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Post by greatcoastal on May 30, 2018 20:31:09 GMT -5
I am starting to think that the definition of what constitutes "friendship" is wildly different between different people. In my cozy little word, there's Ms enna, then there are about 5 people I regard as true friends. I could add on another 10 that I am very close to. I could add on a further 20 that I know pretty well. Probably another 20 who I know. On the next orbit of people we are into *acquaintance* territory, no idea how many people that would be According to farcebook, I have 27 friends - most of whom I rarely see IRL - and a few of the remainder I could not care much if I never heard from them again. According to ILIASM I have another 18 friends on here. There's 8 of them that I've not seen active for at least a year, mebbe 2. Anyway, I have managed to veer off topic a bit here - but I do think that everyones version of what constitutes a "friend" is different. Such an interesting question! I’m asking my kids what they think makes a friend as we eat a leisurely breakfast on a terrace. (Love teacher strikes!) So far we’ve got: 1. Understanding you. 2. They let you be yourself and respect your opinions even when they differ from theirs. 3. Being there for each other. I think the monkeys have a good basis, but I’d add someone who truly cares about your well being and vice versa. Cool convo with the kids - talking about friendships, what makes a good friend, how we can grow closer or apart from friends based on what is important to you and the friend, that it can be fluid. Then about self-esteem and the different things we can base esteem on. Some people on possessions, bigger house, better car. Some on physical appearance. Some people on intelligence, learning or education. Others on skills that they have. And others on the qualities they possess and how they choose to act. Thanks for inspiring such a cool talk with my kids! Love getting their perspective and exploring this stuff with them! And baz- the few folks in your inner circle - they are very, very lucky to have you as a friend. You’re a good egg (to use my odd New York slang). There is no other phrase that captures it so well. I hope it translates across culture. 😊 In keeping with the theme of the thread, it would be interesting to ask your children, " do you think me and daddy are good friends?, Do you think daddy treats me like a friend, Do I treat daddy like a friend? So far what your kids expect from friends is not happening in your own marriage. So.... what message does that send to them about what a marriage is! (voice of experience) I would expect you might get some programmed answers, "Yea, you're friends". and that's about it. Put on your psychology hat and figure out, what does that tell me? That they don't have much to say about it, because they really don't see much and don't like the rest of what they see, and don't have a voice in it. Now that my divorce is final, my kids are teens , we have seperate households, these conversations are happening more and more. Hopefully towards healing for my teens and me. My ex? Not so much. Not her approach. She's going to end up a lonely person living with her aging father and her job. (but I digress about the ex) Again ,voice of my own experiences. My sister and I had a talk last night about our childhood. I felt validated to hear her say " back then that's the way things where, you didn't question mom's authority on anything, no matter how blatantly wrong she was (mom was bipolar and wouldn't take her meds.) My sister went on to say' "I always tried to make everyone happy, that lead to denial of moms words and actions. That plagues my whole personality to this day, being a peacemaker". A side note: Do you know why my sister now has these kind of conversations with me? Because I have learned so, so ,so much about the subject and the great experience of actually talking it out on here daily.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 20:42:45 GMT -5
In keeping with the theme of the thread, it would be interesting to ask your children, " do you think me and daddy are good friends?, Do you think daddy treats me like a friend, Do I treat daddy like a friend? This sounds like a spectacularly bad idea. Be the role model to your kids on how relationships should be, even if only one of you is living up to it. Don't use them like this, don't involve them in this, they should in no way shape or form be seen as a tool to prove a point about your marriage. They need unconditional love, and should never be in a position where they are asked to evaluate your relationship, even if you pretend you are "joking."
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Post by WindSister on May 30, 2018 20:45:14 GMT -5
I was reading another thread about getting along with your refuser spouse and feeling like friends instead of lovers. It got me thinking: If you had never married your spouse do you think you two would still be friends? Nope. And we aren't. I haven't talked to him in over a year and likely never will again. Not because of hatred, but we don't have kids and we are very different people. We are also both in happy relationships. Left the past in the past. Eyes forward.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 30, 2018 21:16:23 GMT -5
I understand your point of view, however I don't agree with it. (yes it is a bad idea when taken out of context and you ignore the rest of my post) Mostly due to the countless other conversations that have been posted on here (during my three years) about the good of communicating and giving the kids more of a voice as they get older. (much of it has been posted under the topic of parenting)
What is spectacularly bad is using children, involving children, to prove a point, score points against another spouse . That's NOT AT ALL WHAT I SUGGESTED AND IT'S NOT A JOKE. (and if you think it ends with the divorce? it increases, when your dealing with a narcissist like elynne@ is)
Kids don't need just unconditional love "that's a fantasy land" they also need boundaries and an open relationship with a parent to communicate with when they have been victims of HAP (Hostile Aggressive Parenting) and PAS (Parental Alienation Syndrome)
Talking these thing out with your children is exactly what a child psychologist will do and recommends. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that the kids don't know or see any of the parents problems in how they relate to each other is a spectacularly bad idea.
I don't think you have ever stated how old your children are?, how many? and how you handle all the damage that a failed marriage does to them.
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Post by tirefire on May 30, 2018 21:25:11 GMT -5
Yeaaahhh... I’m cool calling AAA. 😜 Yeah, but you are strong and independent and that _is_ sexy.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 21:27:08 GMT -5
greatcoastal2 kids, grown, married to wonderful people. I'm not going to badmouth my wife but respect for parents is a huge part of their upbringing, and I have been amazed a number of times they have handled dealing with my wife when they were teens, even when they were being screamed at they learned to maintain their composure and make their points respectfully without backing down, eventually succeeding in calming her down and having an adult conversation with her. Better than me. But knowing I was there was certainly a big help. I couldn't be prouder.
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Post by baza on May 30, 2018 21:30:28 GMT -5
Like @shynjdude , I don't think canvassing your kids opinion about the relationship between you and your missus is such a red hot idea Brother greatcoastal. It runs the risk of the kid(s) feeling that they need to "take sides". I think that scenario is to be avoided. If it comes up in conversation (at their instigation) that's a different thing, and well worth listening to whatever unsolicited observations they might make. The relationship you had with your missus collapsed. That's between you and her, nothing to do with the kids. Just as each of the kids had (and has) a relationship with their mother - which has nothing to do with you. Just as each of the kids has a relationship with you - which has nothing to do with their mother. You - obviously - didn't think much of your ex missus as a person - and you quite legitimately voted with your feet. Your kids may share your view - or might not. That's their call to make. From all you have written about your dynamic, you seem to have been an involved caring loving parent. All you can do is keep that standard up, a lot like Sister tamara68 in her situation. Keep your door open and the welcome mat out for them. They - individually - will choose whether to step through that door. (it reads like several of them HAVE already stepped through that door, so you've got to have been doing something right !!)
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Post by greatcoastal on May 30, 2018 21:54:26 GMT -5
greatcoastal 2 kids, grown, married to wonderful people. I'm not going to badmouth my wife but respect for parents is a huge part of their upbringing, and I have been amazed a number of times they have handled dealing with my wife when they were teens, even when they were being screamed at they learned to maintain their composure and make their points respectfully without backing down, eventually succeeding in calming her down and having an adult conversation with her. Better than me. But knowing I was there was certainly a big help. I couldn't be prouder. I'm proud of my children too when they keep their composure and respectfully succeed in having an open dialogue with me. That rarely happens with their mother. Instead their conversation gets reversed and avoided, and mom gets her way, sometimes immediately and other times it happens eventually. Bad Mouthing another spouse is all about how you approach the truth and the realization that bringing these truths to the forefront is a very helpful tool in the process of moving forward, and for children, teens and now adult children to learn from mistakes and bad examples. One example I have shared before is my ex's projecting to my teens " your father gets mad a lot". Those projections make strong impressions that deserve to be discussed. A correct time and place to openly ask your kids, "when did this happen? Did I do this to you? What did I do? Remember when this happened and I was angry?Wouldn't that make you angry for a little while too? What about this week when you were angry about______? How would you feel if I then told you for days "you are an angry person, you get mad a lot?" I will let elynne@ speak for herself, if she believes there is a lot of damage to be worked on with regards to the behaviors her daughters have adopted from their marriage, and what friendship means in a marriage.
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Post by northstarmom on May 30, 2018 22:16:27 GMT -5
I agree with what shyndude said. Don’t put your kids in the position of having to evaluate your marriage.
“Be the role model to your kids on how relationships should be, even if only one of you is living up to it. Don't use them like this, don't involve them in this, they should in no way shape or form be seen as a tool to prove a point about your marriage. They need unconditional love, and should never be in a position where they are asked to evaluate your relationship...”
I also do not agree with doing what great coastal suggested here: “One example I have shared before is my ex's projecting to my teens " your father gets mad a lot". Those projections make strong impressions that deserve to be discussed. A correct time and place to openly ask your kids, "when did this happen? Did I do this to you? What did I do? Remember when this happened and I was angry?Wouldn't that make you angry for a little while too? What about this week when you were angry about______? How would you feel if I then told you for days "you are an angry person, you get mad a lot?"
It is wrong to make the kids take sides like this. It would be better to demonstrate constructive ways of dealing with anger.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 30, 2018 22:22:22 GMT -5
Like @shynjdude , I don't think canvassing your kids opinion about the relationship between you and your missus is such a red hot idea Brother greatcoastal . It runs the risk of the kid(s) feeling that they need to "take sides". I think that scenario is to be avoided. The relationship you had with your missus collapsed. That's between you and her, nothing to do with the kids. From all you have written about your dynamic, you seem to have been an involved caring loving parent. All you can do is keep that standard up, a lot like Sister tamara68 in her situation. Keep your door open and the welcome mat out for them. My thoughts where, for elynne ,that her kids won't be bubbling with enthusiasm and non stop examples, of how much they want to be just like mom and dad. Also the fear that you can see in a child's programmed answers. Then act accordingly. (It's meant to canvass how this relationship has affected them) ( I learned a lot about that dealing with my adopted children. they physically and mentally had many fears instilled in them during their years of torture in the orphanages of China) Much of it remained deeply hidden and needed an open dialogue to overcome this fears and problems. ." Taking sides" may have already taken place (due to a manipulative parent) and needs undoing, not avoided even more. "Nothing to do with the kids". Sadly not true. A manipulator is a pro at using kids against you, slyly, and goes undetected for years. Not all kids are sugar and spice, and can be a strong portion of the break down in a marriage. They grow up and are influenced by things that are out of your control. (That's for a different thread) Thank you for your strong words of support!! The mat is out for them along with boundaries (all part of a relationship) That mat includes a more open honest dialogue with my three younger teens. Being able to share my mistakes and say "please learn from it, don't tolerate it to keep the peace like i did." That's something elynne@ kids have to deal with. .
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Post by greatcoastal on May 30, 2018 22:46:56 GMT -5
I agree with what shyndude said. Don’t put your kids in the position of having to evaluate your marriage. Northstarmom I will start my words with a word you start with many times. NO. You are wrong. These kids are already in a position of evaluating the marriage daily, they are living it . Parents can be fooled to believe that the kids don't suspect anything is wrong, but three years of reading articles, posts, and threads on here give a much higher percentage of stories where kids, teens, adults , say "what took you so long ? we wanted you to get divorced. You two were terrible for each other", or "we saw it years ago and where afraid to say anything" also " we wish you would have talked about it with us, you made it worse by making it accept it as normal". look it up, it's their It's meant for insight for elynne@. As things continue down this destructive path (weather divorce happens or not) There is a lot of correcting to be done in these kids minds. Do you think her H is going to step up and take care of that? 1) Does dad understand mom.? 2)Does dad let mom be herself and respect her opinions even when they differ from his? 3) Is dad there for mom? These are all three of the things these kids believe make a friendship. Shouldn't they be believing that a marriage is all that and more?
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Post by greatcoastal on May 30, 2018 22:53:59 GMT -5
I also do not agree with doing what great coastal suggested here: “One example I have shared before is my ex's projecting to my teens " your father gets mad a lot". Those projections make strong impressions that deserve to be discussed. A correct time and place to openly ask your kids, "when did this happen? Did I do this to you? What did I do? Remember when this happened and I was angry?Wouldn't that make you angry for a little while too? What about this week when you were angry about______? How would you feel if I then told you for days "you are an angry person, you get mad a lot?" It is wrong to make the kids take sides like this. It would be better to demonstrate constructive ways of dealing with anger. You are wrong in claiming that this is making kids take sides. What's happening is I am teaching my teens to not fall victim to their mothers projection tactics, and to not take on her behaviors when they interact with their friends, and family. I also go on with the conversation and remind them how I demonstrated constructive ways of dealing with and overcoming my anger, and offered solutions and cooperation from everyone and for others to show responsibility for their lack of action, only to have it railroaded by my spouse ,and totally dismissed with her projections of "your father gets angry. and then take it a step too far and literally shield them! Somethings need to be un-learned during the remainder of these few formidable years, because of my love for them, not a selfish attitude of "you need to take my side" I don't understand why you can't understand that.
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Post by northstarmom on May 30, 2018 23:04:28 GMT -5
GC, you are asking the kids to justify your anger. Basically you want your kids to agree that it’s normal for their mom’s behavior to make you angry. That is asking them to take sides.
What could be more helpful would be helping your kids recognize the appropriateness ofvthrir own anger if someone mistreats them. Anger is not a good or bad emotion nor is anger reflective of one’s being a good or bad person. It can be an important signal that one is being mistreated. One can be angry without being abusive or out of control.
Were you angry all of the time? If so how did the anger manifest itself?
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Post by greatcoastal on May 30, 2018 23:47:41 GMT -5
GC, you are asking the kids to justify your anger. Basically you want your kids to agree that it’s normal for their mom’s behavior to make you angry. That is asking them to take sides. What could be more helpful would be helping your kids recognize the appropriateness ofvthrir own anger if someone mistreats them. Anger is not a good or bad emotion nor is anger reflectivecofvone’s being a good or bad person. It can be an important signal that one is being mistreated. One can be angry without being abusive or out of control. Were you angry all of the time? If so how did the anger manifest itself? I don't believe that finally having a voice ,and giving "the other side' of what happened or occured is not justifying anger, instead it's going over the entire event, beginning, middle and ending. Not brainwashing the teens with "dad gets mad a lot". Instead it's a discussion about how dad believes enforcing consequences for established boundaries. For example, Dad tells junior " you need to finish your pees or you won't get dessert". Junior doesn't finish his peas, and doesn't get dessert. The next day junior wants dessert and hasn't finished his peas. This time mom decides "your not going to change him", and gives him her dessert. Mom then goes on to tell junior " your dad gets mad a lot". In our family most of my children have unlearned the coercion that "dad gets mad a lot" and are seeing that mom mistreated dad and his attempt to set boundaries in raising children. I've had to explain to my now almost adult children, "your mother put those thoughts in your head, not my actions or words". something my psychologist taught me about her manipulation. My teens are also awaken to the fact that mom gets angry far more than dad, only no one goes around projecting, " mom gets angry a lot". "Anger is not a good or bad emotion nor is anger reflective of one's being a good or bad person." I'll pm you an example. I don't want to get way off from what kind of examples of friendship we give and receive from our spouse.
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Post by fearless on Jun 1, 2018 15:34:57 GMT -5
Yes, I think we could be friends, although not based on the last two years. He's an interesting person- very smart and kind of nerdy. He's normally very upbeat and energetic, so we can have a lot of fun together. And I like that he has a somewhat weird sense of humor.
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