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Post by DryCreek on Nov 28, 2017 12:10:54 GMT -5
workingonit, your husband's reaction to the site strikes me as being more concerned about appearances and that his dirty laundry might be seen by someone who knows him. I.e., it's all about him. He should be more concerned with the content you're posting here that he refuses to listen to. Because if he was being a good spouse and heeding your concerns, you wouldn't be here in the first place. The truth is sometimes inconvenient. Hiding it does not change the facts.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 28, 2017 16:23:47 GMT -5
Isn't it interesting how two people can approach the same problem with two different scopes, and therefore come up with radically different emotions in response to the same set of facts.
It's incredibly common. Example: You express annoyance at the wet towel the other left on the floor this morning, while the other is annoyed that you chose to complain despite the other's being guilty of roughly zero prior wet-towel leavings in the entirety of your lives together. It's a matter of scope: You see a day, the other sees years.
Cases like these are when the seemingly impossible is possible: when both of you can be both right and wrong. Yes the wet towel leaving is wrong and taking exception to it is right- and fussing over a single negligent act by a considerate partner is wrong and taking exception to that is right.
Sadly this goes much deeper for the giver who has nothing left to give, compared to the taker who lives in a world of blaming others, and having things done one way,.... their way.
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Post by Dan on Nov 28, 2017 18:46:34 GMT -5
UPDATE: So, still no sex. Yeah... My narrative: ... I was determined to have a passionate, loving sex life with my h and I put time, energy, creativity and devotion into making that happen.... His narrative: ... he felt that deep down I was repulsed by him (another deep pattern). He felt that what I really wanted was to not be burdened by having sex with him. When he stopped having sex with me altogether he thought I would be happy about it. .... HERE is the interesting thing about this to me: You are "why-chasing", which is our lingo for the effort to figure things out: Why am I in this situation? What is the reason for my sexless marriage? Why won't my husband fuck me? The common wisdom here is: "Stop why-chasing. You won't find the answer." INTERESTINGLY -- you are the exception to the rule. It is an amazingly rare alignment of a) your loving patience, b) his trust and candor, and I'll suppose c) skill of the therapist that seems to have produced a REALLY good, complete, comprehensive answer to "why". This may be the singular occurrence of this so far on this forum! And, if not, what you actually got is certainly the clearest answer to that "why" imaginable. Congratulations! Here's the bad news, as you have already pointed out: it didn't really help. There is too much resentment under that bridge. So while your situation is an exception to the rule "No sense in why-chasing: you won't find an answer", it simply amends the rule to be: "No sense in why-chasing: in the unlikely event you find an answer, it is probably not going to (in and of itself) fix the problem.... or, frankly, even be that satisfying to finally 'know'."
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Post by workingonit on Nov 28, 2017 19:58:25 GMT -5
@dan Thanks for giving me the award!! (Bows graciously) But seriously I am afraid you are right. There is something amazing about seeing all of this though. It is gut wrenching work. I disagree with you though. For me the satisfaction is in knowing I am learning more and more about myself in this process. I agree about the odds though.
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Post by ggold on Nov 28, 2017 22:09:19 GMT -5
@workingonit I am so sorry for what you have been going through. Most of my 24 year marriage has been sexually unfulfilling. My husband and I have not had sexual anything in over 10 years. I, like you, have absolutely no desire for him. We are roommates and coparents at this stage in our lives. We attended a few divorce mediation sessions but stopped going. We cannot communicate about our issues at all outside of mediation. We just recently started to consolidate our debt. I will exit this marriage. I have a goal to at least be separated from him by next year and pray that I will obtain a full-time teaching job for next Sept. in order to increase my income and have benefits.
I wanted to let you know how what you are going through now differs from my own experience. You and your husband are going to therapy and he is making an effort. It seems as if he is "fighting" for you. Whether or not his efforts are sincere, only he knows. Will this save your marriage? Maybe. Maybe not. You most likely have a gut feeling about this. If anything, with the help of therapy you are both communicating. Your husband is also following through with trying to be more connected to you emotionally and physically. I completely understand how difficult this is for you. You cannot just turn your intimate feelings back on after being refused and disconnected for so many years.
My husband never fought for our marriage. He was made aware of my feelings about our SM many times. He would say he would change and nothing would happen. I flat out told him that I could not remain in this marriage if things remained as they were. We tried therapy one summer. He was never fully open with the therapist. He said he couldn't "pinpoint" what it was that caused him to shut down romantically with me. For a very brief period, we tried to "date" and hold hands. UGH...it was horrible. Once we stopped therapy, he thought we were ok and that there was hope for us. I still cannot understand how he felt this way. NOTHING changed between us. He made no effort. He didn't TRY at all. At that point, it wouldn't have made a difference if he did. It MAY have if he fought for US over 10 years ago. I am ready to move on.
I guess what I'm saying is that, even though it may be too late, you two are communicating through therapy and he is taking it all seriously. (At least is seems he is...again, only he knows what's going on in his head.)
Sending you lots of positive vibes!!
G
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Post by baza on Nov 28, 2017 22:16:21 GMT -5
Since reading your update, uncharitable old me still thinks he is running intellectual rings around you, and the counsellor for that matter. In fact, he'd probably be able to run intellectual rings around 90% of the population. He's good. Very good.
There's a lot of talk, but not a real lot of action.
His agenda still looks like preservation of an appearance of a happy marriage for public consumption.
Zipcode therapy still seems indicated here. Getting away from the source so you can objectively gather your thoughts would be of great value. Continuing to engage in intellectual theories is a game that he is way better than you, me, or anyone else.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 28, 2017 22:32:01 GMT -5
His narrative: I was experienced and he was not when we married and he felt intimidated. He could tell I was not satisfied and he did not know what to do. He felt that I was sexy and beautiful and he was lucky to be with me which made him feel timid and afraid of doing something wrong which made him passive (deep pattern in him for everything!). The more I tried to fix things the more he heard I was unhappy and the more paralyzed he became. He could tell I did not like sex with him and was constantly trying to integrate toys, techniques, etc in order to replace him because he felt that deep down I was repulsed by him (another deep pattern). He felt that what I really wanted was to not be burdened by having sex with him. When he stopped having sex with me altogether he thought I would be happy about it. When I would ask him to deal with his issues so we could have sex he would only hear again how fucked up he is and how much I think he is fucked up. It would paralyze him. He has a tremendous desire and love for me that he is now willing to figure out how to express. I told him last night I really don't see how we get past this. It is true that sex with him was disappointing to me in the past but I was willing to work on it. I was wiling to work on anything and was committed to being with him through everything. Now..... years of neglect have me having a hard time even being touched by him at all. He could tell, He felt intimidated. He didn't know what to do. He felt timid and afraid. He thought I was un-happy. He could tell I did not like sex with him. He felt deep down I was repulsed by him. Stopping altogether I would be happy about it. Simply "asking him to deal with his issues" all he would hear is how fucked up he is. ------------------------ WOW!! That has NPD written all over it! There is so much gas-lighting, deception, denial, blame, reversing, manipulation, control, hypocrisy, selfishness, going on there! Everything a marriage should not be! My head is drowning just reading it, imagine living with it for years! (actually-sadly- I/we can) Fortunately you and the therapists are seeing that all of this speculating, and telling you how you are feeling without ever communicating with you is not all your fault? There may be somethings that you don't openly share- no one's perfect- this sounds like someone who has an excuse, or a way to blame for everything. (manipulative control) Words are very powerful, and are not to be taken lightly, however, where are his actions? Sounds like you have submitted plenty with your actions. Him? not much? Actions my friend actions. This is where boundaries come in to play. Boundaries with consequences and limits. No more "miss giving wife". Look what it has gotten you? Time to pull the plug on allowing him to ramble on about how he's feeling. Feelings are very powerful, but when he uses them as a playing card to surpress any actions that might threaten his control? They soon become nothing more than a weapon, or lies in his hand. His 'issues" go much deeper. Beyond your power or commitment in marriage to have to take on at the price of abuse. Continue down the path "to heal thy self".
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Post by csl on Nov 29, 2017 22:10:50 GMT -5
One of my favorite speakers, professor/preacher Dr. Tony Campolo, used to tell how people would come into his office with terrible tales of being caught in quandries and being completely torn up by their anguish.
He tells of a man who came into his office and told him that, although he was a married man, he was in love with his secretary. Campolo said the the man, "Well, you've got three choices, going forward. First, you can divorce your wife and marry your secretary."
"Oh, Doc, I can't do that! I still love my wife."
"Well, then you're second option is to fire your secretary and cut off all contact with her, and be happy with your wife."
"Doc, you don't understand; my secretary is the love of my life! She's my soulmate!"
"Well, then," Campolo said, "your third option is to do what you are doing. Stay married and cheat on your wife."
"Oh, Doc, that's why I'm so miserable. I can't do that either."
Campolo finishes his story with this tough love. "Those are your three choice. It doesn't matter how or why you got here; here you are and you have three choices. And being a Baptist, I'll tell that only one of those three won't send you to Hell!"
Having told that story, let me say this workingonit; you and your husband have come to this moment. All the why's and wherefore's are there, but they don't ultimately matter. What does matter is your choice--action or inaction. Yes, he may have legitimate why's. But what matters is the not the words/why's of the past but the actions of the future.
You know that; make sure he knows that his two options are action or inaction, after which, you will exercise your option.
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Post by M2G on Nov 30, 2017 7:26:42 GMT -5
Jenm, on the positive side, at least you are getting your husband to engage in a discussion with you about your sex life. Not something I have ever managed with my wife, including in counselling sessions. On the negative side, I'm sorry but reading this it it is blindingly obvious that the two of you are not compatible, and that the situation is not fixable. Tremendous desire for you? Really? Yes, james after years and years of NOT engaging and being willing to even discuss it my h is suddenly very intensely engaged. It was a bit of a surprise to me, actually. He just WOKE UP one day and realized what I was saying and where we were heading. It has been about a month now. Now it feels like a process that can lead somewhere. I don't know if that somewhere is saving the marriage but I do know the work I am doing is real and will certainly lead to me being my most authentic self. That is why my W and I agreed that she won't come here, and I won't go to her online group. It will just stifle the recovery. I don't want to screw things up for both of us, especially now that we seem to be making some progress. If your H can't take the truth - that's just a product of his own insecurities and, unless he can come to grips with what's bothering YOU, and his part in that, he'll have a very hard time making any positive changes at all. Face it: it can really hurt, to hear about the pain one has caused; but one can't begin to heal until one can empathize, rather than live in denial. Like ironhamster said: "Man the fuck up."
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Post by M2G on Nov 30, 2017 7:33:29 GMT -5
PS: Like me, your H must accept one thing about this board, and that is this: You didn't have a problem because you came here workingonit , you came here because you had a problem.
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Post by h on Nov 30, 2017 7:40:51 GMT -5
PS: Like me, your H must accept one thing about this board, and that is this: You didn't have a problem because you came here workingonit , you came here because you had a problem. I'll second that! If he doesn't like you being here then Mr. workingonit should have been more concerned with meeting your needs and living up to his end of the marriage agreement. You being here is a direct result of his actions (or inactions) so he should wake up and take responsibility for forcing you to seek this place out.
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Post by brian on Nov 30, 2017 17:27:25 GMT -5
My roomie doesn’t really like me being here — I don’t much care. She can come here and read anything I post. I have been nothing but truthful with her. There are many things I have said here that she hasn’t heard from me, but not because I won’t tell her. She simply won’t engage or accept delivery. I am an open book, for the most part, but one must pick their battles. But she will never come here. She thinks all we’re interested in is sex. I firmly believe she is asexual, but she would never accept delivery of that message either.
As others have said, if they don’t like it, change. Otherwise, their opinion doesn’t much matter as we here are merely trying to preserve our sanity in a fucked up world that they helped create.
I accept my flaws. I accept my tole is things getting to where they are, but I’ll be damned if I will accept that I’m the one with the issues. As a couple, WE have issues. Now, what are WE going to do about it?
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Post by M2G on Nov 30, 2017 23:20:48 GMT -5
One more thing that occurred to me. If Mr W. was uncertain what to do, why didn't he simply ask: "what do you want me to do?" Experienced or not, that question (combined with the corresponding action) is a 99% winner. (Ladies please correct me if I'm wrong)
I think it's more the case of Mr W. indulging in fear and helplessness.
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Post by workingonit on Nov 30, 2017 23:33:44 GMT -5
One more thing that occurred to me. If Mr W. was uncertain what to do, why didn't he simply ask: "what do you want me to do?" Experienced or not, that question (combined with the corresponding action) is a 99% winner. (Ladies please correct me if I'm wrong) I think it's more the case of Mr W. indulging in fear and helplessness. This was actually my response to him! His insecurity around sex made the question impossible for him to ask.
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Post by workingonit on Nov 30, 2017 23:38:10 GMT -5
@ggold Thank you for your perspective and kudos for getting clarity on what you need. I feel like if my h were still ignoring the problem I would have that clarity too.
It is real. He is obsessed and having insights and changing behaviors. Will they last? IDK. I don't really think we can change 17 years of unhealthy patterns but he is trying. I am weary of this process.
I am doing my work. Taking one step at a time. Trying just to be present and honest with the process. We'll see what happens.
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