yoga. The room where I attend my class has horrible Acoustics and lots of echoing which makes it really hard to hear what the instructor says about breathing. and though she's good for a free class instructor, sometimes she doesn't say too much about breathing. I always feel like the physical parts of yoga are more important than the breathing parts. if I'm right, maybe that's why I instructors don't say as much about the brats part. Let's just give ourselves a pat on the back for going to yoga at all. I see a lot of people in my class who are much younger than I am who have already really gone to seed. Meanwhile, at age 58 I can still do a headstand,though I will say it's not as easy as it used to be, but still..... I'm extremely flexible. What a pity my flex isn't being utilized for sex! 😭😭😭
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Post by Handy on Feb 7, 2019 0:41:55 GMT -5
Our yoga instructor is usually good with giving breating instructions and I follow them most of the time but sometimes it feels like she is putting out the wrong in or out. Some moves are easy and I follow the instructions 100%. The more difficult (more physical exertion) that is where if I did the breathing as instructed, sometimes I might start feeling as if I might pass out or gasp for air.
Head stands are not even tried in our class. Half of the people have had some form of joint damage, joint repair or replacement. A few people are very heavy and do radically modified moves.
I look at the physical strength part (holding a pose for a longish time and volcano fast moves that require lots of energy) as the best benefit. I also know the flexibility is a plus and important. I add some extra wiggles to some moves just to hopefully be more flexible.
Talking about sexuality and yoga, there are 3 moves we do that I want to rename and give each one a sexual term. But I can imagine not everyone would would think it was humorous. I am one to stick to simple terms so everyone knows what is happening if the situation was sexual.
There is something like a dollar store next to the gym and OH MY GOSH, some people are so out of shape that go into that store, that I wish I could get them inside the gym. I know it would be perceived as being rude so I know not to say anything. I feel like I am doing a little bit of good by taking W2 to the gym with me. She chickens out on occasion but she goes with me most of the time. If I don't go it is for a serious reason. Me providing a ride to her makes me go more often.She is also good company.
The good part is we have a few people that have to use a cane that come to the gym and they do what they can. I say WTG.
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Post by dannyc on Mar 20, 2019 17:21:31 GMT -5
First thanks for creating a safe place for those of us who decide to stay. Many years of experience on SM web discussion groups has shown me that many SM people look down upon and ridicule those who decide to stay. I am in a pretty good marriage except for the lack of sex and I would be in MUCH worse shape if I left. I didn't marry until I was in my late 30's so I had 20 years of living on my own and I was much more unhappy then than I am now even though in those days sex partners were plentiful and easy to find.
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firefollower
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Post by firefollower on Mar 27, 2019 12:08:18 GMT -5
Well sometimes I figure that something is better than nothing. That ok sex would do. But perhaps that is the crux of in that sex when it happens is never ok by virtue of its very nature. It’s got to be at least fairly good or it’s not really sex. I mean it light heartedly but I mean imagine watching a game of football and hoping for a draw. Carl, I like your football analogy...my experience has taught me that "sexual intimacy" in marriage is a zero sum game. One persons loss is another' gain.
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