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Post by rubyslippers on Dec 7, 2017 1:30:30 GMT -5
The most infuriating example from my SM: When I approached the sexless talk too timidly, the conversation would get deflected/avoided. So whenever I approached the conversation with a bit more passion, her response was always the same: “Why are you attacking me?” This cycle happened again and again right up until I started employing the STFU technique (shut the fuck up). DARVO has diminished significantly since STFU. I'm a newbie, just joined. I hear, "Stop attacking me" or "why do you think it is OK to attack me this way?". Im like WTF? Are you kidding me?? Ever time I bring up SM with H. The last time I told him I would show him attack if he said it again. My hurt and anger is over taking me. I didn't realize other people used that phrase. I didn't realize how many of us are in a SM and so miserable.
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Post by james on Dec 7, 2017 3:28:44 GMT -5
Don't worry, rubyslippers, you are sadly far from alone, and will find plenty of support here if you stick around. Welcome. Your husband won't discuss it with you- that is a very bad sign I think. Have you been to counselling together?
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Post by M2G on Dec 7, 2017 6:43:37 GMT -5
I'm a newbie, just joined. I hear, "Stop attacking me" or "why do you think it is OK to attack me this way?". Im like WTF? Are you kidding me?? Ever time I bring up SM with H. The last time I told him I would show him attack if he said it again. My hurt and anger is over taking me. I didn't realize other people used that phrase. I didn't realize how many of us are in a SM and so miserable. Welcome rubyslippers Bringing up the SM with my W was met by: "you're not respecting my boundaries." Different words, same issue. So, the boundary is me, looking for a way out of celibacy. The reason she gave (detailed further on another thread) was singular - something I said years ago that was totally misconstrued. However: while she accepts the error explanation the "boundary" remains. One doesn't have to be a genius to realize that this one incident is NOT the root cause and the issue. Any attempt to discuss is DARVO'd right back at me - a total refusal to deal with the situation. Likely it has to do with her adoptive father sexually assaulting her as an adult, as well as menopause. Perfectly understandable. Probably there is more. Probably there will be no end of the "why's" she would have me chasing if ever she did decide to discuss the issue with me. It all boils down to the fact that she just doesn't want to have sex with me anymore. I'm committed to helping her through her issues - however I hold no illusions that any kind of sexual contact between us will ever happen again. That mindset helps me get through each day without sinking into black moods. I'm working on myself, for me - NOT to get her back into bed. As was said here recently (I believe by northstarmom ): My W is a beloved family member and best friend, but the romantic aspect of our relationship now lies in ashes. Of the three basic choices: Leave, Cheat, Stay in my SM/asexuality I have chosen the 3rd, for now. After 6 years why rush? That decision is tenuous though, and constantly re-evaluated as I work through my other issues. I wished this message board (especially when I first joined a couple of months ago) would be the magic bullet to solving my SM. It is not. What it is, is a group of wise, supportive and compassionate people helping us all deal with the harsh reality that the only choices we have are Leave, Cheat, or live with it.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 7, 2017 9:05:46 GMT -5
Dare I presume your H is resistant to marriage counselling? A therapist had a great idea: Buy a workbook and work on it at home together. For us, this was at least twice a successful as marriage counselling: She only went to the shrink once. She actually filled out TWO chapters in the workbook before quitting. She handed them to me filled out and told me it would be too hard to actually discuss. I copied chapter 3 and left it on the dresser. A couple weeks went by so I wrote on the top page "Is this a waste of time? ||yes ||no". She checked X no and there it lay by her bedside for several days. Then I never saw it again. That was probably a year ago. I haven't brought it up again. I would loan you the workbook except I BURNED it. :-( Do you think your H would like to be "attacked" by a workbook for a change? Been there too! My W's way of pulling DARVO during counselling was to claim " I don't pray enough, I'm not spiritual enough, I need to be the spiritual leader". --Just a side note: she has no right to judge my level or depth of spirituality, based on how eloquently I speak--this was her way of avoiding the intimacy/sex respect issues. I bought a couples devotional book from "Focus on the Family" written by James Dobson. I showed it to her mentioned certain chapters. I got a " ugh-hugh" response. Her response was much the same as we discussed the endings. Then came her " I don't want to discuss that, I'm not going to answer that". On top of her falling asleep and having to be told every night 'lets do the devotional" The whole thing seemed so fake, due to her lack of enthusiasm from the beginning. Like it was this massive burden for her. (just like having sex). Yet ,let a night or two go by and If I didn't do all the initiating , her well planned victim status was " I sat right there in the room in my recliner -reading her I pad, zero communication, and totally ignoring me-ready and waiting for him" The therapist heard of her words and actions, and saw right through it. He'd look at me, and I at him, we would just grin in agreement about her denial and manipulative control. Yea, that book got thrown away, "nothing wrong with the book" and so did the marriage to the wrong person!
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Post by choosinghappy on Dec 7, 2017 12:42:40 GMT -5
She then got quite angry and said that she had held my hand the other night but I had just let it go. So what did I expect? "You held my hand? So? What does that have to do with sex? Do you really think that holding my hand for a couple of minutes is supposed to take the place of a real sex life?" I know... Monday morning quarterbacking, but really. Why would she even try to posit hand-holding as a remedy for a sexless marriage? While I agree with this, it also sounds like your wife was at least attempting a first step. Yes, she reverted to using DARVO when she felt her action was rejected by you, and that’s something she needs to be made aware of, but the bigger issue is that if she was truly trying to take a first step with intimacy that could possibly lead to a “real sex life” then she needs to be better about communicating that to you. And similarly, james, if you really need to have a concrete talk about when you will have sex, pick a date on the calendar and lead up to it in intimate ways, then you need to be upfront with HER about that and what sort of clarity you need about actions leading to sex. DARVO aside I personally think she was trying to reach out to you (literally and figuratively) but if you didn’t know that’s what she was doing then how is it going to help? I think you both need to better communicate about it. But unlike csl I DO think it is an important step on the path to being sexual again. No, holding hands is not going to cure a SM and all the issues that come along with it, but how would you hope to start to work on this withOUT intimate aspects like this to connect you? After all this refusal you’re not just going to jump into bed together either and have it magically fix everything.
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Post by rubyslippers on Dec 7, 2017 20:33:50 GMT -5
Don't worry, rubyslippers, you are sadly far from alone, and will find plenty of support here if you stick around. Welcome. Your husband won't discuss it with you- that is a very bad sign I think. Have you been to counselling together? We have been married for 9 years all of which have been SM mostly. Several "resets" but now its been 4 years. H had low T now treated and was sexually abused as a child by a priest. He told me about the abuse maybe 2 years into the marriage. He said he didn't known it had affect him. He has been in counseling for probably 50% of the marriage, just an estimate. I went with him a couple times to his therapist, but he has always said this was his issue. I saw a sex therapist, marriage counselor Monday and we are suppose to start couples therapy next Monday. I told him I needed him to go because I just can't live like this anymore. I have tried everything else: crying, talking, begging and pleading, ignoring, you name it. I am starting to hate myself and do not like what living like this for so long is turning me into. This awful pain and resentment feels like it is all consuming. Im not sure what has pushed me to the end of my rope, but I think it is my soul trying to self preservate. I guess I will give couples therapy a try and see how that goes. Im just not sure if I am able to let him back in time after time, its too painful.
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Post by ironhamster on Dec 7, 2017 21:07:06 GMT -5
rubyslippers, I went through an angry period as I took a look at my situation. Very angry. I felt betrayed, used, and worst of all, cheated out of years of joy I could never replace. Be careful how you handle this very real and raw emotion. You have every reason to be angry.
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Post by james on Dec 8, 2017 3:56:31 GMT -5
Don't worry, rubyslippers, you are sadly far from alone, and will find plenty of support here if you stick around. Welcome. Your husband won't discuss it with you- that is a very bad sign I think. Have you been to counselling together? We have been married for 9 years all of which have been SM mostly. Several "resets" but now its been 4 years. H had low T now treated and was sexually abused as a child by a priest. He told me about the abuse maybe 2 years into the marriage. He said he didn't known it had affect him. He has been in counseling for probably 50% of the marriage, just an estimate. I went with him a couple times to his therapist, but he has always said this was his issue. I saw a sex therapist, marriage counselor Monday and we are suppose to start couples therapy next Monday. I told him I needed him to go because I just can't live like this anymore. I have tried everything else: crying, talking, begging and pleading, ignoring, you name it. I am starting to hate myself and do not like what living like this for so long is turning me into. This awful pain and resentment feels like it is all consuming. Im not sure what has pushed me to the end of my rope, but I think it is my soul trying to self preservate. I guess I will give couples therapy a try and see how that goes. Im just not sure if I am able to let him back in time after time, its too painful. rubyslippers I am so sorry to read this. It made me sit at my desk with my head in my hands for a long time just overwhelmed at the damage that sexual abuse of children causes- not over months or years but decades, generations. I don't think that many here will disagree with me when I say that I don't think that there is the remotest chance that your situation is fixable, and your continuing to hope that it is will result in your gradual but inexorable soul-death. Do you have children or financial reasons to have to stay with your husband? If not, I suggest that you turn your thoughts to planning a gradual exit, or a 'negotiated "cheat"' strategy [ie I wouldn't cheat, necessarily, but would talk to husband about outsourcing]. Whichever works. But please don't stay, you deserve better. Your husband needs to find a more compatible partner. Sorry and hugs.
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Post by james on Dec 8, 2017 4:02:47 GMT -5
"You held my hand? So? What does that have to do with sex? Do you really think that holding my hand for a couple of minutes is supposed to take the place of a real sex life?" I know... Monday morning quarterbacking, but really. Why would she even try to posit hand-holding as a remedy for a sexless marriage? While I agree with this, it also sounds like your wife was at least attempting a first step. Yes, she reverted to using DARVO when she felt her action was rejected by you, and that’s something she needs to be made aware of, but the bigger issue is that if she was truly trying to take a first step with intimacy that could possibly lead to a “real sex life” then she needs to be better about communicating that to you. And similarly, james , if you really need to have a concrete talk about when you will have sex, pick a date on the calendar and lead up to it in intimate ways, then you need to be upfront with HER about that and what sort of clarity you need about actions leading to sex. DARVO aside I personally think she was trying to reach out to you (literally and figuratively) but if you didn’t know that’s what she was doing then how is it going to help? I think you both need to better communicate about it. But unlike csl I DO think it is an important step on the path to being sexual again. No, holding hands is not going to cure a SM and all the issues that come along with it, but how would you hope to start to work on this withOUT intimate aspects like this to connect you? After all this refusal you’re not just going to jump into bed together either and have it magically fix everything. choosinghappy, thank you for your comment. Yes, of course, you are right, she was trying to reach out to me, and it was mean of me to reject her advance. But it needs to be set in context. After the first few refusals (going back 10 years now), my response to her approach would have been totally different. But over time, the issue for me has been not so much that we don't have sex (though that is of course a big issue) but that she won't talk to me about it. I think I know why: if she took the time to talk to me, she would understand my pain a bit more and she would then feel that she had been put in a position where she had to do something about it. So long as we don't discuss, she is prepared to have just enough sex (6 times a year, maybe) to keep me quiet. So what I need from her is not actions like hand-holding, it is, weirdly, words. Followed by actions.
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Post by M2G on Dec 8, 2017 5:26:25 GMT -5
rubyslippers , I went through an angry period as I took a look at my situation. Very angry. I felt betrayed, used, and worst of all, cheated out of years of joy I could never replace. Be careful how you handle this very real and raw emotion. You have every reason to be angry. ..And anger, can be a very powerful thing. What? But everyone says anger is bad! We need to never be angry! Wrong - getting angry and acting like an asshole is bad - but getting angry and using that energy to do something positive can be truly rewarding. Anger can kill the butterflies in the stomach, clear one's head, bolster courage, and more. The trick is, to take the time to pull together what it is you want to say or do beforehand, and practice it so as not to come off with a foolish rant. Yet another article: www.spring.org.uk/2012/03/the-upside-of-anger-6-psychological-benefits-of-getting-mad.php
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 8, 2017 9:57:53 GMT -5
rubyslippers , I went through an angry period as I took a look at my situation. Very angry. I felt betrayed, used, and worst of all, cheated out of years of joy I could never replace. Be careful how you handle this very real and raw emotion. You have every reason to be angry. ..And anger, can be a very powerful thing. What? But everyone says anger is bad! We need to never be angry! Wrong - getting angry and acting like an asshole is bad - but getting angry and using that energy to do something positive can be truly rewarding. Anger can kill the butterflies in the stomach, clear one's head, bolster courage, and more. The trick is, to take the time to pull together what it is you want to say or do beforehand, and practice it so as not to come off with a foolish rant. Yet another article: www.spring.org.uk/2012/03/the-upside-of-anger-6-psychological-benefits-of-getting-mad.phpDon't think for a moment that a manipulative controller, a narcissist, won't use any anger you show and play it against you. It's like pouring blood in shark infested waters. (especially during these stressful holiday seasons)
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Post by wastedyears on Dec 8, 2017 13:44:54 GMT -5
I told him I needed him to go because I just can't live like this anymore. I have tried everything else: crying, talking, begging and pleading, ignoring, you name it. I am starting to hate myself and do not like what living like this for so long is turning me into. This awful pain and resentment feels like it is all consuming. Im not sure what has pushed me to the end of my rope, but I think it is my soul trying to self preservate. I guess I will give couples therapy a try and see how that goes. Im just not sure if I am able to let him back in time after time, its too painful. I'm so sorry that you feel this way. I have felt this way for years. Nobody wants to carry around bitterness and resentment all of the time. I know that you probably feel bad for your H and want to help him with his issues, but it will take years of therapy for him to get over it and you will continue to feel that way. My advice to you, if you don't have children, is to run as fast as you can. You have to look out for yourself and your own mental health. Good luck!!
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Post by wastedyears on Dec 8, 2017 13:46:38 GMT -5
rubyslippers , I went through an angry period as I took a look at my situation. Very angry. I felt betrayed, used, and worst of all, cheated out of years of joy I could never replace. Be careful how you handle this very real and raw emotion. You have every reason to be angry. Oh my gosh, yes! It is the feeling of being used that hurts me the most. I'm sure it's not intentional, but I can't stand that I feel like my H is using me.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 9, 2017 13:35:37 GMT -5
rubyslippers , I went through an angry period as I took a look at my situation. Very angry. I felt betrayed, used, and worst of all, cheated out of years of joy I could never replace. Be careful how you handle this very real and raw emotion. You have every reason to be angry. Oh my gosh, yes! It is the feeling of being used that hurts me the most. I'm sure it's not intentional, but I can't stand that I feel like my H is using me. Resentment. Knowing that irreplaceable years of life have been spent muted, lived to far less than their potential. And not just emotionally / romantically. But professionally and financially too, thanks to confidence that was robbed.
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Post by whuffo on Dec 10, 2017 15:13:06 GMT -5
Another question...My Darvo-master ex wife never once apologized to me for any matter of substance in our 20 years of marriage. It seems to me this might be a common denominator or perhaps I just had an exception. Thoughts? I'll let you know in the AM - upon returning home tonight without my wedding ring on, one would hope something should happen, good or ill... Completely agree. I don't think I've heard an apology from mine, quite possibly ever. But demand one from me? Pretty much daily basis. And hell to pay if I don't. And usually hell to pay anyway because I don't and she will ask me "don't you think you need to apologize?" doesn't matter how small or trivial the alleged infraction is, she needs a sincere, deep, heartfelt apology each and every time or we are headed straight to argumentville.
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