mathdoll
Junior Member
The light is getting brighter........
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Post by mathdoll on May 11, 2016 10:32:02 GMT -5
I posted this in a reply on another thread but I think that it deserves repeating.
In a SM we are systematically starved of the one thing that only our partner can provide while we are still married. If they were starving us of food, water or money would we stay?
There are several studies showing that if you keep babies fed, clean and safe but don't cuddle them or give them affection they grow up with severe development delays. Animal studies that involve depriving them of affection and social contact from birth show that being starved of this kind of attention causes major damage to cognition, socialisation and is linked to self harming and aggression. The message is that affection is a fundamental part of human experience and is a need like any other.
We are also modelling dysfunctional relationships to our children and perhaps condemning future generations to this kind of abuse. I am a product of a dysfunctional marriage and I am certain that it screwed me up. Anecdotal I know but lots of evidence supports the importance of childhood experiences in forming adult relationships.
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Post by LITW on May 11, 2016 14:11:28 GMT -5
Having reset sex with someone every two months and expecting them to be happy is like giving a person a single saltine every couple of days and claiming you aren't starving them.
If you truly loved someone, and you knew you were their ONLY sexual outlet, would that not make you want to be that for them as much as possible? It would me.
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Post by wewbwb on May 11, 2016 14:29:02 GMT -5
mathdoll - I'm not sure how anecdotal that is, there is a lot of theory's that support you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2016 10:16:13 GMT -5
 I just love it when they do research on things like this. As if we need statistics and science to tell us that humans need affection. You're absolutely right about childhood attachment affecting adult personality formation. I think many adults are walking wounded - we didn't get what we needed in baby/childhood so here we are, passing our pain to those around us. It's really sad. I know in my case, I swear I feel almost actual physical pain at the lack of affection and intimacy. When my kids were little, and were always on my hip, the lack of affection from refuser was easier to stomach. Now that kids are growing and naturally less in need of constant hands-on, I feel it more. I think loneliness is, in part, the human condition, but the worst kind of loneliness I have ever known is what I feel in my marriage when I am sitting right next to my refuser. Ouch. Very painful indeed.
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Post by darktippedrose on May 12, 2016 18:04:54 GMT -5
my husband always teased me about being the girl from the wrong side of the tracks because my mom was an alkie and an addict. He says he's his mother's child. He's actually a lot more like his dad than he'd like to admit.
his dad slept on the couch. he never really ssaw his parents being affectionate. His dad would run off on these escapades with women. He'd flirt with women right in front of him. no big deal.
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Post by petrushka on May 22, 2016 19:21:47 GMT -5
We are also modelling dysfunctional relationships to our children and perhaps condemning future generations to this kind of abuse. I am a product of a dysfunctional marriage and I am certain that it screwed me up. Anecdotal I know but lots of evidence supports the importance of childhood experiences in forming adult relationships. Hell yes. Been harping on about that for ages here and on EP. Yet, the ones who are using the kids as an excuse not to get a move on, out of a dysfunctional relationship, they just don't want to hear it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 21:58:54 GMT -5
We are also modelling dysfunctional relationships to our children and perhaps condemning future generations to this kind of abuse. I am a product of a dysfunctional marriage and I am certain that it screwed me up. Anecdotal I know but lots of evidence supports the importance of childhood experiences in forming adult relationships. Hell yes. Been harping on about that for ages here and on EP. Yet, the ones who are using the kids as an excuse not to get a move on, out of a dysfunctional relationship, they just don't want to hear it. If only it were that simple though. There is good, longitudinal research now showing that children from low-conflict marriages whose parents divorce actually end up with more mental health issues than those whose parents stay together in a low-conflict marriage. I've done my homework on this, and it is definitely one of the things that has kept me here. My marriage doesn't satisfy me, but there are no loud arguments, no yelling in front of the children, no physical abuse, and the children are extremely well cared for in our 2 parent household. They would survive divorce if/when I reach the end of my rope, but right now there isn't a compelling enough reason other than my own personal happiness, and I'm not saying that won't win out, just that a parent's own personal happiness sometimes has to take a back seat. Anyone with children can attest to that. I just want to point out that when you do have children, leaving is never, ever that simple. Marital dysfunction is a continuum. Only those at the extreme are the ones who ought to divorce to protect the children from said dysfunction. For the rest of us, there is no easy or pat answer. If there were, we wouldn't need this forum. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 22:00:31 GMT -5
FYI - that research is by Paul Amato out of Penn State.
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Post by baza on May 22, 2016 22:28:42 GMT -5
@ elle.
I am inclined to argue the case, that the vast majority of members here (and in the old EP group) when describing their dysfunctional marriage, actually DO describe "those at the extreme".
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The old EP group - and what I have thus far observed here - are very much the arse end of the dysfunctional marriage continuum.
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Post by unmatched on May 22, 2016 23:03:09 GMT -5
Paul Amato wrote an update recently to his original paper - you can read it here: hrcak.srce.hr/file/180281He said a number of interesting things about the divorce rate going up as a result of people's economic well-being improving and them being better able to seek happiness and fulfilment in their lives rather than just survival. With regards to children, he said that much of the assumed difference between divorced and non-divorced kids is spurious and comes as a result of other factors, but that there is a moderate negative influence overall. However he also said that the variability between children and between families is huge, and depends largely on how the parents divorce and what kind of life they are able to provide for the children afterwards (i.e. can they afford to keep their home and give their kids a good life, can the parents put their differences aside and put the kids first, etc. etc.) Also, I think it is very hard to measure the influence you are having on your kids' perceptions of marriage and relationships, and the effect this childhood learning will have on them as adults. So I suspect if there are negative effects of staying in a low-conflict but non-intimate marriage, they aren't going to show up in many studies. |
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Post by petrushka on May 23, 2016 3:42:37 GMT -5
Elle, there is a reason why there is a special offshoot of AlAnon that looks after children of alcoholics.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2016 8:17:23 GMT -5
Paul Amato wrote an update recently to his original paper - you can read it here: hrcak.srce.hr/file/180281He said a number of interesting things about the divorce rate going up as a result of people's economic well-being improving and them being better able to seek happiness and fulfilment in their lives rather than just survival. With regards to children, he said that much of the assumed difference between divorced and non-divorced kids is spurious and comes as a result of other factors, but that there is a moderate negative influence overall. However he also said that the variability between children and between families is huge, and depends largely on how the parents divorce and what kind of life they are able to provide for the children afterwards (i.e. can they afford to keep their home and give their kids a good life, can the parents put their differences aside and put the kids first, etc. etc.) Also, I think it is very hard to measure the influence you are having on your kids' perceptions of marriage and relationships, and the effect this childhood learning will have on them as adults. So I suspect if there are negative effects of staying in a low-conflict but non-intimate marriage, they aren't going to show up in many studies. Interesting article, thank you unmatched. He does say on p. 11 that while some of the results are spurious, others are causal. So I stand by my original view (and his) that children of divorce from low-conflict marriages will be harmed in some way by the divorce. However, I also agree with you that children who grow up in low-conflict marriages may be harmed as well. But, at that point, you are picking your poison. There are no easy answers, including when alcoholism is involved. (If my refuser were physically or verbally abusing my children - that would be a deal breaker. He is not however.) Life is full of harm. As parents, the instinct is to protect our children. However, life's greatest lessons only come through trial and tribulation. It is much too simple to say that by ending a dysfunctional marriage, the children will always benefit. Even if we disregard the above research, there are just too many factors to say that. It is up to the individuals to know best for their children. I will always keep my children out of serious, undeniable harm if it is in my power to prevent it. However, it isn't always that clear. I'm thinking now of the parable of the Chinese farmer whose horse runs away and all his neighbors say "That's bad luck, very bad luck." The farmer replies, "Maybe yes, maybe no." The next day, the farmer's horse returns bringing with it a wild horse and all the neighbors say "such good luck!" The farmer simply says, "Maybe yes, maybe no." The next day, the farmer's son tries to ride the wild horse but he falls off and breaks his leg. The neighbors again call "bad luck, bad luck" while the farmer again replies "Maybe yes, maybe no." A few days later, the army marches through town calling on all able-bodied young men to come and fight in the war. The farmer's son is spared and all the neighbors say "what good luck you have!" The farmer simply smiles and says, "Maybe yes, maybe no." There is a yin/yang to everything. A shadow and a light side. It's inescapable. And I will return to the Native American aphorism about 'being still until you are certain' as well as Carl Jung's 'the wound is the gift.' I have had some terrible things happen to me in life, as I am sure all of us have. But when I look back, I see the gifts in those things and how they have made me who I am today and I would not trade any of it now, even the darkest bits. As I've said, I won't knowingly throw my children under the bus, but I also won't run away from my dysfunctional marriage under the delusion that the kids will, for certain, benefit. To that I would say, "Maybe yes, maybe no." Sorry if any of this sounds snippy. I think I am feeling defensive. I mean it my reply in the spirit of discussion and not to offend anyone. Peace out. -Elle |
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Post by greatcoastal on May 23, 2016 11:07:39 GMT -5
No offense taken. Back on EP someone condemned divorce, labeling as " it destroys the family, children are scared for life". I asked for proof. I got opinions. I sent them three recent studies talking about the latest, newest resources that say divorce has become so engrained in our society, that children are learning to accept, cope, and deal with it much better than in the past. Give me some time to google it then list them. ( I'm still on the fence)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2016 13:09:37 GMT -5
No offense taken. Back on EP someone condemned divorce, labeling as " it destroys the family, children are scared for life". I asked for proof. I got opinions. I sent them three recent studies talking about the latest, newest resources that say divorce has become so engrained in our society, that children are learning to accept, cope, and deal with it much better than in the past. Give me some time to google it then list them. ( I'm still on the fence) And GC, even if you do find those articles, it won't change what I am saying. There is no definitive "right" answer in most cases. It will come down to what is right for you and your family. And even then, this begs the question - what does "right" mean? Is there only one "right?" I think the answer to that is a definite NO. There are many ways to go forward, none of them right or wrong per se, just the next best step for YOU, the best you have to offer at that moment with all of the information that you and *only you* have. For the record, I would never unilaterally condemn divorce. Divorce can be good in many cases, but it certainly isn't without its own set of problems and shouldn't be taken lightly. |
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Post by unmatched on May 23, 2016 17:22:15 GMT -5
There is a yin/yang to everything. A shadow and a light side. It's inescapable. And I will return to the Native American aphorism about 'being still until you are certain' as well as Carl Jung's 'the wound is the gift.' I have had some terrible things happen to me in life, as I am sure all of us have. But when I look back, I see the gifts in those things and how they have made me who I am today and I would not trade any of it now, even the darkest bits. As I've said, I won't knowingly throw my children under the bus, but I also won't run away from my dysfunctional marriage under the delusion that the kids will, for certain, benefit. To that I would say, "Maybe yes, maybe no." Sorry if any of this sounds snippy. I think I am feeling defensive. I mean it my reply in the spirit of discussion and not to offend anyone. Peace out. -Elle That wasn't at all snippy, it was very thoughtful, thank you. And I totally agree with you. I can see scenarios in which my son will be much better off after a divorce, and scenarios in which he declines and goes into himself and carries the scars for years. And there are so many variables and so many possible outcomes I don't think there is any way to really predict what is going to happen. I tend to take the 'being still until you are certain' approach a lot. I don't react quickly to things, and I find if I stay still my viewpoint will change from day to day. And yes, hopefully at some point it becomes clear. The downside of this is I also try and see things from different points of view and I tend to pick up on the views and feelings of people around me, so there is a danger of that certainty never happening. I think sometimes in life you do just have to make a choice and go for it without necessarily knowing it is indisputably right. |
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I just love it when they do research on things like this. As if we need statistics and science to tell us that humans need affection. You're absolutely right about childhood attachment affecting adult personality formation. I think many adults are walking wounded - we didn't get what we needed in baby/childhood so here we are, passing our pain to those around us. It's really sad. I know in my case, I swear I feel almost actual physical pain at the lack of affection and intimacy. When my kids were little, and were always on my hip, the lack of affection from refuser was easier to stomach. Now that kids are growing and naturally less in need of constant hands-on, I feel it more. I think loneliness is, in part, the human condition, but the worst kind of loneliness I have ever known is what I feel in my marriage when I am sitting right next to my refuser. Ouch. Very painful indeed.
