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Post by WindSister on May 1, 2018 20:19:22 GMT -5
(Disclaimer, this is not related to the cleaning topic on the abuse thread. I read that after I posted this)
On the SM Issues forum there's a lot of talk around therapy, marriage counseling. I'm just not seeing a real use for marriage counseling; has a marriage ever been improved from it, or was it more of an eye opener of why the marriage should be dissolved? I'm not really asking as that's not the point of my post.
The point of my post is you can't make someone do something. You can't really "train" another human being. All you need to do is know yourself, and speak up honestly and directly about wants/needs and then....sit back.... watch. Your partner's ACTIONS are what matter.
Example:
I'm a freak about needing the kitchen clean before I go to bed. I don't even need help doing it, because in some weird way, I like it. It's satisfying to me cleaning it, making it sparkly to wake up to in the morning. It's meditative almost.
Anyway, when I first moved in with my now husband, this was not important to him. It didn't even register to him why I did it and he barely noticed (he had his own night time routines so he wasn't staring at me all night, not that he's not observant). Well, because it wasn't important to him, he would think nothing of getting a little snack or something and then leave a slight mess. Not a horrible one, he's not piggy at all, but enough to kinda irk me after I worked hard to make it clean and sparkly.
I sat in frustration with it for a little bit, but then I remembered it's better to be honest.
So, I told him directly that I knew he didn't do it intentionally, but leaving in a mess in the kitchen after I cleaned it was bothering me. I told him I'm not usually anal about things. But waking up to a clean kitchen makes me feel better about the work day ahead.
Then I braced myself for criticism (past SM tactics). But, he didn't criticize!!! He felt horrible that he didn't notice he left a mess after I cleaned. He also completely understood why I liked to do it. He even said maybe that's part of why he didn't dread mornings anymore.
Ever since Then? He completely cleans up too so we have a clean kitchen before bed. He also hugs me and thanks me A LOT for caring about our home so much.
And what have I done? I don't freak out if things aren't all tidy on the weekends. Or it's missed "now and then" because I know he cares based on his gratitude, respect and love. Also, weekends are about us.
I know it may seem silly. But it's just a little snippet of how things in a healthy relationship can work.
We respect each other.
We care about the things the other cares about, and if we don't, we learn to. If that makes sense?
Life is easier. Our home feels full of love. I know the opposite of this. That's why I'll never take it for granted.
xo
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Post by WindSister on May 1, 2018 20:48:49 GMT -5
P.S. maybe this doesn't even matter. Maybe those in an SM do have these little give/takes. I don't know, I was just thinking about it. We also have sex, though, so there's that. 😘
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Post by baza on May 1, 2018 21:11:55 GMT -5
Sister elkclan2 recounted a similar thing fairly recently Sister WindSister . There, it was leaving things on the open oven door. It would seem that after thinking about it for quite a while, how she would broach the subject, how she would argue her case and all, she took a deep breath one night and said something like - "would you mind not putting stuff on the open oven door, as I have experienced broken oven doors resulting from this practice" - and braced for a possible explosion (based on her old ILIASM shithole experience) He said - "OK honey" and hasn't done it since. Further, he then suggested that Sister elkclan2 need not force the toaster off by forcing the handle, but could use the "eject" button. I gather from the tenor of our sisters story she thanked him for this information and has used that since.. I think then that they may have reired for the evening and certain depraved acts may have then ensued. |
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Post by WindSister on May 1, 2018 21:32:50 GMT -5
Sister elkclan2 recounted a similar thing fairly recently Sister WindSister . There, it was leaving things on the open oven door. It would seem that after thinking about it for quite a while, how she would broach the subject, how she would argue her case and all, she took a deep breath one night and said something like - "would you mind not putting stuff on the open oven door, as I have experienced broken oven doors resulting from this practice" - and braced for a possible explosion (based on her old ILIASM shithole experience) He said - "OK honey" and hasn't done it since. Further, he then suggested that Sister elkclan2 need not force the toaster off by forcing the handle, but could use the "eject" button. I gather from the tenor of our sisters story she thanked him for this information and has used that since.. I think then that they may have reired for the evening and certain depraved acts may have then ensued. Ah yes. I remember that thread now that you mention it. Sorry, my Dory Mind forgets. 😄 I was just thinking about it when it comes to therapy and those hoping a spouse will change. Do they ever? Not usually. Can they? If they want. They rarely want to. |
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Post by GeekGoddess on May 1, 2018 21:54:09 GMT -5
I feel like if therapy was going to help, it would be suggested & tried before finding our forum. But that’s just a guess.
Although individual therapy for “why do I stay” was, in fact, helpful for me.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 1, 2018 22:29:22 GMT -5
I once posted a thread about the kitchen, and how much kitchen duties and expectations reflect so many other aspects of a marriage and how a family gets along and communicates. (it didn't get much steam/go very far)
I do struggle with the theory of "you can't train another human being", or you can't change someone. It certainly seems like many people on here where "changed" by their spouse. (like a puppet on a string, people can be easily influenced, and led astray like sheep) The same people who where open to change and bent over backwards to relate, communicate, compromise, give, and sacrifice for the good of the marriage and to please their spouse.
You kind of challenged your own theory when you described your (very good and thoughtful) story about your husbands cleaning standards.
I do remember offering a marriage retreat to my now ex wife. Focus on the Family has a week long marriage recovery program, where the boast a 86% success rate. I have my doubts. The follow up is 2 years? after the program. They claim to help those marriages that are already getting divorced.
My point is that my then W. rejected the idea of us going on one of these retreats to our psychologist, by blaming me, with a lame alibi " greatcoastal doesn't pray enough and he won't learn to". I replied, "that's it? that's your only reason you think I need counselling? that's all I need improving on? and you won't go? My prayer life is very personal and a one on one relationship. Not something I flaunt in front of others.
She totally blew off the facts about our SM and her "I don't see the need for it" attitude.
She wanted to drop the whole thing , it was more about money ,control, and her lack of empathy and submissiveness being exposed. Definitely a lack of respect.
So, I like your examples of change, respect, trust,compromise, meeting each others needs, and communication. It gives me hope that their are others having relationships like that and I can offer that to someone (including my teens) who values it and applies it to their daily interactions with others.
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Post by baza on May 1, 2018 22:52:32 GMT -5
(Disclaimer, this is not related to the cleaning topic on the abuse thread. I read that after I posted this) On the SM Issues forum there's a lot of talk around therapy, marriage counseling. I'm just not seeing a real use for marriage counseling; has a marriage ever been improved from it, or was it more of an eye opener of why the marriage should be dissolved? I'm not really asking as that's not the point of my post. If things have deteriorated enough to get you googling sexless marriage, then things have reached a desperate stage. People do not google 'sexless marriage' at the first sign of trouble. Usually, they try scented candles strategies, why chasing strategies, counselling strategies and anything else they can think of. And, when these strategies have failed, then, as a last resort, they google sexless marriage, and sometimes stumble in to this group. Then they usually recount a tale of a dysfunctional situation that has been running for at least 5 years and is deeply entrenched as being normal. Usually, newbies take a position that 'everything is great bar the sex' despite the narrative of their own words. Most, after their initial post, are never heard of again. I think though, at this point where things have gotten to the last gasp, it would be a great idea for the respective spouses to float the idea of joint counselling to - together - dig for the truth of their situation. And here's the first hurdle. If one of the spouses will not do it, then forget it. It is useless, no matter how good the counsellor might be. It's dead duck. Likewise if one of the spouses just "attends" but won't do their share of the digging. Dead duck. Likewise if one of the spouses is nuts, an addict or otherwise unstable. Dead duck. That leaves individual counselling for the spouse who wants to resolve the matter, again with the brief of digging down to the truth. Given that the spouse will not attend, or will not do their share of the digging, you pretty much have your answer about the future of the marriage already. But you can still derive a whole lot of benefit, figuring out why you stay in the situation, and how you might work your way through the swamp and out the other side. No matter what happens in your marriage, gaining insights into your own values and boundaries and metrics is a highly worthwhile undertaking. It may not be particularly useful in regard to your foundering marriage, but it will be invaluable to you in the conduct of your life generally and any relationship that might emerge in your future. |
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Post by bballgirl on May 2, 2018 4:57:54 GMT -5
In the last 5 years of my marriage, I asked my husband after we had a fight of some sort if he thinks we should go to marriage counseling - he said NO, I didn't push it by the last time I asked I really didn't want to go either I was done. So then I tell him that I'm getting an attorney, that I'm going to divorce him, and now he wants to go to marriage counseling. I didn't want to, he begged me to go "please don't be stubborn like me". So I went to one session, at the end the counselor told my husband he better get a lawyer.
We were divorced three months later.
I really don't believe in marriage counseling once you are past the ten year mark of marriage. Marriage counseling can possibly nip something in the bud but usually people don't change. My exH still has a gambling problem but it's not my problem and doesn't effect my bank account. People don't change they like what they like or they don't. Me - I like sex!
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Post by WindSister on May 2, 2018 6:35:21 GMT -5
To keep things real, there are things I accept about him (and definitely vice versa!) that he does that I don't "love" but that I also know he won't change. It's having a "soft gaze" for one another, seeing the flaws or quirks but not focused on them. They aren't things that could destroy our relationship, though. But, if we ended up sexless, it would be those things we'd have the microscope on, I bet!
No one's perfect, but once you get your own wants/needs sorted out, and you learn to stand up for yourself when it matters and learn to directly communicate, it can be easier (relationships, that is).
Mutual respect goes a long, long way, though. I think, anyway.
Still amazed everyday how this love makes me a better person.
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Post by nyartgal on May 2, 2018 20:04:20 GMT -5
Hahaha I have SO MANY example like this from my dysfunctional ex and my highly function husband that this made me laugh out loud! It's amazing the contortions we put ourselves through to please people who are incapable of being pleased.
Re: marriage counseling, we went to two. The first guy was very good but he didn't talk abou sex, and to be honest sex was a symptom and not the cause of our troubles. But I also felt frustrated because my ex would suddenly come out with these revelations on cue in front of the therapist about stuff he would never previously admit. I felt like it was manipulative.
The 2nd was a so-called sex therapist, and everything about that was a disaster.
So my feeling is, if you go to counseling at the FIRST SIGNS of real problems it could help. But if your marriage has been fucked up for years and years, and (likely) you're married to someone who won't lift a finger to fix the problems, don't bother. Once it's dead, no therapist can bring it back.
Talk is cheap! Actions are all that matter.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 2, 2018 20:14:44 GMT -5
I would like to add that a good therapist can diagnose that your marriage is DOA.
I remember it well" Their is not even a dying ember left here, there is nothing left." also, "you two have set a horrible example for your children of what a loving, caring relationship aught to be."
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littlelamb
Junior Member
I don't know.
Posts: 56 
Age Range: 26-30
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Post by littlelamb on May 2, 2018 20:32:17 GMT -5
hmmm. My H would never ever help with kitchen duties...even when he didn't work he wouldn't....
I get miffed and will procrastinate on cleaning things when I don't feel loved because I'll feel disrespected...
sometimes I'll just go days with out cleaning like a strike or protest.......
I've learned he doesn't seem to care about it or mind the mess and I usually just end up with even dirtier kitchen....
which I always give in and clean at some point because I won't be able to look at the mess anymore >.>
just bleh
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