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Post by saarinista on Mar 5, 2018 3:15:31 GMT -5
Bear in mind I am out of my deal, so I am commenting from my position as it once was - not as it presently is. Back in the day of my ILIASM deal, just like you Sister choosinghappy , I too didn't "want to upset the peace we had in our household". Short term that was easily handled by the simple expedient of going along with everything she wanted and eschewing everything she didn't want. That worked great for keeping the peace, and it worked great for my missus - for a while. It didn't work for me at all - after a while. "Peace at all costs" is not peace at all. It is just delaying the day of reckoning. Did we discuss it ? Yeah. But only a few times. Those few times turned in to arguements and finger pointing etc and achieved nothing. Nor did counselling etc. I usually don't need to be told something more than once or twice, so from then on, the matter was rarely discussed. Why bother ? Her actions said everything that needed to be said. Words were superfluous. I just regarded her as pretty irrelevant as a spouse and didn't engage at that "married couple" level any further. Funnily enough, that put us on the same page as far as the marriage went, although she still wanted to put on an act for the wider community. She was a good Financial Partner though, and that was the basis of how we stumbled onward toward 30 years. Some people might regard a marriage that survived for 30 years a big success ! I personally am not necessarily of that opinion. Anyway, toward the end, she started to engage in behaviours that threatened the Financial Partnership, the only decent thing remaining. That torpedoed the deal. We spli My wife and I just passed the 30 year mark and I'm exactly in the same boat as you were. She is a great Financial Partner but not a Marriage Partner. Though I'm very unhappy and no sex for 18 years now, my financial position would be a disaster and deadly if I were to divorce right now.
So I hang in there, day by day. Very sad and not much of a way to enjoy life, but at least I have a roof over my head, a car to drive to get to work so I can pay off my bills and food on my table.
My goal at this point is to try to eliminate enough debt that it will be financially possible to change my life. But I stare at the possibility that each day that goes by is one less day that I will ever be able to see life in a better way and enjoy the companionship of a woman and intimacy ever again.
I say this as a warning to younger folks currently in SM. This is what your life will be like if you don't address it and change it for you now while you're still young enough and don't have as much time invested in your marriage as I have.
Thanks baza and I'm glad you were able to escape and find someone who you can share what I dream of.
solodriver 18 years? Far be it from me to run someone else's life as i have enough trouble running my own, but at this point, I fear you're getting too used to the status quo to make a change. The longer you stay stuck in a rut-at least in my case-the harder it is to get out. When you look back, will the money be worth the lonliness? I feel for you. I've never had tons of money, so maybe I just don't know how great it can be, but I do know that there are lots of ways to economize. There are lots of fun things that aren't that expensive. And the more money you have, the more you want. The more stuff you have, the more stuff you think you need. In a way, it's expensive to be well-off. At least, that's what i found. I don't mean to offend you and I haven't changed my own situation so who am I to say, but i will say this-assuming you have a roof over your head and food to eat, you can cope. As for trying to impress people? I've found that the ones impressed by wealth and power aren't my kind of people anyway. All the best to you.
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Post by tiredofbeinglonely on Mar 5, 2018 4:01:18 GMT -5
Over the first decade of our marriage, I brought it up all of the time. Sometimes he would give excuses, sometimes he would "try" by seeing a doctor or therapist. Sex NEVER improved. Over the past decade, I haven't talked about it much. I really feel little for him. I sleep on the couch waiting for my exit.
This has all been a major blow to my self esteem. I really found myself unattractive and deserving of my fate. I finally woke up, realized my worth, and began my exit plan. I lost weight, went to college and started a career, and began pampering myself.
There is one thing I know...my next partner with love and adore me. I will accept nothing less.
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Post by elynne on Mar 25, 2018 17:53:05 GMT -5
For the first 10 years of our marriage I never brought it up. I was still trying to figure out what I had done wrong. Trying to figure out what combination of words or actions or chores would repair the rift.
Then about 10 months ago I had a major crisis. It hit me like a freight train - the years of loneliness and rejection. I couldn’t convince myself that if I just tried harder it would all be ok.
So I told him how unhappy I was. I told him things had to change or I couldn’t stay. I really tried to connect with him. Tried to seduce him and was pushed away.
I’ve decided that I’m going to continue to push the issue; bring up the lack of intimacy, remind him how painful it is to be ignored and rejected. I’ve told him that if I don’t continue to bring it up I fear that things will settle into an uneasy and unhappy status quo.
I told him tonight that I am going to continue to push the issue until things improve or he’s had enough and files for divorce.
He asked me, “And you won’t file for divorce?” I had to give that some thought. My very honest answer was, “I’m not there yet. I’m still giving this my best effort. I think you’ll run out of patience with my efforts before I do. Though there may certainly come a point where I may decide that I’m done banging my head against the wall.”
So how often? As of 10 months ago maybe every other month. But as I’ve got nothing to lose, and I’m certainly not going to make the relationship any worse, I’m bringing it up whenever I have the energy to address it. It’s turning out to be every few days.
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Post by flounder on Mar 25, 2018 20:17:39 GMT -5
Bravo elynne. It sounds like you have drawn a wide swath in the sand.
“Whenever men and women straighten their backs up, they are going somewhere, because a man can't ride your back unless it is bent.” -Martin Luther King Jr.
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Post by baza on Mar 25, 2018 20:28:18 GMT -5
I'm floating this as a different viewpoint Sister elynne . It may be completely useless to you. Anyway - I think your spouse would way sooner "sweep this all under the rug" (and viewed from his position I am none too sure that if it were me, that I wouldn't want to do so too). Now, we all "know" that you can't fix someone else's problem...so that option is out. But, you probably can't help but feel that it would be in his best longer term best interests to address his issues (if that is possible)- if not for the benefit of this relationship, then for his "next". For 10 years, you more or less helped him "sweep it under the carpet" and that really hasn't helped him at all (and definitely hasn't helped you at all) That would mean that your current course of action - of keeping the pressure on - is actually motivated by "trying to do him a favour by not enabling him to keep sweeping it under the carpet" as much as it is you looking after your best long term interests. Viewed from that perspective your current course of action is actually highly compassionate, and caring. "Tough love" if you like.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 25, 2018 21:32:01 GMT -5
To @ellyne, here's a suggestion in how to deal with your evasive, manipulative controlling, narcissistic H.
TAKE YOUR LIFE BACK. This is most likely to be one of the most difficult and painful choices you'll make as an adult. It requires you to confront your fears, vulnerabilities and wounds going back to your childhood.
It requires a commitment to make you and your well being a priorty.
It requires that you ignore the vilification, avoiding, reversing, finger pointing, and anything else your narcissistic H. has in his bag of tricks. It requires that your rational mind overide the urgent feelings of loss, emptiness, loneliness, seperateness, guilt and shame activated by your emotional mind.
Emotions are just fleeting blibs. They won't kill you. Torment you? SURE. Kill you? NO!
On the other hand remaining in a relationship- asking your narcissistic H. weekly about intimacy- could very well be your cause of death or the wish for death (as you posted earlier)
Drop it! You've got your answer! He avoided your demands, your boundaries, with reversal and questions.
You let him get away with it and it's going to continue.
Hugs to you, as I 💘lovingly ask you not to keep doing this to yourself!
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Post by elynne on Mar 26, 2018 2:29:02 GMT -5
I'm floating this as a different viewpoint Sister elynne . It may be completely useless to you. Anyway - I think your spouse would way sooner "sweep this all under the rug" (and viewed from his position I am none too sure that if it were me, that I wouldn't want to do so too). Now, we all "know" that you can't fix someone else's problem...so that option is out. But, you probably can't help but feel that it would be in his best longer term best interests to address his issues (if that is possible)- if not for the benefit of this relationship, then for his "next". For 10 years, you more or less helped him "sweep it under the carpet" and that really hasn't helped him at all (and definitely hasn't helped you at all) That would mean that your current course of action - of keeping the pressure on - is actually motivated by "trying to do him a favour by not enabling him to keep sweeping it under the carpet" as much as it is you looking after your best long term interests. Viewed from that perspective your current course of action is actually highly compassionate, and caring. "Tough love" if you like. Your comment holds a lot of truth. It requires me to own my inaction over the last decade. It requires me to find my backbone. It’s not easy, but it is the right thing to do. At least at this point in time. Last night he told me that 10 months ago I was ready to walk away. I admitted to him that I recognize now that walking away would have been cowardly. That it wouldn’t have been easy, but it would have been the easy way out. He is resistant to seeing that I’m making almost all of the effort to drive change; reading a lot about relationship theory, attachment theory, researching couples therapists and retreats. And that he doesn’t reply. We talked about anger and resentment that we both hold on to. We talked about body language. We talked about my childhood and that surviving my unideal childhood meant I had to become very good at reading subtle clues, being very in tune to reading others. He scoffed at this, saying I was overly sensitive to interpreting the meaning behind his behavior. He brought up the example that he made my coffee every morning. He felt pressured to do it even if he was running late because he felt that if he didn’t, I would read into it. I countered. If we’ve just had an argument, not making my coffee sends a message. “Of course. That’s obvious,” he replied. I said, “If you’ve overslept or are running late, I assume you didn’t have time,” I said. He nodded. I went on... “If I’m telling you something very difficult and am being vulnerable with you and you lay with your back towards me and avoid eye contact and then tell me you’re going to bed, your body language very clearly tells me that you are trying to avoid what I’m telling you.” “But then I did talk to you for a little bit,” he says. I bring the conversation back to my point. “The examples that we’ve just discussed are examples that you communicate quite clearly with your body language, even when you’re not willing to talk. I’m not misreading your signals because of my sensitivy to it.” He was frustrated that I said I’m working much harder to try to solve this than he is. I suggested that perhaps this is because I find the distance more painful than he does. He agreed that perhaps our desired levels of closeness may be mismatched. But that the current situation is also too little for him. I told him that one of my fears is that we work on our issues but that he will reach a level where he’s content and I’m still left feeling disconnected and unhappy. That he (being the one with less of a desire for contact) controls how much closeness is acceptable. Regardless, if we do reach that point we’ll have made considerable progress. And when we reach that point I’ll have to choose whether what he can provide is close enough to what I desire. I also told him that it’s not enough for both of us to say we want a better relationship than we have now. That we need to actually discuss what we both want and need and see if that’s compatible. He’s very good at deflecting and side tracking the conversation. He’ll bring up things to try to bait me into bickering - “you complain that I have a negative attitude about therapy, but YOU think the therapist isn’t helping. YOU say we have to go, but now you’re changing your mind.” Yes - I’m angry when you refer to therapy as “fucking therapy” because it makes me feel like you’re not invested in fixing this. That is independent of wondering if our particular therapist is seeing the big picture and helping us to lay the underlying issues bare and working with us to address them. Man - talking to him is HARD! But by learning to communicate with H, I have to grow so much as a person. I have to accept blame. I have to own up to and accept the things I’m ashamed about. I have to be able to catch my defensive reactions before I act. Sit with those uncomfortable feelings and then react from a place of calm and compassion. Sometimes I fail miserably. But I’m continuing to work at it. And we’re having difficult conversations that we were never able to have even when we were in the early ‘honeymoon’ phase of our marriage. No matter where this path leads, I will certainly be a better and wiser person for having trod it.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 26, 2018 7:57:02 GMT -5
Walking away IS NOT cowardly, or easy.
Doing nothing is doing something.
Saying nothing is saying something!
Walking away requires divorce and one of the biggest decissions and changes in your life. Back to boundaries with consequences. That's saying no, not walking away. It's justice. It's righting wrongs and standing up for what is right, and having the strength and fortitude to do it!
Many of us can look back on our parents who stuck it out with a refuser, controller or a narcissistic. ( Their situations where different- finances, social acceptance etc...- that's a whole different post) They ended up miserable, and passed that along to the next generation.
You have the insight and the strength to offer a better example for your kids and their future.
Loosing battles does not mean you loose the war. Quite the contrary.
Think of it as a tug of war, dropping the rope is not quitting. What it does, is it causes the other side to land on their butt. Giving you the freedom to walk away, and gain control.
Some of the same tactics your H. uses on you, when he turns his back, changes the subject, reverses the blame, etc...( look how far it's gotten him, how many years it has paid off) He drops the rope and YOU fall flat.
Think of it as war strategy. Like the patriots verses the redcoats. You have been following tradition and are attacking the enemy head on fully exposed all standing in a line. ( for 10 yrs you where surrendering, just handing in your weopon and suffering the consequences) It's time to take cover regroup, strategize, let the enemy pass and strike from behind.
Some of our biggest victories in life are wars that where avoided. Wars where we would have been slaughtered, but we won by not even engaging in it!
Time to reverse all that.Time to take your life back. To thine own self be true!
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 26, 2018 10:52:40 GMT -5
He was frustrated that I said I’m working much harder to try to solve this than he is. I suggested that perhaps this is because I find the distance more painful than he does . [...] That he (being the one with less of a desire for contact) controls how much closeness is acceptable. Regardless, if we do reach that point we’ll have made considerable progress. And when we reach that point I’ll have to choose whether what he can provide is close enough to what I desire. I also told him that it’s not enough for both of us to say we want a better relationship than we have now. That we need to actually discuss what we both want and need and see if that’s compatible. [...] Yes - I’m angry when you refer to therapy as “fucking therapy” because it makes me feel like you’re not invested in fixing this. Some parts of this story jumped out as overlapping my own experience with ex-Mrs Aprocrypha. I recall our therapist asking us to write the % of effort each of us was investing into making the relationship work, and showing each other. Unsurprisingly (to him), we each wrote about 90% to 10% in our own favour. We were both infuriated, and the therapist explained that this was a common result in our situation. It took some time from that session before I was able to put together what it meant. The level of effort on each side was real but the goals were different. I'll explain in context with the next part that I highlighted from your story: namely "because I find the distance more painful than he does". You aren't wrong. I later realized that the only way we both could be correct and truthful in the level of effort we were making, was if her unstated goal was to minimize the amount of sexual expression between us, while still "making the marriage work", whereas mine was to increase it. My assumption that she didn't care that much about sex was incorrect. Sex was very important to her. Evidence: a) she'd had an affair b) she'd engaged in celibacy that she knew made me unhappy c) she extended that celibacy to the point that the marriage, family, and household was at risk d) she'd pitched, eventually, a somewhat open relationship but focusing (it later came out) mainly on her own feelings about "exploring sexuality" and actively avoiding what it meant for me. As a single man, I've had "why not?" sex in which I said "yes" in situations in which I was ambivalent because I'm a grown up adult and I liked my partner enough to at least want to make her feel happy. For me, given the context, it was less work and harm to say "yes" than it was to say "no thanks", with little cost to me. That's ambivalence. That's not your situation, nor was it mine in marriage. In that situation, increasingly, our whole lives as we knew them were at stake. I would add that the therapist helped us claw our way back to "a better relationship than we had". We became better at communicating. She became more assertive in saying what she wanted and less passive aggressive (though I think it still defines her primary method of conflict). We had an objectively better relationship - but it's important to not that it still lacked desire. I'd say, looking back, that from the time of her affair, we clawed our way almost back to zero. So in terms of sexual expression, I likely had only slightly less chance of igniting that with her than a blank stranger on the street - which was a lot better than where we started. As for your characterization of the way he derisively and dismissively refers to "fucking therapy" - that's also very much the way Mrs Apocrypha tried to dismiss and minimize the importance of her lack of desire for me, as well as the way she tried to villainize me for finding that incompatible with my concept of a married relationship. She frequently fell back on the characterization that this was just about sex and that I would eventually find what I wanted: someone to have sex with. I was trading our family for sex, whereas she was the hero who was weathering the same things and wanted to stick, if only I would shut up about it. I went with that for a while until it dawned on me that we were in the same marriage, but I wanted her and she didn't want me. It meant something that she didn't want me. It wasn't just about the sex. It was about the disgust. Something about me, or about us, or about the circumstance of marriage - had made her become actively repulsed to me. Not indifferent to sex in general. Intuitively I knew this, because that's how her refusal made me feel. Even as I had said the words to her on the issue in the past, it had always been mutually understood as a mistake somehow - like it was the incorrect interpretation of the absence of intimacy. But it wasn't. It really wasn't. So, in light of the resentment and belittling of the therapy you are hearing - that's genuine because if he thinks the therapy is aiming towards him getting it on with you, it's running counter to his goal of minimizing sexual expression. The therapy is a threat if it is working opposite to his goal of deflection and minimization. He's trying 100% to hang on to the household while satisfying his goal of avoiding sex with you and keeping you happy enough to stay. You are trying 100% to hang on to household by satisfying your goal of including sexual expression and desire within the context of marriage (which frankly - is likely within both of your definitions of marriage), so that your marriage isn't a constant reminder of your husband's aversion to you. He is going to the therapy as appeasement, but he is not (and likely cannot) enlist in the goal of maximizing sexual expression because of his aversion to you. Thus therapy becomes a new battleground in which to filibuster, deflect, or enact the reasons he is justified in not wanting you. And lets be realistic - nobody really needs a justification to want or not want someone - it makes no difference in the result.
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Post by DryCreek on Mar 26, 2018 12:53:18 GMT -5
elynne, broad brush strokes here... reading this latest exchange I'm struck by two points - communication and empathy. For some people, over-communication is like nails on a chalkboard - it's an "unnecessary burden". (A la, "You should have known / concluded that for yourself.") But, boy, it sure prevents misinterpretations. Running late? "Sorry, I couldn't make your coffee this morning because I'm running late." Takes 5 seconds, relieves the guilt of having failed the routine, and totally avoids misinterpretation. They're still asleep / on the phone / in the shower (or all three ;-)? Send a text or a short call when appropriate. The other half of the equation is even recognizing that something you're doing might be interpreted poorly, and that communication might be needed. A mix of empathy and self-awareness; aka, "emotional intelligence". It seems that your husband does have some grasp here, but could use more work on acknowledging issues and facing them instead of ignoring it. That kind of introspection and boldness takes a lot of uncomfortable work to develop; it won't happen casually.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 26, 2018 13:45:54 GMT -5
Communication and empathy takes a small percentage of giving. That also requires being vulnerable to giving up some control.
Such behavior is Not in a narcissist words and actions. It's not just you, watch how they treat your children, coworkers, and relatives.
The making of the coffee is similiar to the goodbye peck.symbolism in their own mind that they are valuable.
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