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Post by james on Nov 27, 2017 16:22:42 GMT -5
"Set aside the sexless or low-sex marriage for a moment. Consider a sexful marriage where there has been infidelity. Can the "betrayed spouse" ever forgive the "wandering spouse"? (Terms used in online infidelity discussions, often abbreviated BS and WS.) Well, it all depends on the couple and the situation and their shared goals. You can imagine cases where the WS stops the extra-marital activities, makes amends, and the BS forgives... and healing happens. But you can hardly fault a betrayed spouse who can't get over it... and the marriage ends. Too much hurt. No real way to repair the damage. NO MEANINGFUL WAY TO RESTORE THE TRUST." Interesting way of looking at SM. I agree but I don't think that my wife would. She would say that cheating is a million times worse than denying sex and would not see any equivalence at all. I have to declare that I had an emotional affair 7 years ago, roughly two years into SM and when my anger with the situation was probably at its peak - or maybe plateau would be a better word as it stayed at that point for quite a while. I very gradually slid into this relationship. There was a lot of stuff going on at the time including a house move which I was instigating and of which my wife was not in favour. Looking back I don't know how we got through it. Anyway, a couple of things about this: I am glad you put 'sexful' marriage in your piece above. I couldn't imagine cheating on a partner with whom I had a healthy sexual relationship. Cheating isn't right but maybe being in a SM is a mitigating factor. I was quite naive at the time, I didn't really know about emotional affairs. I thought I was being good by not having a physical relationship with this woman, even though I wanted to (see Brief Encounter). Turns out: I wasn't being good, I know that now. In fact my wife told me (she found out, needless to say) that an emotional affair was actually worse than a physical affair. Although she has subsequently undermined her position on this by repeatedly asking me to admit that in fact it was a physical affair (it wasn't). I do seriously regret this episode. Looking back, having the affair was a bad error of judgement and although the SM was already pretty well established by that point, and I was really, really pissed off at the time, having an affair did *not* help, in fact it was a total disaster. Not sure if any of this is relevant to anything but wanted to get it off my chest. Thanks for listening. PS Sorry I think Dan said this rather than jenm, having trouble quoting people!
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Post by workingonit on Nov 27, 2017 21:17:40 GMT -5
UPDATE: So, still no sex. Yeah...
But therapy is actually becoming very fruitful for both of us and that is helpful. We are working on our narratives of our sex life.
My narrative: Sex has always been passionless and he has always been intimidated by me. For the first few years of babies (I was pregnant after 2 weeks of marriage) and nursing I mostly avoided sex because it was not good and my body was overwhelmed with pregnancy and nursing. After that I was determined to have a passionate, loving sex life with my h and I put time, energy, creativity and devotion into making that happen. The sex became less and less and the affection, which was never as much as I needed, became less and less. Eight years ago all PIV sex stopped per his request and 3 years ago all sexual contact and affection stopped totally. I have tried to engage him multiple times and he has never wanted to engage until now when I am ready to discuss exit strategies.
His narrative: I was experienced and he was not when we married and he felt intimidated. He could tell I was not satisfied and he did not know what to do. He felt that I was sexy and beautiful and he was lucky to be with me which made him feel timid and afraid of doing something wrong which made him passive (deep pattern in him for everything!). The more I tried to fix things the more he heard I was unhappy and the more paralyzed he became. He could tell I did not like sex with him and was constantly trying to integrate toys, techniques, etc in order to replace him because he felt that deep down I was repulsed by him (another deep pattern). He felt that what I really wanted was to not be burdened by having sex with him. When he stopped having sex with me altogether he thought I would be happy about it. When I would ask him to deal with his issues so we could have sex he would only hear again how fucked up he is and how much I think he is fucked up. It would paralyze him. He has a tremendous desire and love for me that he is now willing to figure out how to express.
I told him last night I really don't see how we get past this. It is true that sex with him was disappointing to me in the past but I was willing to work on it. I was wiling to work on anything and was committed to being with him through everything. Now..... years of neglect have me having a hard time even being touched by him at all.
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Post by h on Nov 27, 2017 21:50:09 GMT -5
I'm interested in what the therapist has to say about all this. Is your H held to account for his neglecting you or is the therapist letting him off the hook?
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 27, 2017 21:57:04 GMT -5
"Sex has always been passionless and he has always been intimidated by me. For the first few years of babies (I was pregnant after 2 weeks of marriage) and nursing I mostly avoided sex because it was not good and my body was overwhelmed with pregnancy and nursing. After that I was determined to have a passionate, loving sex life with my h and I put time, energy, creativity and devotion into making that happen. "
Sounds like the 2 of you aren't compatible. You can't make someone love you the way you want. .... You can't change him.
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Post by workingonit on Nov 27, 2017 22:10:19 GMT -5
"Sex has always been passionless and he has always been intimidated by me. For the first few years of babies (I was pregnant after 2 weeks of marriage) and nursing I mostly avoided sex because it was not good and my body was overwhelmed with pregnancy and nursing. After that I was determined to have a passionate, loving sex life with my h and I put time, energy, creativity and devotion into making that happen. " Sounds like the 2 of you aren't compatible. You can't make someone love you the way you want. .... You can't change him. The new thought is that I cannot change me either. I feel like we are both coming to this realization.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 27, 2017 22:33:42 GMT -5
Deep patterns in him for everything. Sounds like an endless life of zero responsibility and always the other persons fault.An endless double bind for you. Remember the ripple affect. This will affect all other aspects of your marriage and in how the kids are raised and influenced.
Consider ending things as a better life for everyone. It takes an ending for a new beginning.
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 27, 2017 22:58:23 GMT -5
DARVO, anyone? Poor him? Never his fault? He needs a nice steaming hot cup of man-the-fuck-up.
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Post by workingonit on Nov 27, 2017 23:04:59 GMT -5
I'm interested in what the therapist has to say about all this. Is your H held to account for his neglecting you or is the therapist letting him off the hook? Our therapist is intense. He does not let either of us get away with anything. He really loves to push buttons to get to the deeper stuff. Very unconventional but he is someone we have known for years. Uf anything he is way tougher on my h than me.
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Post by james on Nov 28, 2017 4:16:02 GMT -5
His narrative: I was experienced and he was not when we married and he felt intimidated. He could tell I was not satisfied and he did not know what to do. He felt that I was sexy and beautiful and he was lucky to be with me which made him feel timid and afraid of doing something wrong which made him passive (deep pattern in him for everything!). The more I tried to fix things the more he heard I was unhappy and the more paralyzed he became. He could tell I did not like sex with him and was constantly trying to integrate toys, techniques, etc in order to replace him because he felt that deep down I was repulsed by him (another deep pattern). He felt that what I really wanted was to not be burdened by having sex with him. When he stopped having sex with me altogether he thought I would be happy about it. When I would ask him to deal with his issues so we could have sex he would only hear again how fucked up he is and how much I think he is fucked up. It would paralyze him. He has a tremendous desire and love for me that he is now willing to figure out how to express. Jenm, on the positive side, at least you are getting your husband to engage in a discussion with you about your sex life. Not something I have ever managed with my wife, including in counselling sessions. On the negative side, I'm sorry but reading this it it is blindingly obvious that the two of you are not compatible, and that the situation is not fixable. Tremendous desire for you? Really?
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Post by workingonit on Nov 28, 2017 8:41:18 GMT -5
So, a quick note on life: My h actually came to this board (he knows I am here) and read all my posts about him. Big fight ensued. *sigh*
He felt violated by the fact that I had used my name, real picture and identifying information about him. I agreed that was not fair to him. More on this later but that is why my name and photo are changed.
And he thinks you all are a bad influence on our marriage. I reminded him that until this group allowed me to express my deep anger and dissatisfaction he was not engaged in this process at all. If there is any hope for my marriage it is because of the work we are doing now, which is because I became empowered enough to feel that I could leave, which is directly a result of being a part of this group.
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Post by workingonit on Nov 28, 2017 8:44:28 GMT -5
His narrative: I was experienced and he was not when we married and he felt intimidated. He could tell I was not satisfied and he did not know what to do. He felt that I was sexy and beautiful and he was lucky to be with me which made him feel timid and afraid of doing something wrong which made him passive (deep pattern in him for everything!). The more I tried to fix things the more he heard I was unhappy and the more paralyzed he became. He could tell I did not like sex with him and was constantly trying to integrate toys, techniques, etc in order to replace him because he felt that deep down I was repulsed by him (another deep pattern). He felt that what I really wanted was to not be burdened by having sex with him. When he stopped having sex with me altogether he thought I would be happy about it. When I would ask him to deal with his issues so we could have sex he would only hear again how fucked up he is and how much I think he is fucked up. It would paralyze him. He has a tremendous desire and love for me that he is now willing to figure out how to express. Jenm, on the positive side, at least you are getting your husband to engage in a discussion with you about your sex life. Not something I have ever managed with my wife, including in counselling sessions. On the negative side, I'm sorry but reading this it it is blindingly obvious that the two of you are not compatible, and that the situation is not fixable. Tremendous desire for you? Really? Yes, james after years and years of NOT engaging and being willing to even discuss it my h is suddenly very intensely engaged. It was a bit of a surprise to me, actually. He just WOKE UP one day and realized what I was saying and where we were heading. It has been about a month now. Now it feels like a process that can lead somewhere. I don't know if that somewhere is saving the marriage but I do know the work I am doing is real and will certainly lead to me being my most authentic self.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 28, 2017 9:10:59 GMT -5
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Post by james on Nov 28, 2017 9:29:53 GMT -5
I’m really sorry you had a problem with your husband over your presence on this site. For many of us, certainly for me anyway, this feels like a secret place that I go to for support. I would *not* want my wife to know about it, I know she would hate that I was here. I agree with Greatcoastal. He has suddenly woken up because he realises the marriage is in great danger.
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Post by h on Nov 28, 2017 11:21:08 GMT -5
workingonit maybe it was a good thing he snooped. It lit a fire under him to take you more seriously.
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 28, 2017 11:37:46 GMT -5
I think he needs to take the situation seriously. It is not going to go away. He may get better, but he is never going to be the man @workingonit needed him to be all this time. He needs to take his wife's needs on as a concern.
His sexual prowess is no judgement on him, nor is hers. They are what they are, and neither are happy about it. He needs a partner that matches his desires, as does she.
It all goes back to those five choices, the same five we all choose from: 1) Stay, and be miserable. 2) Stay, and pressure your spouse to do things they don't want to do. 3) Stay, but meet your needs outside the marriage without permission. 4) Stay, but open the relationship officially with clear communication. 5) Leave, because you are not meeting each other's needs and it is the honest solution.
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