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Post by mescaline on Sept 28, 2017 3:07:09 GMT -5
Hello Folks, thought I'd better get the story of my SM down.
I've been with my wife for about 15 years now, we have two kids son (8 years) daughter (6 years). Sex life at the start of our relationship was great. We seemed to be on the same page in terms of frequency, what we did/didn't like and all that. SO after five years of fun I thought I'd pop the question, things stayed pretty much the same until she started wanting kids (to be fair I was pretty ambivalent, but figured it was what was expected and why not). Then with trying to conceive for 18 months, a miscarriage and all the associated trauma, sex felt mechanical, a means to an end as I understand it often does. Anyway, eventually my wife fell pregnant. She had very bad morning sickness (all through the day!) for pretty much the whole nine months, so our sex life suffered (disappeared), then breastfeeding apparently reduced libido significantly, so again nothing for a further six months. Then the one time we did have sex, she fell pregnant again! So the whole cycle started all over.
Anyway, after daughter was born, our sex life never really resumed. I tried to initiate but was rejected pretty much every time, when we did have sex it was on her terms. About three years ago I gave up trying, I told her this. Since then in 2015 we did it twice, 2016 - once, 2017 - twice. So that's where we are, why I'm here and wondering what the hell happened.
I have tried to fix things one way or another. I suggested counselling, but was rebuffed. I've tried to reduce my own sex drive through various methods - hormones, herbal, psychoactive substances, CBT and good old masturbation. I've been to counselling on my own to see if it was my problem. Nothing works permanently. I'm running out of options really.
Also, I'm worrying more and more about the impact this is having on our children. I actively avoid my wife when it's just me and her, I'm trying to view her purely as the mother of our children rather than as a sexual being in her own right. A kind of manufactured "Madonna/whore complex" if you will! Family time is fine, we don't argue, our focus is on the children, but it won't be long before they're old enough to see the cracks, and when we start talking in detail about adult relationships I'm really going to struggle. How do you tell your kids not to copy the marriage you're in? I know parents are supposed to be hypocritical, but to that extent?
At the moment though my wife is primary carer, I work and the household is financially dependent on me. The kids are settled at school, so any kind of separation would result in me moving out of our home. I can't afford to run two households big enough for me and my kids. So if I move out I would only see them during the day it would be crap for me, though I think they would cope fine.
Anyway, that's a brief synopsis of me. Make of it what you will!
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Post by baza on Sept 28, 2017 4:17:09 GMT -5
It reads pretty much like you are down to the business end of your options.
You either stay, stay and cheat, or leave. And they are all perfectly legitimate choices.
And at this moment, your choice is to stay.
Of course, any issue one deals with that involve a choice, information is critical so you can make a fully informed choice.
You already know what the staying choice means. You've been living it for 15 years so you don't need to research that option any further.
If you were to consult a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish how a divorce would shake out for you, you would then have at least some basic knowledge about that option. That of course does NOT mean that you would necessarily take that route, but as a perfectly legitimate option, it warrants fully checking out. In the interests` of making a fully informed choice.
The cheating option is also worthy of your consideration. (personally, I think this option causes more problems than it solves but that is just a personal opinion, it is a perfectly legitimate option too)
The key thing here is the necessity of making fully informed choice(s), and owning them.
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Post by ironhamster on Sept 28, 2017 4:18:42 GMT -5
Your kids are young. They don't need to know, now.
My eldest daughter just got married. I had to be a bit cryptic about how to explain to her that she did not have to put up with a marriage that was not working out, because she talks openly to her mother about everything. We had one epic and comical misunderstanding, but she does understand, now. I'm also figuring that softens the blow when I pull my parachute.
I don't like the word "cheating", but it is a word society has defined. I don't subscribe to what I do and plan to do as cheating. I was the one that was cheated. I've fulfilled my obligations to the marriage. My wife made a vow, "to have and to hold," and has only lived up to that in time of crisis. Sex under duress is not the kind of sex I want.
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Post by brian on Sept 28, 2017 5:35:06 GMT -5
Since you have suggested counselling, I am going to assume that you and your co-parent have discussed the issue... or at least have tried to discuss it. Have you tried to talk about having a FWB with her? Opening the marriage (for you) a little. Although it sounds a bit selfish to reject a two-way opening of the marriage (unless you want that), gently remind her that she is the one that has been refusing and that this is the only possible way you can see that maintains the household for the long term... unless she starts becoming a willing and active participant in maintaining the marital relationship.
It took me many years to reach the point of being able to lay that out to my roomie, because it took me that long to turn from "all affairs are bad" to "I just want someone to want to be with me". Did she agree to that? No, but it really got her thinking that this gig was coming to an end. She says that she's trying now (we've had sex once since then). It's a step forward (once in 5 months), but it's a far cry from fixed. So I continue to look for that FWB.
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Post by mescaline on Sept 28, 2017 7:10:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the quick responses everyone. Just read my original post back again and it seems a bit "matter of fact", I guess I've learnt to hide emotional content a fair bit. I'm worried about my wife, she has very low self esteem in both her abilities and her body. She shouldn't have, she's attractive and smart (we're in England and she holds a better University education than me). She won't talk to me, her friends, family or professionals about any of her personal problems and has a head-in-the-sand approach to the marital problems I've raised. If we separate I'm not sure what the impact would be. I'm tired though, I don't enjoy putting on a brave face, I've limited my life so much over the past three years to give her the space I thought she wanted. I no longer watch TV in the evenings, I go to bed early, get up early to avoid her and give her the opportunity to have a lie in every Saturday and Sunday (the only days I can get up and help with the kids). I spend too much time in the garage just avoiding being with her, and sharing a bed at night (if I'm awake when she comes up) is painful - there's no physical intimacy these days. I don't enjoy coming home from work. I'd love to be able to share my thoughts and feelings but it's probably too late for that as I've withdrawn following so many rejections. But I still love her, like a mug. Since you have suggested counselling, I am going to assume that you and your co-parent have discussed the issue... or at least have tried to discuss it. Have you tried to talk about having a FWB with her?
I have thought about outsourcing, but I would be very worried about falling for any new partner and end up leaving anyway. I'm not sure my view of sex is sufficiently compartmentalised to be able to do this. I have to say that I'm jealous of everyone who has made this work!
That means either stay or leave. For now I'm choosing to stay, selfishly so I can keep seeing my kids. As they get older I expect this will change, particularly taking your advice Baza:
"Of course, any issue one deals with that involve a choice, information is critical so you can make a fully informed choice."
I plan on getting as much information as possible over the near future. There is a lot of fear about the economic impact such a decision would have on my children, and it would be useful to know exactly what this would be. I know there are several options available to me, but making an enemy of my children's primary carer would be the worst course of action in my opinion.
Ironhamster - Thanks for your advice about the kids, I know it will need to be broached at some point hoping for that to be a while yet though. For what it's worth, I agree about "cheating" it's so much more nuanced and every case is different. Society does like a villain (or scapegoat) though so I can kind of see why it happens - doesn't make it right to oversimplify relationships this way of course.
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Post by mescaline on Sept 28, 2017 7:18:14 GMT -5
Wise words too Padgemi.
I try to be the best person I can be, and set a good example to the kids. It isn't always (rarely) easy, but they do provide the required incentive. Unfortunately, I do fall into some of the behaviours often highlighted as abusive - neglecting, unsupportive etc. however, I would qualify this by explaining that it isn't a deliberate calculated response. It is the result of my withdrawal from situations that are unpleasant and painful to me. From a rational point of view I can see it is probably counterproductive to our marriage, but from a personal perspective it keeps me sane.
I need to read 1984 again, get some tips on "doublethink" techniques...
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Post by iceman on Sept 28, 2017 9:02:42 GMT -5
Have you sat your wife down and had a serious talk about what's going on? Why she's no longer interested in sex and her take on how it's impacting your marriage. And your feelings as well. What your take is on the importance of sex from a personal perspective but also what it's doing to your marriage. You may have had the talk already but if you haven't you don't really know what's going on in her mind and some possible ways to deal with it. It will give you some clarity.
Now as a warning she may completely stonewall you and refuse to talk or tell you just can't deal with it. My wife did that. She just can't find it in herself to even address the problem. If she does that is a very big statement in itself and you have a much better idea where you are and can go from there to decide what you want/need to do. Deciding that may take years. There's so much to consider, especially with kids involved. I'm actively about 5 years in this sexless journey and still don't really know what I'm doing.
Good luck.
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 28, 2017 11:04:26 GMT -5
mescaline, talk to an attorney and find out what the future holds, even if you have no immediate plans to act. At 15 years, depending on jurisdiction, you are in the middle ground between cutoffs for mandatory alimony and alimony-for-life. The longer you suck it up and do the right thing, the more you fuck your own future. The reward for perseverance is an expectation that you must continue to provide despite leaving. It might steer your strategy to insist, for example, that she returns to the workforce and applies her advanced degree to some earning potential that exceeds yours. Maybe even to the extent of turning the tables where you are in a position to take a much more active role in childrearing.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Sept 28, 2017 11:45:48 GMT -5
mescaline Thanks for posting your story. In some respects very similar to mine. It reminded me of a point, where my wife suggested that she was worried about getting pregnant again and that this affected her enjoyment. So after 4 kids, it made sense to have a vasectomy. I thought we had a breakthrough. That sex would flourish once this obstacle was made to vanish. Alas, no. It was not to be in my case. Not sure if this has come up in your relationship. And maybe it would be different for you if getting pregnant again is a concern for her. But thought I'd share that anecdote with you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 11:57:54 GMT -5
mescaline said: "I have tried to fix things one way or another. I suggested counselling, but was rebuffed. I've tried to reduce my own sex drive through various methods - hormones, herbal, psychoactive substances, CBT and good old masturbation. I've been to counselling on my own to see if it was my problem. Nothing works permanently. I'm running out of options really." There is nothing wrong with you. You're normal and you don't need to be changed or fixed in any way.
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Post by tirefire on Sept 28, 2017 17:14:04 GMT -5
I did a double take when I read you took hormones to reduce your drive. You are normal and just stuck in a shit situation. I also have the kids in the picture so I understand. Things are complicated when you are living it. You came to the right place.
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Post by mescaline on Sept 28, 2017 23:48:39 GMT -5
Thanks again everyone.
Iceman - I have tried to talk to my wife about it, I got the usual excuses - too tired, stressed etc. understandable but no suggestions on how to change things. I started doing more chores, offered to take the kids out for the day so she could have some me time. The usual stuff suggested by forums. Recently she has said she's perimenopausal (at 38), and that this is normal. May be it is for her. I haven't pushed the issue to the n-th degree yet as I didn't want her to force herself to have a sexual relationship if she didn't want to.
Drycreek - I'm in England so slightly different rules here regarding spousal maintenance, however you're quite right. Most Lawyers here offer a free 30minutes initial consultation, so I'm going to start off down that route very soon. At least I'll know where I stand then. I have no problem paying child maintenance or supporting the family, but I need to be in a position to provide a home for me and the kids. At the moment I can't. My wife runs a small business from home and helps out at the kids school, she wanted to be able to stay-at-home until the kids went to secondary school. I was happy to do this and I feel strongly I shouldn't back out of this agreement. More so than actually getting a divorce! Weird, but true.
Daddeeo - Very similar! I had the snip a few years back and had exactly the same thoughts! I think I spent longer on the operating table than we have had sex in the intervening years! Seems a bit pointless in retrospect...
Smartkat and tirefire - Thank you, I know I'm normal. My Counsellor made that very clear. I thought I'd try anything to make things easier/happier for me. I thought the lack of sex was the only thing wrong with our marriage and if I could remove that element it would all fall in to place. Obviously I was wrong! We are friends, we have similar views and work well as parents, but the lust and laughter has died. Communication is shot to piecies, I wish with all my heart I could fix things, but over the years that hope is fading and I think I need to start some long term planning now.
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Post by lifeinwoodinville on Sept 29, 2017 0:58:59 GMT -5
I too have reached the point where I just avoid my wife. I just find something else to do in another part of the house. It's sad really. I know my kids know what's up, and they know that mom and dad don't get along so well. I am a schmuck for not doing what I need to do to get out.
I hope all the best for you. Don't be a schmuck like me and let your wife railroad you into stuff you don't want to do.
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 29, 2017 1:15:50 GMT -5
mescaline, thinking outside the box, nothing says your solution needs to look like anyone else's. My point is "when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging". If the outcome is inevitable, explore how you might not delay it but still play out the next few years for the kids as planned. Try to separate the two activities and find a solution to achieve both. Your indebtedness in the form of spousal maintenance will only increase, and every financial gain you make until then is cut in half - why do that if the outcome is a done deal? For example, there have been couples who divorced but still share the same roof. At least one who's passed through here is trying "birdsnesting" or somesuch, where the parents exchange homes on alternate weeks so the kids stay in one house. Don't just default to the usual solution.
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Post by mescaline on Sept 29, 2017 6:53:51 GMT -5
That's a very good point DryCreek, I'm often guilty of assuming the normal way is the easier/better/safer option, but I need to explore other avenues before settling for that. It may well be that my wife's business starts to take off (there is potential there) in which case the whole situation could switch anyway, but probably best to assume that financially the status quo we have at present will remain for the foreseeable.
Of course, this is completely ignoring the emotional and mental health side of the relationship break down and likely end. I may come back for some help on that soon.
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