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Post by sand5280 on May 10, 2016 15:09:23 GMT -5
No kindness or caring in that department, just a general "give me my space and leave me be, and we'll get along JUST FINE" attitude. It definitely eats me up, and most of the time I blame myself--- "of course! I'm ugly, moody, and an introvert, so why would anyone would to have sex with THAT???" But I know the answer... SHE did. At one time.
I will provide this, so that Flash gets a break for a day, it's his creation: flashjohn Please go to the Welcome section and read my post, "A Post about YOU."
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Post by theghostofwinterfell on May 10, 2016 16:42:54 GMT -5
Yeah I read that post yesterday, and it was such a nice way to be introduced to this forum. I havent participated in any forums since the heydays of Myspace, because ive had no interest whatsoever in such a thing. The only forum I participated in then was a Richmond city forum, nothing personal at all. But this forum here- I do beleive I need an outlet. When I told my wife I had talked to some friends about our problems, she was very upset and embarrassed about it, and asked me not to do that anymore. Fool I am, I respected her wishes for the most part. Johns introduction ALL ABOUT YOU made me want to open up more.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 16:55:34 GMT -5
theghostofwinterfell, do you have children? You sound to be EXACTLY where I was probably 10 years ago. I don't necessary disagree with most of the comments here, but I'm going to offer a little different perspective: You sound like you're falling into a bit of depression. That's understandable, but something's got to bounce you out of that. That would be my first concern. Couples Therapy: You can go if you want. Been there and done that. If you do it, do it well and keep an open mind. It will piss you off BIG TIME, just like the rest of the shit -- but worse. I'd be inclined to think that individual therapy would be better. You're the one with the problem. That's going against the grain, but it's true. Ask your wife. She's fine. I applaud your attitude toward your wife. Being a dick -- the natural response -- won't fix anything and won't make you feel any better. You're going to have to get your validation elsewhere. Regarding validation. I'd stop asking for sex or even talking about it. The whole thing puts your wife on edge and makes you mad, sad, and not a very fun fellow to live with. Like you've said, you've had the discussion a hundred times. I hate to say it, but you've become a nag at this point, and that's a difficult thing to deal with. If your wife wants to talk about sex -- initiate a conversation about sex -- then you've scored. If that happens -- and it won't -- be ready to be the most honest and thick skinned fellow you can muster. But apart from that, the next conversation you have about sex -- and it will be a very brief one -- will be when she asks you why the sheriff served her with divorce papers. Give it some thought. These discussions, all your dwelling, musing, and brooding are killing YOU, and they're accomplishing NOTHING but making whatever time you have with your wife and kids miserable. I was a miserable beast for the first 8 years of my marriage. ALL the stuff you talk about. And I got depressed. And I had an affair. Then I snapped out of it. I have kids and l like my life with them. Without all my brooding, demanding, and complaining -- and worst of all -- pleading, my wife is tolerable to live with. I haven't mentioned sex to her in 8 years. When it's time for me to go, I'll go. And we'll have our last conversation about sex, affection, and love. I have a pile of math homework to do tonight that my wife could never help them with.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 17:00:57 GMT -5
Point by point commentary on other posts:
On angryspartan's advice: Part of me wants to say it's petty, and might make you feel worse in the long run. Part of me wants to say, "The hell with taking the high road; I'm hurting, so they should be hurting too!" So, in my own situation, I did try depriving my refusing ex - of housework, cooking, and listening to him ramble.
It did make me feel better at first. But what it really did was make me realize that the love between us (not just the sex) was crumbling - if we were both in a frame of mind to want to take things away from each other.
On greatcoastal's advice: YES. Write things down.
That way, you have evidence. I love evidence, because it tells me that I am not just imagining things.
Also, regarding The Five Love Languages - on the whole, I think it's a very useful concept. If it had been written by a member of this group, though, it would go something like this:
Physical touch - If you don't have it, you're just friends. Words of affirmation - Good to have, in addition to the physical touch. Quality time - Good to have, in addition to the physical touch. Gifts - Nice, but not necessary. Acts of service - DO NOT CONTINUE DATING THIS PERSON. He or she needs to hire a maid, laundry service, chauffeur, yard guy, or whatever.
On Dan's advice: Every word of it is good. I understand that in general, having an affair (outsourcing) is considered worse than homicide, while withholding sex is not really considered grounds for divorce.
Well, IMHO, that needs to change. We are slowly starting to hear more about sexless marriages now and then....very slowly. Every so often somebody finds an article on Fakebook and posts it. This tells me that public opinion just might be changing....and people like us, groups like us, are on the forefront.
It's never easy to be one of the first people behind a shift in collective thinking. Look at everything gay people used to have to deal with. But today, everybody knows some gay people, and it's no big deal.
Maybe in 30 years, people will be able to openly talk about getting divorced because their spouse refused sex.
Which is a long, wordy way of saying - you ARE justified in ending your marriage if there is no sex. I don't care how good of a mother she is, how "nice" she is, how much your parents like her, etc.
First of all, YOU, not your family or friends, have to live with her 24/7. YOU, not they, are the one who is being expected to be monogamous and pretend to be happy.
Why do THEY get to decide if you should stay in the marriage, if you are the one doing all the work?
Also, as a certain "motherly" person from EP used to say: sex is the only thing that distinguishes a marriage or romantic love relationship from platonic friendship.
If your spouse won't go to movies with you, you're allowed to go to movies with other people.
If they won't go camping with you, you're allowed to go camping with other people.
But if they don't want to have sex, you're not allowed to have sex with anybody else.
Not only that, but you're supposed to be okay with no sex. It's "only" sex, so you shouldn't mind.
AFAIC, if you got caught outsourcing, it would be logical to say, "It's ONLY sex! What's the big deal?"
No - the situation between refusers and refusees is totally biased in favor of the refusers. So, it's time to make things more fair. You DO have a right to a sex life of your own choosing. When you got married, you promised monogamy - not celibacy.
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Post by angryspartan on May 10, 2016 17:09:38 GMT -5
Point by point commentary on other posts: On angryspartan's advice: Part of me wants to say it's petty, and might make you feel worse in the long run. Part of me wants to say, "The hell with taking the high road; I'm hurting, so they should be hurting too!" So, in my own situation, I did try depriving my refusing ex - of housework, cooking, and listening to him ramble. It did make me feel better at first. But what it really did was make me realize that the love between us (not just the sex) was crumbling - if we were both in a frame of mind to want to take things away from each other. On greatcoastal's advice: YES. Write things down. That way, you have evidence. I love evidence, because it tells me that I am not just imagining things. Also, regarding The Five Love Languages - on the whole, I think it's a very useful concept. If it had been written by a member of this group, though, it would go something like this: Physical touch - If you don't have it, you're just friends. Words of affirmation - Good to have, in addition to the physical touch. Quality time - Good to have, in addition to the physical touch. Gifts - Nice, but not necessary. Acts of service - DO NOT CONTINUE DATING THIS PERSON. He or she needs to hire a maid, laundry service, chauffeur, yard guy, or whatever. On Dan's advice: Every word of it is good. I understand that in general, having an affair (outsourcing) is considered worse than homicide, while withholding sex is not really considered grounds for divorce. Well, IMHO, that needs to change. We are slowly starting to hear more about sexless marriages now and then....very slowly. Every so often somebody finds an article on Fakebook and posts it. This tells me that public opinion just might be changing....and people like us, groups like us, are on the forefront. It's never easy to be one of the first people behind a shift in collective thinking. Look at everything gay people used to have to deal with. But today, everybody knows some gay people, and it's no big deal. Maybe in 30 years, people will be able to openly talk about getting divorced because their spouse refused sex. Which is a long, wordy way of saying - you ARE justified in ending your marriage if there is no sex. I don't care how good of a mother she is, how "nice" she is, how much your parents like her, etc. First of all, YOU, not your family or friends, have to live with her 24/7. YOU, not they, are the one who is being expected to be monogamous and pretend to be happy. Why do THEY get to decide if you should stay in the marriage, if you are the one doing all the work? Also, as a certain "motherly" person from EP used to say: sex is the only thing that distinguishes a marriage or romantic love relationship from platonic friendship. If your spouse won't go to movies with you, you're allowed to go to movies with other people. If they won't go camping with you, you're allowed to go camping with other people. But if they don't want to have sex, you're not allowed to have sex with anybody else. Not only that, but you're supposed to be okay with no sex. It's "only" sex, so you shouldn't mind. AFAIC, if you got caught outsourcing, it would be logical to say, "It's ONLY sex! What's the big deal?" No - the situation between refusers and refusees is totally biased in favor of the refusers. So, it's time to make things more fair. You DO have a right to a sex life of your own choosing. When you got married, you promised monogamy - not celibacy. Just to be clear, my advice seems like it's born out of pettiness, and I agree it appears that way, but it's a means to an end. I view it more as tough love than revenge or anything like that. For me, I had to react that way because if I saw her getting every, or the majority of her needs met, I would have despised her more than anything. I did it to grab her attention, and whenever the topic came up, I was able to tell her the actions she takes has a reaction by me. I know this isn't something that is going to work in every case, but I do believe in mine it did help significantly. She's not as much of a beast about sex and there has been a little healing, but we do have setbacks. Trust me, that wasn't the first option I took, I tried to do the things she said needed to be done to get a roll in the hay, but like everyone else, those attempts were not fruitful. My advice isn't a blueprint by any means, but I do think it can be an option depending on the 2 people involved. It's a nuclear option for sure and has to be handled just right.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 17:19:41 GMT -5
AFAIC, if you got caught outsourcing, it would be logical to say, "It's ONLY sex! What's the big deal?" No - the situation between refusers and refusees is totally biased in favor of the refusers. So, it's time to make things more fair. You DO have a right to a sex life of your own choosing. When you got married, you promised monogamy - not celibacy. YUP! "Sex? We're married! Marriage isn't about sex. I've never thought of you as having such a pedestrian attitude about it. It's 2016!" in my case, "What? Sex isn't our thing. You know that." I'd never even discuss it with her. I don't even talk about camping gear with non-campers. Wouldn't want to bore them. That last statement goes for a whole lot of evils -- maybe all of them. Mindless violence is the first thing to come to mind. I'm pissed again.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 17:22:59 GMT -5
Just to be clear, my advice seems like it's born out of pettiness, and I agree it appears that way, but it's a means to an end. I view it more as tough love than revenge or anything like that. For me, I had to react that way because if I saw her getting every, or the majority of her needs met, I would have despised her more than anything. I did it to grab her attention, and whenever the topic came up, I was able to tell her the actions she takes has a reaction by me. I know this isn't something that is going to work in every case, but I do believe in mine it did help significantly. She's not as much of a beast about sex and there has been a little healing, but we do have setbacks. Trust me, that wasn't the first option I took, I tried to do the things she said needed to be done to get a roll in the hay, but like everyone else, those attempts were not fruitful. My advice isn't a blueprint by any means, but I do think it can be an option depending on the 2 people involved. It's a nuclear option for sure and has to be handled just right. Sparatan, do you have sex with your wife? Has she improved? Is your situation unique?
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Post by theghostofwinterfell on May 10, 2016 17:31:49 GMT -5
Quote: Regarding validation. I'd stop asking for sex or even talking about it. The whole thing puts your wife on edge and makes you mad, sad, and not a very fun fellow to live with. Like you've said, you've had the discussion a hundred times. I hate to say it, but you've become a nag at this point, and that's a difficult thing to deal with. If your wife wants to talk about sex -- initiate a conversation about sex -- then you've scored. If that happens -- and it won't -- be ready to be the most honest and thick skinned fellow you can muster
Thank you- you are 100% correct. I stopped initiating or asking for sex about 3 years ago. We have had sex maybe 3 times since then, and talked about our SM maybe 5 times seriously.
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Post by angryspartan on May 10, 2016 17:35:20 GMT -5
Just to be clear, my advice seems like it's born out of pettiness, and I agree it appears that way, but it's a means to an end. I view it more as tough love than revenge or anything like that. For me, I had to react that way because if I saw her getting every, or the majority of her needs met, I would have despised her more than anything. I did it to grab her attention, and whenever the topic came up, I was able to tell her the actions she takes has a reaction by me. I know this isn't something that is going to work in every case, but I do believe in mine it did help significantly. She's not as much of a beast about sex and there has been a little healing, but we do have setbacks. Trust me, that wasn't the first option I took, I tried to do the things she said needed to be done to get a roll in the hay, but like everyone else, those attempts were not fruitful. My advice isn't a blueprint by any means, but I do think it can be an option depending on the 2 people involved. It's a nuclear option for sure and has to be handled just right. Sparatan, do you have sex with your wife? Has she improved? Is your situation unique? Yes, I'll expand more when I get a chance.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 17:51:18 GMT -5
Sparatan, do you have sex with your wife? Has she improved? Is your situation unique? Yes, I'll expand more when I get a chance. What's it like?
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 20:24:49 GMT -5
But this forum here- I do beleive I need an outlet. When I told my wife I had talked to some friends about our problems, she was very upset and embarrassed about it, and asked me not to do that anymore. Fool I am, I respected her wishes for the most part. Johns introduction ALL ABOUT YOU made me want to open up more. Oh that just irritates me beyond belief - "let me deny you a most basic human need and make you miserable, but don't reach out for support because it will embarrass ME and make ME look bad." Argh! I kept my secret for over a decade. Partly because he didn't want me discussing "our" problems with other people and partly because I found it humiliating to be a woman in a sexless marriage. The result of keeping my secret was to make me more and more isolated - I withdrew from friends and family, withdrew from my favorite activities. The secret just became too big to carry and all I knew to do was stay home and hide my misery. One night I was out with my sister and cousins and we were drinking and the whole horrible story came out. Their immediate and unwavering support was the very first step in my starting to heal. (It still took several years for me to be ready to leave my marriage.) If she doesn't want you to talk to friends and get support, well I'm sorry, but too bad. You have the right to seek support.
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Post by deleted on May 10, 2016 21:04:31 GMT -5
Here is my feedback. Do NOT ever make your happiness contingent on another person's happiness. You are doomed to fail miserably. Find some hobbies that you are passionate about. Think of things that bring you joy! When you start entering that dark place in your mind, think about that area of passion. Living in a sexless marriage really sucks, but minimizing the shitty moments will be a step in the right direction.
I have reached a point. My wife doesn't want to have sex. I'm collateral damage. That's okay. I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me. The last few times weren't that great. The psychological impact has effected my ability to perform. I could get handjobs, but I can do that myself. I've got a little over three years until my kids turn 18.
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Post by petrushka on May 10, 2016 22:11:32 GMT -5
Hmmm, she's got you well and truly on the hamsterwheel, doesn't she? Run, run, run little man. You'll never get to your destination (3rd base) never mind how hard you run.
I know it well, I've been there in two relationships, I'm not just taking the piss out of you.
I'll try to address a few suggestions by others. I think Dan is spot on about your cheating fantasy. I'd like to add that it's not about scoring points, not really, that won't help. I think "she broke her vows by fucking some other guy" is no better and no worse than "she broke the covenant by taking payment and not keeping her side of the deal". You paid for a car and you're not even getting a bicycle in exchange. A rusty roller-skate by the sounds of it.
I think your wife asking for "quality time" is a particularly insiduous manipulative con-job. You can do what you bloody like, she can always call "not quality enough".
While I have always been a proponent of the theory that counter-refusal is not productive, I am VERY much in favour of not doing things for an unresponsive partner any more. By that I mean: I clean the kitchen because I like a clean kitchen. I do the laundry because I want a clean overall. I do what I do around the place not because I hope that it will curry favour, but because I want to do it for ME. If she's not delivering, she can go jump in the river.
Seriously, that makes a big difference to your emotional state, even if nothing actually changes about what you appear to be doing. Make the kids' lunch as an expression of your caring for the kid, not to take a load of the refusing wife.
It picked me right up when things were an emotional shithole around here.
What Greatcoastal said about acts of service becoming mundane CAN be true. It will become true once you get taken for granted, once the acts get taken for granted. I made up my own marriage vows, in a civil ceremony. I promised my wife I'd always do my best to respect her, and to never take her for granted. I think she's learned something about the latter. It's 18 years for us now. It's rare that I get up before her, because I'm a nightowl and she's an early bird, but when I get up first, I take her a cup of coffee to the bed, and she lights up. Vice versa, when she brings a cup to my desk, which happens maybe every other month, I light up. But the first thing about that is: it only works when everybody is on board with this. I don't think Mrs. Winterfell would notice, in her snow-queen heart. At least not at this point in time.
I landed in the experienceproject back in '09. I was as miserable as I can be. I thought I was going nuts, because my wife was constantly accusing me of abusing her emotionally and bullying her and not paying her heed. Whereas I was running in the hamsterwheel trying to make her happy, which she always managed to deflect in one way or another. the quality time was always not quality enough. The presents were wrong. The dishes weren't washed right. you know ....
After gathering some comparative data in EP, I started talking to our friends to get feedback: was I losing my mind and turning into an abuser? They didn't think so, they thought she was being hyper-sensitive to even innocuous remarks by me. It was her power play.
So one day I sat her down, I told her that I was indescribably sad, because none of my needs were being met in this relationship. I was getting no affection, I was not being heard, no little pats in passing, no loving selfless acts of service that can lubricate a relationship, no sex, and I added in that I was sick and tired of the passive aggressive psycho games. She was most unhappy - but in a good way. For once she did not get defensive or passive aggressive (i.e. counter-attack -- because I had been very very careful to word everything in a way that it could not be construed as criticism or attack, I just pointed out all the stuff I was missing in my life and how it was making me very very sad -- no YOU DID, no YOU NEVER DO, no YOU ALWAYS) - and then I had to explain to her what passive aggressive is. Running away for days and shutting me out if something bothered her. Withdrawing ... (I left out the counter attacks at perceived criticism).
Well, she has really engaged with me - but I realize that I am very lucky in that, because she just didn't see what she was doing, I expect she was following the model of relationship that she had picked up from her parents. So all that stuff works much, much better now, although she honestly said she's not interested in sex any more, and, well, I am not interested in dead fish (duty)sex, so that's just not happening.
I'd like to add what no doubt others have said already: chasing the 'why' is fruitless. And I'd like to add also that hope is your enemy. Hoping that she will change, hoping that things will get better at some future time if only you carry on as you have been doing, that's just going to have you get deeper into the quicksand/quagmire. You need to 1) assess if you really want to try to get this fixed - if not, stick a fork in it and get on with getting a better life for yourself, never mind what 'they' might think about it. If 'they' are worth having as friends and family they will stand by you, whether they agree with you or not. If you do want to go on, then you have to get active 2) doing things in a way that they look after number one - and that is YOU, make sure of your own happiness since she is obviously not interested in doing that at the moment, and 3) laying out things clearly for her, so she can make a decision of how she wants to go on. If she doesn't want to engage in that process, then you basically have to realize that that is an answer too, and reassess point one.
That's how it's gone for me. Marriage one failed at the first hurdle (when she totalled my car in a head-on, I found I wished she'd actually gone and killed herself in the process, that was a bit of a wake up call, but essentially no different from your wish for a cheating wife -- the easy way 'out'). The final straw came not long after. This time round, it worked out differently. Oh, we still have the odd painful moment, but generally I have a good friend and partner living with me, albeit not a lover. It was my decision to keep the friend I have. I will have to take my passion elsewhere.
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Post by DryCreek on May 10, 2016 22:31:02 GMT -5
I have reached a point. My wife doesn't want to have sex. I'm collateral damage. That's okay. I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me. The last few times weren't that great. The psychological impact has effected my ability to perform. I could get handjobs, but I can do that myself. I've got a little over three years until my kids turn 18. In 3 years, you could be out, done, legally wrapped up, a long way toward healing, and enjoying the company of someone who loves to be with you and who enriches your life. Do you really think that shared custody in the meantime is that detrimental to the kids? They'll be driving by the time you could get a divorce finalized. Trust me - they don't spend a lot of time at home anyway after they have a license. Especially for the ones who drive, you could argue for primary custody, and they would still see Mom plenty. Or is it the financial hit from the child support? You realize while you're ducking that one, you're probably paying more to stay in a home with a cold bed. And digging a deeper hole for alimony. Your choice to stay is your own - I'm just challenging some common ideas around staying until the kids are 18. Cheers, DC
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Post by deleted on May 10, 2016 22:40:16 GMT -5
I dig. Thanks bro. You raise some great points.
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