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Post by Dan on Mar 11, 2018 12:20:49 GMT -5
Preface: I don't think there is much here regarding advice for dealing with an SM. However, some members -- possibly women starting to date post-SM -- might find the concepts interesting to reflect on.In my wanderings through the forests of relationship advice on the Internet, I've come across a site and newsletter called "The Feminine Woman", authored by Renee Wade and occasional contributions by her husband, D. Shen. ( Link to recent articles.) I immediately assumed I would hate it, so I started reading it to figure out how stupid it was. Several articles later, I realize that it was not as stupid as I assumed it would be. In fact, it just might have a nugget that is useful to some women who are single and dating. (And/or: I'm honestly interested to get some input about the site from female members.) I actually subscribed to the site's newsletter (signing up as "Danielle"... my clever Internet disguise to pass as a woman) just to monitor the advice from this site. And almost every email as reinforced my original assessment: it is not as stupid as I assumed it would be, and it just might have a few nuggets at least for some women. The site is oriented toward how to "get a man". But here is what the site is NOT: its sense of "feminine" is NOT about your physical look, or about being "sexy" in the Cosmopolitan magazine sense. It is NOT about being "girly" like "wear ribbons and bows and decorate your house with pastels and flowers and potpourri." It is NOT about: playing dumb or playing weak. Its advice is more about self-esteem and curating your "feminine energy". It defines "feminine energy" as a curious mix of "don't take crap from your man" and yet "it is OK to be an emotional being, and even a bit vulnerable... as guys generally like to 'fix' and 'protect'". (The one thing to NOT do is "be clingy" with your man... Wade's advice is that that type of vulnerability is not attractive.) In Ms Wade's lingo, she advises women to view themselves as "high value" and "high status". From the site: Also: I see this advice is not that different from WindSister 's current footer: " Those who feel lovable, who love, and who experience belonging simply believe they are worthy of love and belonging. - Brene Brown", just tuned a bit toward women, specifically. I never really saw direct utility of the site for women in SMs here, until just recently when two separate discussion I was in I felt the women were questioning their possible post-SM "attractiveness" or "marketability". My analysis: I really can't tell if this advice is awful... or reasonable! - (Awful:) Is it the female version of "how to catch a man" like the male-oriented (and manipulative) "pickup artist" sites?... - (Reasonable:) Or is it actually some good, basic advice on self esteem? - (Awful:) Is just pandering to the stereotype then men want to feel more manly because they need to "protect their vulnerable woman"? ... - (Reasonable:) Or are its tips about "how men think" based on some reasonable general psychology? Frankly.... I'm leaning "reasonable" in both cases. I'm actually VERY interested in thoughts about this advice and that site from the women here, because they are intelligent, well spoken, and have been around the block on relationships... and relationship in distress.
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Post by bballgirl on Mar 11, 2018 15:36:48 GMT -5
I agree with the "high value" philosophy.
People need to love themselves and value themselves. Know what you bring to the table and not settle for less the important things that you are looking for in a relationship.
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Post by WindSister on Mar 11, 2018 17:35:16 GMT -5
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Post by baza on Mar 11, 2018 18:13:40 GMT -5
I just spent an hour reading around in that linked site.
Two things stood out for me -
#1 - that much of it had to do with recognising the traits of dud blokes
#2 - not a word about how you might try and "fix" dud blokes either, rather to avoid them, or if you've been ensnared, to get away from them.
I thought there was some pretty good stuff there, based on what I read.
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Post by WindSister on Mar 11, 2018 20:56:03 GMT -5
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Post by surfergirl on Mar 15, 2018 8:12:55 GMT -5
Here's the short version of my feedback on this. I can go one of two ways.
1. Yes, I've seen women expect a man to text her 20 times a day. The constant blah, blah, blah-ing would drive ME insane as a female. So I get why men pull away. Even if it isn't borderline compulsive or unhealthy, pretty much every female I see/know expects a lot of daily contact. I can't take it as a female, so I can't imagine how this must feel to a man. I get and understand why they need to "recover". And I don't think it's always because men are emotional immature or unavailable. I do think men who are dealing with anxious women need space to recover without being wrong.
So, in these cases and if you are THAT woman, this is a wonderful site for you with sage, important advice. Also, in general, this is good for the typical female.
However, I want to punch someone's face if I get one more fucking email on "how to catch him and keep him". To be fair, if you are wondering "should I text him back? how long should I wait?", they are right that you are asking the WRONG questions. Not that I'm kind of expert, but after talking with dozens and dozens of men over these last few months on the HUNT for an affair partner, all I can say is that the emotional awareness in the majority of men is severely lacking. In general, there is a lack of self-awareness, ZERO ability to apologize.....I had a list but let me stop on that one right there. I can't tell you how many men have showed up late --most -- and NONE have apologized. Yesterday, I had one guy hassling me that I was "too good to be true" and that my pics were fake. I stopped the car. Hit the video button on kik, and said, "Hey." No apologies. He said, "OH SHIT. I guess this is over," I said it'd be okay but he should probably apologize for accusing me of trying to scam him (etc., etc.) -- I had given him some pointers on how to check out my story, how to tell that I was real, trying to be understanding and see things from his point of view. When he doubled down, I excused myself and that's when he started calling me "crazy" and "ballistic".....
Back to the point. Perhaps these emails should focus more on "don't TRY to catch and keep a douchebag". You see, connection is easy to build with people who are self-aware and willing to own their mistakes. All these emails do is reinforce that there is something wrong with ME, something I would've caught onto long ago if I wasn't mis-wired from my childhood and consequently my SM. I'm actually a FUCKING AWESOME CATCH. A little baggage, yes, but I own it and don't project it onto others.
Anyway, that's my quick feedback. I think the material on the site would be a fun round-table discussion. Dan, I love that about you--how you can see things from multiple angles.
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Post by surfergirl on Mar 15, 2018 8:32:54 GMT -5
Edit to add to my above comment.....
There are articles on there on avoiding these guys. So let me amend my comments. They can't say EVERYTHING in every article, so with the exception of one or two pieces on the site that might have benefitted from a caveat, I do think it's a good site.
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Post by WindSister on Mar 15, 2018 20:21:56 GMT -5
Here's the short version of my feedback on this. I can go one of two ways. 1. Yes, I've seen women expect a man to text her 20 times a day. The constant blah, blah, blah-ing would drive ME insane as a female. So I get why men pull away. Even if it isn't borderline compulsive or unhealthy, pretty much every female I see/know expects a lot of daily contact. I can't take it as a female, so I can't imagine how this must feel to a man. I get and understand why they need to "recover". And I don't think it's always because men are emotional immature or unavailable. I do think men who are dealing with anxious women need space to recover without being wrong. So, in these cases and if you are THAT woman, this is a wonderful site for you with sage, important advice. Also, in general, this is good for the typical female. I guess I didn't quite see the connection like that as you did, but we all have varying perspectives. I liked some articles, but not all. I am not that woman, though. My H and I do have daily contact and have since we first met. Even now, living together old married couple, lol, it's a quick heart eyes at noon or right before driving home or with exciting news or sad news. I never expect it though or text a "where are you". It's organic. Unforced. I'm sure you weren't talking about that kind of situation, though. Because, yeah, NEEDING constant reassurance in that clingy way would leave one feeling suffocated and the other insecure. That's not a healthy relationship. I agree that steps to catch a man are bogus. But there was some good stuff on the site. The article I didn't click with was the one saying you are damaged if you participate in causal sex. I was not and am not damaged because I had a couple casual-sex-filled years. Quite the opposite, actually!  |
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Post by WindSister on Mar 15, 2018 20:24:14 GMT -5
Edit to add to my above comment..... There are articles on there on avoiding these guys. So let me amend my comments. They can't say EVERYTHING in every article, so with the exception of one or two pieces on the site that might have benefitted from a caveat, I do think it's a good site. I felt as strongly against the casual sex article. lol. |
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Post by elynne on Mar 16, 2018 5:56:33 GMT -5
Here's the short version of my feedback on this. I can go one of two ways. 1. Yes, I've seen women expect a man to text her 20 times a day. The constant blah, blah, blah-ing would drive ME insane as a female. So I get why men pull away. Even if it isn't borderline compulsive or unhealthy, pretty much every female I see/know expects a lot of daily contact. I can't take it as a female, so I can't imagine how this must feel to a man. I get and understand why they need to "recover". And I don't think it's always because men are emotional immature or unavailable. I do think men who are dealing with anxious women need space to recover without being wrong. So, in these cases and if you are THAT woman, this is a wonderful site for you with sage, important advice. Also, in general, this is good for the typical female. However, I want to punch someone's face if I get one more fucking email on "how to catch him and keep him". To be fair, if you are wondering "should I text him back? how long should I wait?", they are right that you are asking the WRONG questions. Not that I'm kind of expert, but after talking with dozens and dozens of men over these last few months on the HUNT for an affair partner, all I can say is that the emotional awareness in the majority of men is severely lacking. In general, there is a lack of self-awareness, ZERO ability to apologize.....I had a list but let me stop on that one right there. I can't tell you how many men have showed up late --most -- and NONE have apologized. Yesterday, I had one guy hassling me that I was "too good to be true" and that my pics were fake. I stopped the car. Hit the video button on kik, and said, "Hey." No apologies. He said, "OH SHIT. I guess this is over," I said it'd be okay but he should probably apologize for accusing me of trying to scam him (etc., etc.) -- I had given him some pointers on how to check out my story, how to tell that I was real, trying to be understanding and see things from his point of view. When he doubled down, I excused myself and that's when he started calling me "crazy" and "ballistic"..... Back to the point. Perhaps these emails should focus more on "don't TRY to catch and keep a douchebag". You see, connection is easy to build with people who are self-aware and willing to own their mistakes. All these emails do is reinforce that there is something wrong with ME, something I would've caught onto long ago if I wasn't mis-wired from my childhood and consequently my SM. I'm actually a FUCKING AWESOME CATCH. A little baggage, yes, but I own it and don't project it onto others. Anyway, that's my quick feedback. I think the material on the site would be a fun round-table discussion. Dan, I love that about you--how you can see things from multiple angles. Personally, if or when I get out of my ILIASM, I have NO desire to catch a man! They’re not fish! I’d much rather be alone. If or when I’m ready for another relationship, I would hope it’s because I’ve found someone who really sees me, not who he thinks I am or who he wants me to be. Someone who really likes me as I am right now and doesn’t want me to change for him. Someone who I inspire, who inspires me. Someone who can be bring his true self to the table, so I can really know him. Love and accept him for who he is. Someone to learn and grow with. Someone who can give me encouragement and support when I need it and can ask for it from me when he needs it. I want a true partner in life, a relationship where we inspire each other to evolve into the best versions of ourselves. I’m not willing to settle for anything less. And I’m happy to be single until I find it. And if I don’t find it, that’s ok. I’ll continue working on being the best version of myself. Maturing, growing, enjoying life. If that leads me to a fulfilling relationship in the future, fantastic. If not, I’ll still be evolving into a happier healthier person and living a life that brings me joy. Fuck fishing! |
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 16, 2018 7:41:16 GMT -5
Here's the short version of my feedback on this. I can go one of two ways. 1. Yes, I've seen women expect a man to text her 20 times a day. The constant blah, blah, blah-ing would drive ME insane as a female. So I get why men pull away. Even if it isn't borderline compulsive or unhealthy, pretty much every female I see/know expects a lot of daily contact. I can't take it as a female, so I can't imagine how this must feel to a man. I get and understand why they need to "recover". And I don't think it's always because men are emotional immature or unavailable. I do think men who are dealing with anxious women need space to recover without being wrong. So, in these cases and if you are THAT woman, this is a wonderful site for you with sage, important advice. Also, in general, this is good for the typical female. However, I want to punch someone's face if I get one more fucking email on "how to catch him and keep him". To be fair, if you are wondering "should I text him back? how long should I wait?", they are right that you are asking the WRONG questions. Not that I'm kind of expert, but after talking with dozens and dozens of men over these last few months on the HUNT for an affair partner, all I can say is that the emotional awareness in the majority of men is severely lacking. In general, there is a lack of self-awareness, ZERO ability to apologize.....I had a list but let me stop on that one right there. I can't tell you how many men have showed up late --most -- and NONE have apologized. Yesterday, I had one guy hassling me that I was "too good to be true" and that my pics were fake. I stopped the car. Hit the video button on kik, and said, "Hey." No apologies. He said, "OH SHIT. I guess this is over," I said it'd be okay but he should probably apologize for accusing me of trying to scam him (etc., etc.) -- I had given him some pointers on how to check out my story, how to tell that I was real, trying to be understanding and see things from his point of view. When he doubled down, I excused myself and that's when he started calling me "crazy" and "ballistic"..... Back to the point. Perhaps these emails should focus more on "don't TRY to catch and keep a douchebag". You see, connection is easy to build with people who are self-aware and willing to own their mistakes. All these emails do is reinforce that there is something wrong with ME, something I would've caught onto long ago if I wasn't mis-wired from my childhood and consequently my SM. I'm actually a FUCKING AWESOME CATCH. A little baggage, yes, but I own it and don't project it onto others. Anyway, that's my quick feedback. I think the material on the site would be a fun round-table discussion. Dan, I love that about you--how you can see things from multiple angles. Personally, if or when I get out of my ILIASM, I have NO desire to catch a man! They’re not fish! I’d much rather be alone. If or when I’m ready for another relationship, I would hope it’s because I’ve found someone who really sees me, not who he thinks I am or who he wants me to be. Someone who really likes me as I am right now and doesn’t want me to change for him. Someone who I inspire, who inspires me. Someone who can be bring his true self to the table, so I can really know him. Love and accept him for who he is. Someone to learn and grow with. Someone who can give me encouragement and support when I need it and can ask for it from me when he needs it. I want a true partner in life, a relationship where we inspire each other to evolve into the best versions of ourselves. I’m not willing to settle for anything less. And I’m happy to be single until I find it. And if I don’t find it, that’s ok. I’ll continue working on being the best version of myself. Maturing, growing, enjoying life. If that leads me to a fulfilling relationship in the future, fantastic. If not, I’ll still be evolving into a happier healthier person and living a life that brings me joy. Fuck fishing! Friend, I love your answer!! You are growing, maturing, learning, and changing!! You are open to it and that is a great thing! Your response reminds me of a night at my Divorce recovery class. We had a lesson about STD's! The lady instructing our class got up there and in the middle of the lesson stated " I ain't never going to be with NO man ever again!" I happened to be in a room with 11 other woman. They where ALL saying "AMEN!". I thought, "that is so sad. That is so wrong!. Do not stereotype all men/woman because of your one spouse!. You are depriving yourself of so much, don't do that to yourself. You are playing right back into your spouses hand!" Meanwhile I get it. I too am going to be way aver cautious when entering another relationship. And yet I am still going to take the risk, be myself, and be vulnerable. After I have time to grieve and heal some more. NOW time will be more my friend, without being under the thumb of my controlling, spouse. Friend ,look back at your statement. "I have NO desire to catch a man!" Then you go on to say " someone, someone, someone!" HMM.... sounds like you desire to have a relationship with a man? And you should! And you did! (only he was a taker), It's right, correct, and natural to want that again. Only this time you will achieve an equal amount of giving and receiving. truth, respect, intimacy, sex, and joy. Keep leaning forward! |
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Post by elynne on Mar 16, 2018 7:57:33 GMT -5
Personally, if or when I get out of my ILIASM, I have NO desire to catch a man! They’re not fish! I’d much rather be alone. If or when I’m ready for another relationship, I would hope it’s because I’ve found someone who really sees me, not who he thinks I am or who he wants me to be. Someone who really likes me as I am right now and doesn’t want me to change for him. Someone who I inspire, who inspires me. Someone who can be bring his true self to the table, so I can really know him. Love and accept him for who he is. Someone to learn and grow with. Someone who can give me encouragement and support when I need it and can ask for it from me when he needs it. I want a true partner in life, a relationship where we inspire each other to evolve into the best versions of ourselves. I’m not willing to settle for anything less. And I’m happy to be single until I find it. And if I don’t find it, that’s ok. I’ll continue working on being the best version of myself. Maturing, growing, enjoying life. If that leads me to a fulfilling relationship in the future, fantastic. If not, I’ll still be evolving into a happier healthier person and living a life that brings me joy. Fuck fishing! Friend, I love your answer!! You are growing, maturing, learning, and changing!! You are open to it and that is a great thing! Your response reminds me of a night at my Divorce recovery class. We had a lesson about STD's! The lady instructing our class got up there and in the middle of the lesson stated " I ain't never going to be with NO man ever again!" I happened to be in a room with 11 other woman. They where ALL saying "AMEN!". I thought, "that is so sad. That is so wrong!. Do not stereotype all men/woman because of your one spouse!. You are depriving yourself of so much, don't do that to yourself. You are playing right back into your spouses hand!" Meanwhile I get it. I too am going to be way aver cautious when entering another relationship. And yet I am still going to take the risk, be myself, and be vulnerable. After I have time to grieve and heal some more. NOW time will be more my friend, without being under the thumb of my controlling, spouse. Friend ,look back at your statement. "I have NO desire to catch a man!" Then you go on to say " someone, someone, someone!" HMM.... sounds like you desire to have a relationship with a man? And you should! And you did! (only he was a taker), It's right, correct, and natural to want that again. Only this time you will achieve an equal amount of giving and receiving. truth, respect, intimacy, sex, and joy. Keep leaning forward! The emphasize should be on “catch”. I have no desire to CATCH a man. It’s not that I don’t desire a healthy and intimate relationship. I don’t want anything to do with a relationship where I have to catch someone. It sounds like it’s based on false pretenses and not much free will. If and when I’m ready for the next relationship, he should want to be there just as much as I do. |
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Post by DryCreek on Mar 16, 2018 9:39:05 GMT -5
The emphasize should be on “catch”. I have no desire to CATCH a man. It’s not that I don’t desire a healthy and intimate relationship. I don’t want anything to do with a relationship where I have to catch someone. It sounds like it’s based on false pretenses and not much free will. If and when I’m ready for the next relationship, he should want to be there just as much as I do. This. I always read this as "trap" or "ensnare". Of course, "catch" makes for a much snappier title or tagline. In some cases it's just a title intended to draw in a reader. But when that's the theme of the author, they're horribly misguided. |
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Post by whuffo on Mar 18, 2018 20:20:47 GMT -5
Edit to add to my above comment..... There are articles on there on avoiding these guys. So let me amend my comments. They can't say EVERYTHING in every article, so with the exception of one or two pieces on the site that might have benefitted from a caveat, I do think it's a good site. Surfergirl, you should write a self-help book for women on how to be more direct and less cryptic. Your candid way of speaking is something that's missing from a lot of women out there. There's enough literature out there for men on how to communicate more in line with how women do, it's about time one is put out that addresses the other side! If BOTH parties in a relationship worked to communicate for the listener instead of there being so much focus on how bad men are at it and how to fix them, maybe things would improve |
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