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Post by wewbwb on Dec 20, 2017 16:06:31 GMT -5
#1-I just caution people with the whole labeling others as "narcissists" etc. #2-Self empowerment lies in personal responsibility. It's just a fact. Giving our power away to others will only keep us down. I am responsible for my own happiness and how I let others treat me. It's not easy, but that doesn't make it any less true. #1 - You are very right. It is incredibility overused. Just because we have a different opinion and just because I will defend mine - doesn't make me OR you a "narcissist" - Nor does me wanting my way - Nor you for wanting yours. #2- "Personal Responsibility" is important. However, for many of us, our decisions do not only effect us. Our decisions also effect spouses and children. Some may feel that the "If the household isn't happy it is bad for them anyway." Fair point. However, what if they can't work? Can afford a place to live in a safe area? Will come to struggle for basics items if you leave? Furthermore - what does that say about the person who leaves? Would you want to date a man or woman who walked out on a sick spouse who now has to live in a slum? Does your opinion change if it was because they didn't want sex? So, No - it's not simple. Also - I agree that my happiness is MY responsibility - however- we can certainly contribute to someone's "unhappiness" and "hardships". |
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Post by baza on Dec 20, 2017 19:09:43 GMT -5
I might be debating semantics here, but I think the resolution to the specific problem of being in an ILIASM shithole is actually *simple*.
Getting out of the ILIASM shithole will resolve that specific problem, guaranteed.
Now if that *simple* resolution to the problem is undertaken, then carrying out the logistics involved in that choice is where things get difficult. Real difficult.
Getting out of an ILIASM shithole will resolve that particular problem in your life.
And, getting out of an ILIASM shithole will throw up a whole heap of "new" problems and choices for you to deal with.
It is a trade off.
You'd get rid of one huge and insoluble problem, and you'd pick up a series of new problems.
And you may find that this raft of new problems are each manageable (with great difficulty) in their own way, and that you can work your way through these problems.
And you might then proceed with the simple resolution to the core problem.
or
You might find the whole raft of new problems that that would emerge are too intimidating a prospect.
And you would reject the simple answer to the core problem and you'd stay.
Either, are perfectly legitimate choices.
And whichever choice you make, you own.
Again, I may be talking semantics here, but the resolution of the problem of being in an ILIASM shithole is simplicity itself. You get out of the situation.
It is the managing of the new problems that that simple remedy throws up that is extraordinarily difficult.
Yet, many people go down this path (many of them currently members of this group) successfully.
That doesn't make them any better (or worse) than those who choose to stay.
But I suspect that what it DOE'S mean is that they were as fully prepared as they could be for the raft of new problems.
And that preparation can begin whenever you like.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 20, 2017 19:24:21 GMT -5
“Would you want to date a man or woman who walked out on a sick spouse who now has to live in a slum?
Does your opinion change if it was because they didn't want sex? “
Many people live in slums. Unless one partner hid assets or otherwise took unfair financial advantage, I don’t see a reason to not date the partner’s not living in a slum. Maybe their ex is living in a slum because they are able to work but are too lazy or are addicted to drugs or refuse to take medication for a treatable condition.
As for abandoning an ill person, I’d be interested in hearing more about the reasons. The ill person could have been abusive. There was a woman on EP who took unreasonable pride in taking care of her ill husband even though he not only had been and was physically abusive, unfaithful and verbally abusive, she literally was making herself illby taking care of him. He was ungrateful, unpleasant and had adult children who were mean to her. I thought she was a damned fool sacrificing her life for nothing. He probably ended up outliving her.
Meanwhile, I know at least one person who divorced an addicted husband yet helped care for him later after he became terminally ill with cancer. That is always a choice one can select after divorcing.
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Post by tamara68 on Dec 21, 2017 5:56:37 GMT -5
“Would you want to date a man or woman who walked out on a sick spouse who now has to live in a slum? Does your opinion change if it was because they didn't want sex? “ Many people live in slums. Unless one partner hid assets or otherwise took unfair financial advantage, I don’t see a reason to not date the partner’s not living in a slum. Maybe their ex is living in a slum because they are able to work but are too lazy or are addicted to drugs or refuse to take medication for a treatable condition. As for abandoning an ill person, I’d be interested in hearing more about the reasons. The ill person could have been abusive. There was a woman on EP who took unreasonable pride in taking care of her ill husband even though he not only had been and was physically abusive, unfaithful and verbally abusive, she literally was making herself illby taking care of him. He was ungrateful, unpleasant and had adult children who were mean to her. I thought she was a damned fool sacrificing her life for nothing. He probably ended up outliving her. Meanwhile, I know at least one person who divorced an addicted husband yet helped care for him later after he became terminally ill with cancer. That is always a choice one can select after divorcing. I have left my husband who was ill. His physical problems were not bad enough to make work impossible. According to me that is. According to him he is not able to work. His mental problems are a lot worse according to me, but according to him there is nothing wrong with him mentally. Apart from being unhappy and depressed which is my fault. For many years I thought there was no solution for my problems and I thought I would have to endure him for the rest of my life. That made me desperate. I thought he wouldn't be able to take care for himself. Eventually I did leave him and he managed to move back to the Netherlands where he gets a social allowance. So he managed that better than expected. But before he achieved that, there has been some time in which I didn't provide for everything and he didn't get an allowance. That was very hard. I felt bad about that and it was difficult to not give in and trust that things would get solved. I am sure that in the USA these situations are a lot worse where a dependent spouse would really end up in a slum. I wouldn't want to be the cause of that. At the same time I am convinced that many situations are not as hopeless as they seam. So before deciding that there is nothing possible, you have to look everywhere for solutions. I know someone who had devided his house in two seperate areas. He lived upstairs, his wife downstairs. It was not ideal but for several years it has been a lot better than before. Dependent spouses may also be not as helpless as they appear. eternaloptimism had a husband who found a job as soon as his wife left him. Who would have thought that? They rely on us to feel guilty enough to keep supporting them. Fear Obligation and Guilt are what keeps us in our place. And it also keeps us from finding solutions. |
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Post by wewbwb on Dec 21, 2017 7:45:38 GMT -5
I might be debating semantics here, but I think the resolution to the specific problem of being in an ILIASM shithole is actually *simple*. Getting out of the ILIASM shithole will resolve that specific problem, guaranteed. Now if that *simple* resolution to the problem is undertaken, then carrying out the logistics involved in that choice is where things get difficult. Real difficult. Getting out of an ILIASM shithole will resolve that particular problem in your life. And, getting out of an ILIASM shithole will throw up a whole heap of "new" problems and choices for you to deal with. It is a trade off. You'd get rid of one huge and insoluble problem, and you'd pick up a series of new problems. And you may find that this raft of new problems are each manageable (with great difficulty) in their own way, and that you can work your way through these problems. And you might then proceed with the simple resolution to the core problem. or You might find the whole raft of new problems that that would emerge are too intimidating a prospect. And you would reject the simple answer to the core problem and you'd stay. Either, are perfectly legitimate choices. And whichever choice you make, you own. Again, I may be talking semantics here, but the resolution of the problem of being in an ILIASM shithole is simplicity itself. You get out of the situation. It is the managing of the new problems that that simple remedy throws up that is extraordinarily difficult. Yet, many people go down this path (many of them currently members of this group) successfully. That doesn't make them any better (or worse) than those who choose to stay. But I suspect that what it DOE'S mean is that they were as fully prepared as they could be for the raft of new problems. And that preparation can begin whenever you like. If I am understanding this correctly (And yes- I could be wrong..) You are saying that the "solution" is simple - Leave. However, what happens after that can be complicated and intimidating. I'll agree to this. My basic point is this. Our actions and decisions are not made in a vacuum. Other peoples lives are affected by them. So making a decision that will affect another persons life is worthy of very careful consideration. |
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Post by wewbwb on Dec 21, 2017 8:01:49 GMT -5
“Would you want to date a man or woman who walked out on a sick spouse who now has to live in a slum? Does your opinion change if it was because they didn't want sex? “ Many people live in slums. Unless one partner hid assets or otherwise took unfair financial advantage, I don’t see a reason to not date the partner’s not living in a slum. Maybe their ex is living in a slum because they are able to work but are too lazy or are addicted to drugs or refuse to take medication for a treatable condition. As for abandoning an ill person, I’d be interested in hearing more about the reasons. The ill person could have been abusive. There was a woman on EP who took unreasonable pride in taking care of her ill husband even though he not only had been and was physically abusive, unfaithful and verbally abusive, she literally was making herself illby taking care of him. He was ungrateful, unpleasant and had adult children who were mean to her. I thought she was a damned fool sacrificing her life for nothing. He probably ended up outliving her. Meanwhile, I know at least one person who divorced an addicted husband yet helped care for him later after he became terminally ill with cancer. That is always a choice one can select after divorcing. So your answer is maybe. Fair enough. As for myself, I would be very careful about being with someone who left a sick partner. For me it's about character. If they did it once, they will do it again, and it gets easier the second time. Now, that being said, I know every situation is different and the dynamics of a relationship can be "messy". (I know a couple who scream at each other all the time. Call each other names and tell each each other how stupid they are. Yet, neither one of them would ever consider leaving. I asked the husband "What's the deal there?" He replied "Oh she's just crazy. But so am I, and she puts up with me. It's all good. " Um. Okay? I was speechless. Anyway, to simply say "Leave." seems to me to be a myopic view. |
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 21, 2017 8:10:00 GMT -5
“My basic point is this.
Our actions and decisions are not made in a vacuum. Other peoples lives are affected by them.
So making a decision that will affect another persons life is worthy of very careful consideration”
Of course that’s true. Now let’s look at careful consideration. It’s not years of venting to friends while never taking the time to listen empathically to their problems.
Careful consideration can be things like seeing a lawyer to find out how a divorce would shake out; getting individual or marital therapy to reflect on the situation, fix what is fixable and if you decide to divorce, making it as fair and drama free as possible. Careful consideration can be reading self help and other books with knowledge that could help you heal and make decisions in the best way possible. It could mean talking to a financial planner, getting better job skills, learning how to run a household, developing hobbies and friendships that make you happy..
Careful consideration isn’t remaining stuck in inertia while acting passive aggressive, resentfully or like a helpless victim thus teaching one’s kids what to expect in their own relationships.
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Post by wewbwb on Dec 21, 2017 9:33:19 GMT -5
1-Of course that’s true. Now let’s look at careful consideration. It’s not years of venting to friends while never taking the time to listen empathically to their problems. 2-Careful consideration can be things like seeing a lawyer to find out how a divorce would shake out; getting individual or marital therapy to reflect on the situation, fix what is fixable and if you decide to divorce, making it as fair and drama free as possible. Careful consideration can be reading self help and other books with knowledge that could help you heal and make decisions in the best way possible. It could mean talking to a financial planner, getting better job skills, learning how to run a household, developing hobbies and friendships that make you happy.. 3-Careful consideration isn’t remaining stuck in inertial while acting passive aggressive, resentfully or like a helpless victim thus teaching one’s kids what to expect in their own relationships. 1- That's just being a bad friend. 2- Yes It CAN mean all these things and more. 3- This one sounds very judgmental to me. To me it sounds that unless someone is doing one an approved "steps" and telling everyone about it- They are " inertial while acting passive aggressive, resentfully or like a helpless victim thus teaching one’s kids what to expect in their own relationships." One must remember that we only know what people choose to post. On a public forum. So we may not be seeing or understanding the entire dynamic. I may have misunderstood your statement and I apologize if I did, but enough times in my life when I had opinions of others, I'd been shown that I haven't understood their position. |
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 21, 2017 10:11:06 GMT -5
“As for myself, I would be very careful about being with someone who left a sick partner.
For me it's about character. If they did it once, they will do it again, and it gets easier the second time.”
One major thing that scared me as I considered leaving my SM: whether I wanted my husband to be responsible for me if I got sick.
I did not. His way of dealing with problems was to deny them. He also was virtually totally unable to talk about emotionally difficult situations. I did not ever want to be in a position in which he was making decisions for my medical care.
I felt I would be far better off dying in the company of friends or paid caregivers than with my husband.
I also feared being responsible for him if he became seriously ill. My parents remained in a miserable sm until my dad died in his 70s after years of decline following a series of strokes. My mom was his caregiver and had to feed him and change his diapers. She resented every moment. By the time my dad died, Mom had given up on life and just wished for her own death.
I did not want to end up like either of them, and that reasoning was part of my decision to divorce before I had no choice.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 21, 2017 10:35:33 GMT -5
“3- This one sounds very judgmental to me. To me it sounds that unless someone is doing one an approved "steps" and telling everyone about it- They are " inertial while acting passive aggressive, resentfully or like a helpless victim thus teaching one’s kids what to expect in their own relationships."“
I choose to detach from people who spend years on end venting to me about the same problem but take no steps to resolve it. It’s depressing to be around such people especially since the ones I’ve known have expressed little interest in my life. They have just turned to me to dump.
I consider them emotional vampires who get their kicks out of being victims. Otherwise they’d either start taking steps to resolve the problem or they would take steps to find ways of being content despite their difficulties.
Some of the nicest and most caring people I know have difficult lives including problems that can’t be solved. For instance, the woman I most admire lost all of her kids (SIDS, AIDS, murder), has had cancer, had abusive parents and 2 addicted spouses. She also has fibromyalgia so is in pain a lot. She doesn’t have much money. She has many reasons to live a bitter unhappy life. Yet, our friendship is mutual. She tells me about her problems but also is a good listener for mine. And she offers emotional support to many who are going through crises similar to what she has.
It’s inportant to recognize that if one’s way of coping with a sm is to vent to others for years while you do nothing to resolve the situation (even if resolution means learning to accept the marriage you have), it’s possible no matter how caring your friends are, they may get sick of hearing about it, and they may move on.
I’m saying this as a person who used to do that to my friends. I remember one friend telling me she was sick of hearing about my sm. She was there for me when I divorced. She probably would have been there for me if I’d resolved to uncomplainingly settle for the marriage I had. She just didn’t want to keep hearing me complain without taking actions to make my life better.
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Post by wewbwb on Dec 21, 2017 11:04:11 GMT -5
I choose to detach from people who spend years on end venting to me about the same problem but take no steps to resolve it. It’s depressing to be around such people especially since the ones I’ve known have expressed little interest in my life. They have just turned to me to dump. I consider them emotional vampires who get their kicks out of being victims. Otherwise they’d either start taking steps to resolve the problem or they would take steps to find ways of being content despite their difficulties. Some of the nicest and most caring people I know have difficult lives including problems that can’t be solved. For instance, the woman I most admire lost all of her kids (SIDS, AIDS, murder), has had cancer, had abusive parents and 2 addicted spouses. She also has fibromyalgia so is in pain a lot. She doesn’t have much money. She has many reasons to live a bitter unhappy life. Yet, our friendship is mutual. She tells me about her problems but also is a good listener for mine. And she offers emotional support to many who are going through crises similar to what she has. It’s inportant to recognize that if one’s way of coping with a sm is to vent to others for years while you do nothing to resolve the situation (even if resolution means learning to accept the marriage you have), it’s possible no matter how caring your friends are, they may get sick of hearing about it, and they may move on. I’m saying this as a person who used to do that to my friends. I remember one friend telling me she was sick of hearing about my sm. She was there for me when I divorced. She probably would have been there for me if I’d resolved to uncomplainingly settle for the marriage I had. She just didn’t want to keep hearing me complain without taking actions to make my life better. Well I think the key thing here is that it is a reciprocal relationship. As I said - I have learned that I must be the friend to others that I want them to be for me. |
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