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Post by solodriver on Jul 10, 2018 1:45:04 GMT -5
Hi Cats,
BTW, I have 3 cats that do love me and are with me providing me comfort when I sleep.
I'm a little late for this, but I just did the very same thing yesterday with my refuser wife. And I did follow the Baza rules of not saying anything that I was not willing to back up at the moment. Here is what happened to me and how the talk went.
Well today, my wife and I had a talk. This talk was the final talk I'm having with her regarding our marriage relationship.
I laid it all out about the rejection, the 18 years of sexless marriage, the 5 years of no affection , kisses, hugs or "I love you" either spoken or in cards I've received from her. I strongly suggested couples' counseling, which she rejected and then I suggested that we work with a book that I found positive for couples in crisis such as ourselves. We could work on a chapter a week until we completed all the exercises. She said she was not ready for that yet. She said she needed baby steps to be taken to work on this and that we could set aside Sunday afternoons to discuss our weekly action plans.
Update: Today is Sunday and no discussion has taken place. So at this point I'm leaving it up to her on that portion of the plan. If she forgets or chooses to ignore it, I will not be bugging her about it. That will tell me EXACTLY where she stands with it.
Some not so hopeful things came out of the discussion this afternoon. When I suggested that at some point maybe we could be more comfortable with me sleeping with her in the bedroom again, she said No to that. Another thing that makes the outcome not very hopeful was when I asked if she still loved me. She said "I don't know". I told her that I still did love her, because if I didn't, we wouldn't be having this conservation and that I would have already packed and left. The last thing that was not helping me feel very hopeful was at the end of the conservation I asked if we could hug, something we haven't done once in the past 5 years. She said "Sure". When I reached around to her hug her, she left her arms down by her side. She might as well said No or punched me in the stomach as to what she actually did.
We didn't have any more discussions the remainder of the evening except for her telling me dinner was ready.
My time line is now set. If there is very little or no progress towards reestablishing a relationship by January 7, 2019, we will be having "The Talk".(separation/divorce) If there is progress, but not significant progress by July 7, 2019, that is the final date I will stay in this marriage and we will be having "The Talk" on that day.
I picked these dates so I can do as Baza suggests and seek legal advice, housing arrangements, time to get my job stabilized and financial affairs in better shape. But after what happened tonight, I will no longer attempt or hope to engage in any sort of intimacy with her. If she wants intimacy, she will have to initiate it. Again, if nothing happens in the next 6 to 12 months, that's it. But I'm not getting my hopes up at all. I fully expect nothing will happen. That way if she does choose to engage, it will be a surprise for me, but if it doesn't I will not feel any worse than I already do. I know, it might be "reset" sex. Only time will tell. But no matter what, the clock continues to tick. 6-12 months is all that is left to recover this relationship. I'm not waiting for an undisclosed amount of time while she tries to figure out what she wants. She knows exactly what I want and need. I don't know if she will ever be capable of making me happy again, but she has to at least put forth some significant effort. And anytime between the next 6-12 months we reach an impasse on working on this, I'm done. I'm unwilling to continue to stay in this marriage. Tomorrow starts the clock to see what she can do to help recover this marriage. I'm willing to work if she is.
I struggle with the thought I will let my wife down if I decide we are not going anywhere and I leave. But I have passion, desires and needs that I want to share with someone for the remainder of my life and I know someone out there would love and appreciate me and be able to share their wants, needs, passion and desires with me as well. That thought is what drives me to get out of bed every day and go forward.
And if I meet her tomorrow, and the spark is ignited, I will enjoy giving and receiving what I'm so desperately needing, which might push my timeline sooner.
After 18 years, I'm ready to lose my virginity again.
That's how my talk went and where I'm at with my refuser.
So much of this is familiar to me. Did you tell your wife about your timeline? No I did not. The reason is because I don't want her to change because she is under threat. That would not be genuine. If she really doesn't care anymore, time will soon tell. So far since the talk, zero effort from her.
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 10, 2018 2:16:21 GMT -5
I am reminded of Yoda in Star Wars, scolding the young Luke Skywalker. "No. Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try."
Many times, our refusers will appear to put in a good faith effort when they know they are under scrutiny, but, it does not last. If you tell your spouse what the minimum standard is, they may feel comfortable enough doing the minimum, or meet the deadline, with no lasting change.
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Post by solodriver on Jul 10, 2018 2:22:36 GMT -5
I am reminded of Yoda in Star Wars, scolding the young Luke Skywalker. "No. Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try." Many times, our refusers will appear to put in a good faith effort when they know they are under scrutiny, but, it does not last. If you tell your spouse what the minimum standard is, they may feel comfortable enough doing the minimum, or meet the deadline, with no lasting change. Amen Yoda
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Post by baza on Jul 10, 2018 2:29:28 GMT -5
In reality, the setting of a deadline is NOT to hold the spouse accountable, but rather to hold YOURSELF accountable to act when your deadline expires.
What your spouse does (or doesn't) is not under your control at all.
What YOU do (or don't) IS entirely under your control.
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 10, 2018 8:36:12 GMT -5
In reality, the setting of a deadline is NOT to hold the spouse accountable, but rather to hold YOURSELF accountable to act when your deadline expires. What your spouse does (or doesn't) is not under your control at all. What YOU do (or don't) IS entirely under your control. baza, I completely agree with this point. Part of what I’m struggling with right now is the question of how much longer do I wait? If my husband was an abusiive a-hole or was completely dismissive of my needs and feelings my decision would be made for me. In the past we have both had poor follow-through in our effort to address this (and other issues). I’m hesitant to set a timeline for the same reason that solodriver is. The change needs to be genuine and not born from the threat of my leaving. But your valid point remains—I need to hold myself accountable.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 10, 2018 8:42:32 GMT -5
In reality, the setting of a deadline is NOT to hold the spouse accountable, but rather to hold YOURSELF accountable to act when your deadline expires. What your spouse does (or doesn't) is not under your control at all. What YOU do (or don't) IS entirely under your control. baza, I completely agree with this point. Part of what I’m struggling with right now is the question of how much longer do I wait? If my husband was an abusiive a-hole or was completely dismissive of my needs and feelings my decision would be made for me. In the past we have both had poor follow-through in our effort to address this (and other issues). I’m hesitant to set a timeline for the same reason that solodriver is. The change needs to be genuine and not born from the threat of my leaving. But your valid point remains—I need to hold myself accountable. I also grappled with the question of “how long do I wait?” It’s different for everyone. For me, it ended up being one year. He started therapy end of June 2017 and there was zero changes to ANYthing until June 2018 when we jointly decided to call it quits. Though my H never said this, I wonder if he was exhausted too, from not being able to be what he knew I needed. I think he was giving it an attempt in therapy but I’ll never really know. Deciding to split let us BOTH off the hook.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 10, 2018 8:43:48 GMT -5
In reality, the setting of a deadline is NOT to hold the spouse accountable, but rather to hold YOURSELF accountable to act when your deadline expires. What your spouse does (or doesn't) is not under your control at all. What YOU do (or don't) IS entirely under your control. baza, I completely agree with this point. Part of what I’m struggling with right now is the question of how much longer do I wait? If my husband was an abusiive a-hole or was completely dismissive of my needs and feelings my decision would be made for me. In the past we have both had poor follow-through in our effort to address this (and other issues). I’m hesitant to set a timeline for the same reason that solodriver is. The change needs to be genuine and not born from the threat of my leaving. But your valid point remains—I need to hold myself accountable. If you're waiting for him to change without pressure you may find yourself waiting for quite some time. The sad truth is that he may never want you in the way you need him to. As baza says though, you can only control your own actions. But take care to make a decision and be at peace with it.
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 207
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 10, 2018 8:46:53 GMT -5
Wishing the best for you catsloveme ! It sounds like you guys had a good discussion and I hope you'll be able to make progress together. Like you and okiedude , my spouse was also a victim of childhood sexual abuse. It has played a major part in his life and in the formation of his self. Unfortunately, even after intensive therapy, there has been no change and I decided I cannot do this any longer. I am glad for the separation at the moment because I know I have done all I could do and I now have hope for a better future. I too I'm not sure if you two are kidding yourselves or not but if the stories we see here on this forum are any indication, you may come to realize in your quest for clarity, that things are worse in your marriage than you are, at this point, admitting to yourselves. I hope for your sakes that is not the case though! This thread (especially the helpful post from ballofconfusion --about 4 posts down) might be of interest to you: iliasm.org/thread/4274/spouses-therapyEDIT: Also this one maybe: iliasm.org/thread/3879/setting-benchmarks-therapyThank you, choosinghappy, for sharing these two threads. There is a lot to digest and I think I will need to read through them a few times.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 10, 2018 8:48:48 GMT -5
“Some not so hopeful things came out of the discussion this afternoon. When I suggested that at some point maybe we could be more comfortable with me sleeping with her in the bedroom again, she said No to that. Another thing that makes the outcome not very hopeful was when I asked if she still loved me. She said "I don't know". I told her that I still did love her, because if I didn't, we wouldn't be having this conservation and that I would have already packed and left. The last thing that was not helping me feel very hopeful was at the end of the conservation I asked if we could hug, something we haven't done once in the past 5 years. She said "Sure". When I reached around to her hug her, she left her arms down by her side. She might as well said No or punched me in the stomach as to what she actually did.
We didn't have any more discussions the remainder of the evening except for her telling me dinner was ready. “
You just as well cut to the chase by seeing a lawyer and divorcing your wife. Her every response indicated she doesn’t love you and will not be intimate in any way with you. She appears to want out but doesn’t want to be perceived as the bad guy by filing. Choosing to wait several months in hopes she changes will be just wasting more of your one precious life.
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 207
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 10, 2018 9:00:31 GMT -5
baza, I completely agree with this point. Part of what I’m struggling with right now is the question of how much longer do I wait? If my husband was an abusiive a-hole or was completely dismissive of my needs and feelings my decision would be made for me. In the past we have both had poor follow-through in our effort to address this (and other issues). I’m hesitant to set a timeline for the same reason that solodriver is. The change needs to be genuine and not born from the threat of my leaving. But your valid point remains—I need to hold myself accountable. I also grappled with the question of “how long do I wait?” It’s different for everyone. For me, it ended up being one year. He started therapy end of June 2017 and there was zero changes to ANYthing until June 2018 when we jointly decided to call it quits. Though my H never said this, I wonder if he was exhausted too, from not being able to be what he knew I needed. I think he was giving it an attempt in therapy but I’ll never really know. Deciding to split let us BOTH off the hook. It’s amazing how time flies. I’ve waited a long time for things to change. The first year was a blur of confusion—blending families and settling into life together. The next four years were full of anger and pain. And then I spent a good seven years eating and drinking to dull the pain, ignoring the elephant in the room, and mired in depression and anxiety. About three years ago I realized that I was slowly killing myself—physically, emotionally. And I started doing a lot of work on myself. Sorting my shit, as baza would say. I can’t change my husband. I can only change me. The clock started ticking on Sunday when we had the conversation. I’m not sure how long the timer will run before it dings “done”. I’m comfortable with that as long as I see meaningful effort and progress. I have some more thinking to do on that.
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 207
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 10, 2018 9:11:45 GMT -5
baza, I completely agree with this point. Part of what I’m struggling with right now is the question of how much longer do I wait? If my husband was an abusiive a-hole or was completely dismissive of my needs and feelings my decision would be made for me. In the past we have both had poor follow-through in our effort to address this (and other issues). I’m hesitant to set a timeline for the same reason that solodriver is. The change needs to be genuine and not born from the threat of my leaving. But your valid point remains—I need to hold myself accountable. If you're waiting for him to change without pressure you may find yourself waiting for quite some time. The sad truth is that he may never want you in the way you need him to. As baza says though, you can only control your own actions. But take care to make a decision and be at peace with it. Agreed, shamwow. I guess I am exerting some pressure in that I’ve said I am unhappy and need things to change. I was very clear that I am no longer going to be forced into celibacy. My tacit message was that this is “do or die” time. We fix this or our marriage takes a different shape. All signs (at this early stage) point to him understanding exactly how serious I am about this. I didn’t issue any ultimatums, but I was clear that there are consequences. solodriver, something just occurred to me... when you talked with your wife were you clear with her that there were/are consequences for her action/inaction?
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 10, 2018 9:21:03 GMT -5
okiedude, you said, “I am wondering now if catsloveme and I have a chance. “ I would like to think that my marriage has a chance because we once had a good level of intimacy and an active sex life that we were both comfortable with. Getting married changed that. Was it a bait and switch? I don’t know. I honestly don’t know if we will recover from all these years of hurt. But as long as we are communicating and putting in an effort, I will have hope.
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 10, 2018 11:24:27 GMT -5
Agreed, shamwow. I guess I am exerting some pressure in that I’ve said I am unhappy and need things to change. I was very clear that I am no longer going to be forced into celibacy. My tacit message was that this is “do or die” time. We fix this or our marriage takes a different shape. All signs (at this early stage) point to him understanding exactly how serious I am about this. I didn’t issue any ultimatums, but I was clear that there are consequences. It sounds like you went down a good path. I agree that ultimatums are not the answer here because they encourage behavior that meets the minimum threshold, and then only long enough to pass the milestone. However, I do think that it needs to be clear that there are consequences; that this is a dealbreaker. Not just a vague “there will be consequences”, but a more concrete “our marriage is on the line if this isn’t resolved”. Not directly threatening divorce, per se, but being very clear about the severity of the problem.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 10, 2018 12:11:03 GMT -5
Agreed, shamwow. I guess I am exerting some pressure in that I’ve said I am unhappy and need things to change. I was very clear that I am no longer going to be forced into celibacy. My tacit message was that this is “do or die” time. We fix this or our marriage takes a different shape. All signs (at this early stage) point to him understanding exactly how serious I am about this. I didn’t issue any ultimatums, but I was clear that there are consequences. It sounds like you went down a good path. I agree that ultimatums are not the answer here because they encourage behavior that meets the minimum threshold, and then only long enough to pass the milestone. However, I do think that it needs to be clear that there are consequences; that this is a dealbreaker. Not just a vague “there will be consequences”, but a more concrete “our marriage is on the line if this isn’t resolved”. Not directly threatening divorce, per se, but being very clear about the severity of the problem. I used the statement "I can't see us growing old together this way" when I had the "Mother of all Talks" with my ex. She didn't change a thing (celibate for another 2 years in fact), but it was my way of telling her that things had to change or it ends (without using the "D") word. In retrospect I wish I'd found my voice much earlier.
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Post by solodriver on Jul 10, 2018 20:29:34 GMT -5
If you're waiting for him to change without pressure you may find yourself waiting for quite some time. The sad truth is that he may never want you in the way you need him to. As baza says though, you can only control your own actions. But take care to make a decision and be at peace with it. Agreed, shamwow . I guess I am exerting some pressure in that I’ve said I am unhappy and need things to change. I was very clear that I am no longer going to be forced into celibacy. My tacit message was that this is “do or die” time. We fix this or our marriage takes a different shape. All signs (at this early stage) point to him understanding exactly how serious I am about this. I didn’t issue any ultimatums, but I was clear that there are consequences. solodriver , something just occurred to me... when you talked with your wife were you clear with her that there were/are consequences for her action/inaction? What I told her was we aren't going to live like this another year, that she is unhappy and I'm VERY unhappy and we need to hit the RESET button NOW. If not we will need to revisit this again. I just didn't want to put a threat of divorce out there so she would feel pressured. There should be NO PRESSURE if you love someone. If she won't/can't change her attitude and feelings, then she shouldn't be surprised when I have "The Talk" with her
Will see what happens but I'm not holding out any hope. Nothing so far has changed.
I'm keeping the image of a loving, fun and sexually fulfilling relationship in the forefront of my mind every day.
It has happened for many people in this group and there is no reason it can't with me. I'm healthy, horny and ready to enjoy living instead of just existing.
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