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Post by wom360 on Nov 30, 2017 0:52:47 GMT -5
I don’t think I’ve seen this one here before. Lots of great wisdom here. One nugget: men cheat to stay in a sexless marriage, women cheat to get out of one.
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Post by h on Nov 30, 2017 6:16:00 GMT -5
Saw this one. Great talk with lots of insight.
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Post by Dan on Dec 1, 2017 13:53:49 GMT -5
This was introduced mid-thread on a different thread: iliasm.org/post/61862/threadI watched the opening few minutes now, and recall that I rather didn't like this talk. I recall not much novel/insightful content, nor was there much in the way of a proposed solution. I also recall many of her attempts at humor left me flat, even rubbed me the wrong way (*) when she devolved to classic stereotypes ("men always want it, anyways") for a laugh. I'll update my comments here if I re-watch it fully and have a different opinion. (*: still seeking a woman who can "rub me the right way". Sorry. I just can't turn off that part of my brain; sometimes I make innuendo-laced side comments about my own writing as I write...) |
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Post by choosinghappy on Dec 2, 2017 21:37:29 GMT -5
I've seen this one. And I disagree that women cheat to get out of the marriage and not to stay in it. I am proof of that.
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Post by wom360 on Dec 2, 2017 23:26:30 GMT -5
I've seen this one. And I disagree that women cheat to get out of the marriage and not to stay in it. I am proof of that. You cheated so you could handle staying married? No judgment, just curious about the dynamics. |
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Post by worksforme2 on Dec 3, 2017 11:09:26 GMT -5
I wasn't much impressed, maybe because during the yrs. I worked at trying to save my marriage I read all the statistics and conventional wisdom(that mostly turned out to be wrong). A nice woman I'm sure but I didn't see or hear much that would help individuals or couples in a SM to understand the dynamics of what probably is really a mostly unsolvable situation.
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Post by choosinghappy on Dec 3, 2017 17:56:24 GMT -5
I've seen this one. And I disagree that women cheat to get out of the marriage and not to stay in it. I am proof of that. You cheated so you could handle staying married? No judgment, just curious about the dynamics. Yes. And so far it has been effective. It sounds counterintuitive but it has made me a better wife and mom because I’m no longer angry and frustrated all the time. |
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Post by baza on Dec 3, 2017 19:10:20 GMT -5
The (perfectly valid) cheating option invariably does one of two things.
For some, it provides relief of sexual limitations imposed by the sexless primary relationship.
It helps you cope with the sexless primary relationship, helps you stay in said sexless primary relationship.
For some, it provides a stark and real wake up call about what is missing in your primary relationship and gets you thinking about the possibility of having a primary relationship with all the trimmings.
It helps you see what life could be like, and can provide a powerful motivation to call time on the sexless primary relationship
I think the thing is, that you never really know which way the cards will fall when you get into the (perfectly valid) cheating option, until you are actually in it.
And of course, there is the most common outcome of this choice- getting caught - which may precipitate -
(a) - your spouse going apeshit and divorcing you
or
(b) - your spouse making your life a misery by holding it against you for ever more.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 3, 2017 21:47:53 GMT -5
You cheated so you could handle staying married? No judgment, just curious about the dynamics. Yes. And so far it has been effective. It sounds counterintuitive but it has made me a better wife and mom because I’m no longer angry and frustrated all the time. You do realize that this is a band-aid approach to an open gun shot wound to the head. No judgement- I personally would have done the same if given the opportunity. It is something to think about as you continue to take steps forward towards self improvement. |
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Post by Dan on Dec 4, 2017 9:45:16 GMT -5
You cheated so you could handle staying married? No judgment, just curious about the dynamics. Yes. And so far it has been effective. It sounds counterintuitive but it has made me a better wife and mom because I’m no longer angry and frustrated all the time. For many years, this was my chosen path as well: 1) Acknowledging that sexual intimacy in the marriage was a standstill, but that the marriage was still worth working on. 2) Justifying that there are other social activities I do without my wife because my wife doesn't care to do them (example: strategy card games), so maybe I could engage in sex outside the marriage under the same principle. As with choosinghappy , I'd have said at the time and still say now: "it worked pretty well; life was better for me and my refuser spouse." You know, for the appropriate definition of "better". I'm not 100% with baza where he says "invariably does one of two things" and "most common outcome". But I will admit -- in my case -- that while I expected it was going to give my marriage "space" to work out increased sex and intimacy, 1) it didn't, and -- 2) I had to SO harden my heart against her to convince myself as a "good man" that this was justifiable, it really marked the beginning of the end. (Well, I haven't reached the end of the marriage yet, but I can't see reconciling.) Let me recap that thought: it wasn't the sex outside of marriage that marked the beginning of the end of the marriage... it was the point just before that, where I believed sex outside marriage was justifiable. (Which, BTW, I arrived at on my own -- before this forum existed, and even before I found its predecessor, EP ILIASM.) Of course, the proximate cause of getting to that point of that justification was differences of view between my wife an me on the importance of sex and intimacy to sustain the marital relationship. So MAYBE you could dial the "beginning of the end" to that point... but -- nah -- I stick with the "justification". (I don't think these thoughts are at odds with baza 's post; but I think it is a different focal point.) |
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Post by Dan on Dec 4, 2017 9:55:13 GMT -5
You do realize that this is a band-aid approach to an open gun shot wound to the head. I'm not down with this hyperbole. Firstly sexlessness in marriage is not a sudden trauma; it is a chronic and slowly debilitating condition. Instead of "band-aid", let me discuss the term "crutch". In the vernacular, "don't use a crutch" means "don't rely on something to assist you if you are past the point of needing its assistance" or "don't make yourself weaker by relying on something that you don't need". But a crutch is the correct tool to use if you, say, have a broken leg! So if extramarital activities are a "crutch"... are they a beneficial use of that crutch? Or a detrimental use of that crutch? I'm quite certain that the answer is: it totally depends. It depends both on the individual's situation BEFORE engaging in such activities, and it depends on the OUTCOME. In my case (and it sounds like choosinghappy 's), it provided both immediate joy, fulfillment, and relief, as well as -- as baza described -- "a stark and real wake up call about what is missing in your primary relationship and gets you thinking about the possibility of having a primary relationship with all the trimmings". So that is a pretty good outcome. If only all "band-aids" would work so well! |
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Post by choosinghappy on Dec 4, 2017 10:50:40 GMT -5
You do realize that this is a band-aid approach to an open gun shot wound to the head. I'm not down with this hyperbole. Firstly sexlessness in marriage is not a sudden trauma; it is a chronic and slowly debilitating condition. Instead of "band-aid", let me discuss the term "crutch". In the vernacular, "don't use a crutch" means "don't rely on something to assist you if you are past the point of needing its assistance" or "don't make yourself weaker by relying on something that you don't need". But a crutch is the correct tool to use if you, say, have a broken leg! So if extramarital activities are a "crutch"... are they a beneficial use of that crutch? Or a detrimental use of that crutch? I'm quite certain that the answer is: it totally depends. It depends both on the individual's situation BEFORE engaging in such activities, and it depends on the OUTCOME. In my case (and it sounds like choosinghappy 's), it provided both immediate joy, fulfillment, and relief, as well as -- as baza described -- "a stark and real wake up call about what is missing in your primary relationship and gets you thinking about the possibility of having a primary relationship with all the trimmings". So that is a pretty good outcome. If only all "band-aids" would work so well! @dan I too think of it more as a crutch than a band-aid. However, unlike your case of it giving you a wake up call and leading you towards divorce, it has actually given me a bit of a wake up call on starting to want to work harder on my marriage. But I wonder if this is perhaps because I've been actively resisting letting any emotional feelings develop too far. The crutch worked for a while but now I think I'm deciding I want to see how strong the broken leg is and if it has a chance of healing or not. |
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Post by Dan on Dec 4, 2017 11:28:54 GMT -5
Dan I too think of it more as a crutch than a band-aid. However, unlike your case of it giving you a wake up call and leading you towards divorce, it has actually given me a bit of a wake up call on starting to want to work harder on my marriage. But I wonder if this is perhaps because I've been actively resisting letting any emotional feelings develop too far. The crutch worked for a while but now I think I'm deciding I want to see how strong the broken leg is and if it has a chance of healing or not. I'm very happy that you have made choices that seem to be setting you up to take actions that you think are positive. Without describing the full arc of my journey here, I can say that I fell outsourcing, similarly, lead me to positive thoughts and actions. But I'm not outsourcing at this time; it doesn't suit me, or where I want to go. I have things to work on where outsourcing at this time would be more of a distraction/detriment. Which circles back to the "crutch" analogy. A crutch is a tool; use it for good. It is folly to use it when you DON'T need it; it is folly to NOT use it when you can benefit from it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 20:26:53 GMT -5
I like this one a lot, OP. I think I saw it back when it was posted on that other thread. I haven't watched it since then, but I remember thinking, my marriage is so far beyond talking about it, or just doing it. One thing, didn't this woman focus a lot on women as the refusers? Men play equal opportunity in the refusing role. The implication that it's always women burns me a little. But that would be because I feel like I'm the only woman on my block who isn't being chased around the bedroom by her husband. And, yes, I get a little bitter about that sometimes!
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