|
|
Post by theghostofwinterfell on May 10, 2016 9:46:42 GMT -5
I posted this in the "Introduction" tab, but I wanted to re-post here for discussion (if anyone cares to discuss)... after re-reading what I wrote below, I wanted to clarify that when I say "SEX", I am talking not about intercourse, but I am talking about any affection including cuddling, kissing, or even nice long hugs.
I'm in deep with14 years of marriage, not all of them sexless. 3 to 4 years of true bliss-weekly or bi-weekly sex- gradually dwindling to monthly, then bimonthly... now we are at maybe once a year of very half-hearted sex that my wife is willing to put up with--- although at our current point, she has told me she is not interested in sex at all, and doesn't quite understand why I even want sex at all. She is truly kind and caring, except when it comes to affection- no kindness or caring in that department, just a general "give me my space and leave me be, and we'll get along JUST FINE" attitude. It definitely eats me up, and most of the time I blame myself--- "of course! I'm ugly, moody, and an introvert, so why would anyone would to have sex with THAT???" But I know the answer... SHE did. At one time. I think about an exit strategy all the time, but kids, mortgage and having a joint-everything makes splitting seem like a far-away fantasy. Then again, sex is a far-away fantasy at this point, so whats the difference???
I oftentimes fantasize (not in a good way) that I will catch her cheating---THEN I could have a clean get-away with no repercussions. But, she is not a cheater. Or even a bad person really- which is what makes this all the harder. OF COURSE she always tells me she loves me and calls me "baby" or "babe"--- and it really is more of a kick in the nuts each time. I have been trying for the last 5 months to live in the moment, and take her happiness where I can get it. And to not brood or dwell (too much) on my unhappiness and depression. But the act has worn very thin, and my depression is manifesting itself all over the place. I see no reason to be mean, or ugly, or belligerent towards her, but god knows I want to scream, or cry, or stay asleep each and every day.
|
|
|
|
Post by LITW on May 10, 2016 10:51:15 GMT -5
I confess... I have had the same fantasy that I will catch my wife cheating.
Welcome to the board ... you are among friends here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 12:44:31 GMT -5
I have had the same fantasy as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by angryspartan on May 10, 2016 12:47:41 GMT -5
I posted this in the "Introduction" tab, but I wanted to re-post here for discussion (if anyone cares to discuss)... after re-reading what I wrote below, I wanted to clarify that when I say "SEX", I am talking not about intercourse, but I am talking about any affection including cuddling, kissing, or even nice long hugs.
I'm in deep with14 years of marriage, not all of them sexless. 3 to 4 years of true bliss-weekly or bi-weekly sex- gradually dwindling to monthly, then bimonthly... now we are at maybe once a year of very half-hearted sex that my wife is willing to put up with--- although at our current point, she has told me she is not interested in sex at all, and doesn't quite understand why I even want sex at all. She is truly kind and caring, except when it comes to affection- no kindness or caring in that department, just a general "give me my space and leave me be, and we'll get along JUST FINE" attitude. It definitely eats me up, and most of the time I blame myself--- "of course! I'm ugly, moody, and an introvert, so why would anyone would to have sex with THAT???" But I know the answer... SHE did. At one time. I think about an exit strategy all the time, but kids, mortgage and having a joint-everything makes splitting seem like a far-away fantasy. Then again, sex is a far-away fantasy at this point, so whats the difference???
I oftentimes fantasize (not in a good way) that I will catch her cheating---THEN I could have a clean get-away with no repercussions. But, she is not a cheater. Or even a bad person really- which is what makes this all the harder. OF COURSE she always tells me she loves me and calls me "baby" or "babe"--- and it really is more of a kick in the nuts each time. I have been trying for the last 5 months to live in the moment, and take her happiness where I can get it. And to not brood or dwell (too much) on my unhappiness and depression. But the act has worn very thin, and my depression is manifesting itself all over the place. I see no reason to be mean, or ugly, or belligerent towards her, but god knows I want to scream, or cry, or stay asleep each and every day.
You have every reason to not be nice, especially if you've had the talk with her about this already. If you have, then that means she's willingly denying you something you've asked for and need. Do loving people do that to another? Do they allow another to suffer when it could be EASILY avoidable? What I've always suggested to people is to emotionally detach to a certain level, enough for their spouse to recognize the cold they're giving off, but not enough to make the house a war zone. It's not about giving revenge, rather it's about your marriage not being a one way transaction. It's about not being walked on. You wouldn't give a store money without getting something in return, so why should a relationship be any different? We enter into these relationships because we want something out of them, and when we are not getting something that very basic and important, the relationship loses one very large reason for it's genesis. So instead of giving the refuser their relationship "food," they will also be starved to a degree of something they need, which is often just emotional closeness. I know it sounds petty, but if you're going to get your point across to a selfish person(that is what the root of all this is), you have to make them lose something that they care about, otherwise you will get nowhere barring a miracle. If they don't feel a pinch, they will have 0 incentive to do what it takes to make the relationship healthy again. There are a few possible outcomes: They leave. They work to resolve the issue. Things go on as normal. |
|
|
|
Post by theghostofwinterfell on May 10, 2016 13:05:15 GMT -5
You have every reason to not be nice, especially if you've had the talk with her about this already. If you have, then that means she's willingly denying you something you've asked for and need. Do loving people do that to another? Do they allow another to suffer when it could be EASILY avoidable? What I've always suggested to people is to emotionally detach to a certain level, enough for their spouse to recognize the cold they're giving off, but not enough to make the house a war zone. It's not about giving revenge, rather it's about your marriage not being a one way transaction. It's about not being walked on. You wouldn't give a store money without getting something in return, so why should a relationship be any different? We enter into these relationships because we want something out of them, and when we are not getting something that very basic and important, the relationship loses one very large reason for it's genesis. So instead of giving the refuser their relationship "food," they will also be starved to a degree of something they need, which is often just emotional closeness. I know it sounds petty, but if you're going to get your point across to a selfish person(that is what the root of all this is), you have to make them lose something that they care about, otherwise you will get nowhere barring a miracle. If they don't feel a pinch, they will have 0 incentive to do what it takes to make the relationship healthy again. There are a few possible outcomes: They leave. They work to resolve the issue. Things go on as normal. Thanks for the reply- and I pretty much agree with you. That is kind of exactly what I've been NOT doing for the past 5 months, in hopes of being a more positive force around the house, and maybe catch her affections that way! ((back story---we have had discussions about this subject many times before. the last time was about 5 months ago, when she pointed out that when I'm detached, that is a definite turn-off. So, I tried to re-attach myself. She has been very receptive to my improved, forced-good moods, but it never translated to any affection at all. In fact, its all backfired instead.))
With tomorrow being our 14 year anniversary, we do have plans, but I have no expectations whatsoever, and further, last night she suggested we go to counseling. I responded that I was okay with that, but that our problem is a pretty easy one to fix, just between the two of us. She did not agree. She is laying a good portion of blame on me, her reasons being I was too pushy with affection (this was after we were in a sex and affection-filled relationship for years) and I wanted sex and affection too often- being affectionate twice a month is too often??? In all honesty, I would prefer to cuddle every night, and have sex at least twice a week, so I thought that twice a month would be a pretty good compromise- she did not agree. We fell into a trap of ask-and-be-rejected for a very long time, which put a lot of hurt on my shoulders, which I still can't get rid of. I plan to be brutally honest in counseling, but with me being a quiet introvert, and her being a well spoken, vocal extrovert, I can only foresee getting railroaded and rendered speechless.
|
|
|
|
Post by angryspartan on May 10, 2016 13:14:31 GMT -5
You have every reason to not be nice, especially if you've had the talk with her about this already. If you have, then that means she's willingly denying you something you've asked for and need. Do loving people do that to another? Do they allow another to suffer when it could be EASILY avoidable? What I've always suggested to people is to emotionally detach to a certain level, enough for their spouse to recognize the cold they're giving off, but not enough to make the house a war zone. It's not about giving revenge, rather it's about your marriage not being a one way transaction. It's about not being walked on. You wouldn't give a store money without getting something in return, so why should a relationship be any different? We enter into these relationships because we want something out of them, and when we are not getting something that very basic and important, the relationship loses one very large reason for it's genesis. So instead of giving the refuser their relationship "food," they will also be starved to a degree of something they need, which is often just emotional closeness. I know it sounds petty, but if you're going to get your point across to a selfish person(that is what the root of all this is), you have to make them lose something that they care about, otherwise you will get nowhere barring a miracle. If they don't feel a pinch, they will have 0 incentive to do what it takes to make the relationship healthy again. There are a few possible outcomes: They leave. They work to resolve the issue. Things go on as normal. Thanks for the reply- and I pretty much agree with you. That is kind of exactly what I've been NOT doing for the past 5 months, in hopes of being a more positive force around the house, and maybe catch her affections that way! ((back story---we have had discussions about this subject many times before. the last time was about 5 months ago, when she pointed out that when I'm detached, that is a definite turn-off. So, I tried to re-attach myself. She has been very receptive to my improved, forced-good moods, but it never translated to any affection at all. In fact, its all backfired instead.))
With tomorrow being our 14 year anniversary, we do have plans, but I have no expectations whatsoever, and further, last night she suggested we go to counseling. I responded that I was okay with that, but that our problem is a pretty easy one to fix, just between the two of us. She did not agree. She is laying a good portion of blame on me, her reasons being I was too pushy with affection (this was after we were in a sex and affection-filled relationship for years) and I wanted sex and affection too often- being affectionate twice a month is too often??? In all honesty, I would prefer to cuddle every night, and have sex at least twice a week, so I thought that twice a month would be a pretty good compromise- she did not agree. We fell into a trap of ask-and-be-rejected for a very long time, which put a lot of hurt on my shoulders, which I still can't get rid of. I plan to be brutally honest in counseling, but with me being a quiet introvert, and her being a well spoken, vocal extrovert, I can only foresee getting railroaded and rendered speechless.
classic refuser behavior. They all throw the blame back on you. "Do x and you'll get some" is their way of making you feel like it's your problem alone. And like 99% of us here, you feel for it(don't feel bad), but it's seems you've become wise to it which is the first step. If you have a talk again, ask her if she would be ok with you not providing a need for her because she needs it too much. There must be something you do that is of value to her. Ask her what would happen if she received that only when you felt like it with no guarantee that it will happen at all. Odd are she will demean your needs and elevate hers, but you will have the opportunity to illustrate her hypocrisy. Counseling isn't the worst idea. I hope it does help, but be careful, I've read stories about the counselor basically taking the refuser side. If that happens, then I suggest walking out. This is a hard part for you, but strength is the only thing that will give you a chance to resolve this issue. Of course you can't fix this, your wife has to decide to not want to live this life anymore, but you can giver her incentive. I'm not suggesting being a jerk, but stand fast and make her give the ground. btw, there are some here who might have different suggestions, which are also valid. My philosophy stems from my personal experience. While my marriage isn't great, the intimacy is much better than it has been in years. Had I not followed my own advice, I have no doubt it would have been any better than it was from the start. |
|
|
|
Post by 3000more on May 10, 2016 13:16:21 GMT -5
Welcome to the F*&cking shit hole club! The people are awesome, the fact that there's a club is all sorts of messed up and most would rather be in the "I have sex exactly how often and how I want it with the wonderful person I love and have built a life with" club.
Hopefully you'll feel better having a place to vent and discuss this "secret disability" we live with.
Welcome
|
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on May 10, 2016 13:32:03 GMT -5
Welcome!
Some advice on therapy.
Wright it down. Ask if you can read it.
Make it current. Okay to bring up past. A therapist is going to try to give you a new start. So the most recent current material is best.
Wright down quotes.
Feelings equal facts. Your feeling are true, that is a fact!
Put on your Teflon. Get ready to have to submit yourself to total rejection. Then you can say " I set up dinner, I took her to a movie, we went for a quiet walk together, I told her I want to be intimate with you, she agreed, then when it happened she says I am ------- pick a refuser statement, ( disrespectful)"
I found a book that was helpful.Boundaries in marriage. I learned what a manipulative controller is.
Use terms like " control, rejection, respect, dis-respectful, needs, intimacy not sex. Double bind, loose loose situation, leader, decision maker, authority"
A good question therapists use. To the wife what would you like him to do for you? Out comes the list, make dinner, buy me things, do the laundry, take the kids to school, pay the bills. Then to the husband, what would you like her to do for you? He says," well...there is that one time a week when she could have time for me, Fri. Night between 8 and 10. I would like to have sex" the wife rolls her eyes and says, " that's all he ever thinks about". He asked for one thing, she mentioned five. He asks for the one thing that the only person on the planet can give him, and she rejects it!
So even if you feel trampled, you can learn a lot about your situation and your spouse from it.
Keep us informed, hope it helps!
|
|
|
|
Post by theghostofwinterfell on May 10, 2016 13:40:28 GMT -5
Welcome! Some advice on therapy. Wright it down. Ask if you can read it. Make it current. Okay to bring up past. A therapist is going to try to give you a new start. So the most recent current material is best. Wright down quotes. Feelings equal facts. Your feeling are true, that is a fact! Put on your Teflon. Get ready to have to submit yourself to total rejection. Then you can say " I set up dinner, I took her to a movie, we went for a quiet walk together, I told her I want to be intimate with you, she agreed, then when it happened she says I am ------- pick a refuser statement, ( disrespectful)" I found a book that was helpful.Boundaries in marriage. I learned what a manipulative controller is. Use terms like " control, rejection, respect, dis-respectful, needs, intimacy not sex. Double bind, loose loose situation, leader, decision maker, authority" A good question therapists use. To the wife what would you like him to do for you? Out comes the list, make dinner, buy me things, do the laundry, take the kids to school, pay the bills. Then to the husband, what would you like her to do for you? He says," well...there is that one time a week when she could have time for me, Fri. Night between 8 and 10. I would like to have sex" the wife rolls her eyes and says, " that's all he ever thinks about". He asked for one thing, she mentioned five. He asks for the one thing that the only person on the planet can give him, and she rejects it! So even if you feel trampled, you can learn a lot about your situation and your spouse from it. Keep us informed, hope it helps! Great idea...writing it down. That I will definitely do. But geez, I feel even more like a chump at this point.... the wife in your scenario says "make dinner" (I do that almost every night, as well as breakfast for my daughter and pack her lunch every day and drop her off at school) "buy me things" (yes indeed- all of my money goes to the family, even my own personal spending money seems to go to the kids) "do the laundry" (I do that every week) "take the kids to school" (that has always been my job) "pay the bills" (yes indeed).
hey angryspartan- are these the things I should start refusing my wife? LOL
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan on May 10, 2016 13:56:36 GMT -5
Welcome to TCTNOWTBT: The Club That No One Wants To Belong To. Good intro post! This caught my eye: I oftentimes fantasize (not in a good way) that I will catch her cheating---THEN I could have a clean get-away with no repercussions. OK, first, you know that is twisted, right? OK, good. (Oh: and unlikely. If she is not interested in sex... why would she have sex outside the marriage?) Let me ask this: you say you want to "catch her cheating so you can 'escape' blameless". WHO are you expecting blame from? OK, well, you used the term "no repercussions". WHAT are the repercussions you are speaking of, and WHERE or WHO is dealing them out? I mean, her infidelity or not, you still have to a) incur the upfront expense of the divorce itself, b) learn to live on less income and stuff than you had as a couple, c) deal with emotional well-being of yourself and your children post-divorce. Aren't those repercussions the basically the same if she is "caught cheating" or not? It sounds to me like you are talking about dealing with the social repercussions from your family, friends, or faith community. THEY see you as a happy -- or at least viable -- couple. So you are letting THEM down? Is that what you are speaking of? It sounds like you want them to "agree" with you that "this divorce is justified". If that is where you are coming from (and I realize I may have it wrong), then I have some advice for them: f*ck off. No one knows what is going on in your marriage as well as you do. You don't need anyone else's permission or approval to get a divorce. (Not even your wife's, actually.) If I may continue on this line of thinking (and I realize I may have it wrong), it sounds like you are concerned that sexlessness is not a "valid" reason for getting a divorce. That's why you want her to be caught in infidelity... because THAT is a more traditionally "socially acceptable" reason. Is that the gist of this fantasy? Let me try to convince you how odd that is. In effect you would rather say: - My wife has a sex drive that I could not satisfy, so she went outside of the marriage. Shame on her! (Ignore the implications about my virility and manhood.)
than this: - I have a normal, healthy sex drive and my wife doesn't. I'm going to get a divorce instead of fooling around or suffering the rest of my life.
Hey: I DO see where you are coming from. I get that divorce is still frowned upon or even disparaged in some families and faith communities. But -- really -- try to flip your thinking on this. Why do you need any more of a reason for a divorce other than: "we are not compatible in the sex and intimacy department"?
|
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on May 10, 2016 14:00:20 GMT -5
Great idea...writing it down. That I will definitely do. But geez, I feel even more like a chump at this point.... the wife in your scenario says "make dinner" (I do that almost every night, as well as breakfast for my daughter and pack her lunch every day and drop her off at school) "buy me things" (yes indeed- all of my money goes to the family, even my own personal spending money seems to go to the kids) "do the laundry" (I do that every week) "take the kids to school" (that has always been my job) "pay the bills" (yes indeed).
hey angryspartan- are these the things I should start refusing my wife? LOL
I get it! Believe me, I get it! being a stay at home dad,homeschooler, for 17 yrs. One list I read to my wife and to the councilor was titled, "Things my wife has not done in a long, long time" it was three pages long listed single file. She took her typical stance and remained silent. if you ever read " the Five Love Languages" you will discover "acts of service" as one of your spouses highest love languages. However as many on here will testify, (and my therapist) acts of service quickly become mundane, and expected chores, that go unnoticed. While your love language is " touch" which a refuser has no need for, but is getting there " acts of service" answered all the time. But it will never be good enough. You will be labeled as " less than helpful"! Mention this one to the therapist. another sign is all the research you do for the " why" answer. Give up on that. Understand, this is not your fault, and continue on a path of taking ground, and finding your own joy! |
|
|
|
Post by theghostofwinterfell on May 10, 2016 14:13:24 GMT -5
if you ever read " the Five Love Languages" you will discover "acts of service" as one of your spouses highest love languages. However as many on here will testify, (and my therapist) acts of service quickly become mundane, and expected chores, that go unnoticed. While your love language is " touch" which a refuser has no need for, but is getting there " acts of service" answered all the time. But it will never be good enough. You will be labeled as " less than helpful"! Mention this one to the therapist. another sign is all the research you do for the " why" answer. Give up on that. Understand, this is not your fault, and continue on a path of taking ground, and finding your own joy! I haven't read it, but I am familiar with the concept. Her love language is "quality time". Which is odd to me...we do go on dates, and spend time together, so I am not sure what more I can do in this department???
The thing that frustrates me, and makes me angry at her, is that I DO try, and I am sacrificing to the point of poverty. She does not give much, other than being a great mom to our daughter.
|
|
|
|
Post by theghostofwinterfell on May 10, 2016 14:20:49 GMT -5
If I may continue on this line of thinking (and I realize I may have it wrong), it sounds like you are concerned that sexlessness is not a "valid" reason for getting a divorce. That's why you want her to be caught in infidelity... because THAT is a more traditionally "socially acceptable" reason. Is that the gist of this fantasy?Let me try to convince you how odd that is. In effect you would rather say: - My wife has a sex drive that I could not satisfy, so she went outside of the marriage. Shame on her! (Ignore the implications about my virility and manhood.)
than this: - I have a normal, healthy sex drive and my wife doesn't. I'm going to get a divorce instead of fooling around or suffering the rest of my life.
Hey: I DO see where you are coming from. I get that divorce is still frowned upon or even disparaged in some families and faith communities. But -- really -- try to flip your thinking on this. Why do you need any more of a reason for a divorce other than: "we are not compatible in the sex and intimacy department"?
Yes, you got it. What I put in bold pretty close Dan. But, In this "fantasy", there is no disputing, there is no argument, there is no "trying to win one another back"- it is just black and white. She cheated; I'm out. In my fantasy, it is so simple, and I am the good guy, and she's the villain, and I get the house, and I can refuse to talk to her the rest of my life. Easy, right??? In reality, a divorce would be very messy, and complicated, and a lot of new decision to make together (even though you would be "apart", when you have kids, inevitably you will have to face one another again many, many times). I DO know this is odd, but this is just how my brain is working. |
|
|
|
Post by angryspartan on May 10, 2016 14:44:32 GMT -5
Welcome! Some advice on therapy. Wright it down. Ask if you can read it. Make it current. Okay to bring up past. A therapist is going to try to give you a new start. So the most recent current material is best. Wright down quotes. Feelings equal facts. Your feeling are true, that is a fact! Put on your Teflon. Get ready to have to submit yourself to total rejection. Then you can say " I set up dinner, I took her to a movie, we went for a quiet walk together, I told her I want to be intimate with you, she agreed, then when it happened she says I am ------- pick a refuser statement, ( disrespectful)" I found a book that was helpful.Boundaries in marriage. I learned what a manipulative controller is. Use terms like " control, rejection, respect, dis-respectful, needs, intimacy not sex. Double bind, loose loose situation, leader, decision maker, authority" A good question therapists use. To the wife what would you like him to do for you? Out comes the list, make dinner, buy me things, do the laundry, take the kids to school, pay the bills. Then to the husband, what would you like her to do for you? He says," well...there is that one time a week when she could have time for me, Fri. Night between 8 and 10. I would like to have sex" the wife rolls her eyes and says, " that's all he ever thinks about". He asked for one thing, she mentioned five. He asks for the one thing that the only person on the planet can give him, and she rejects it! So even if you feel trampled, you can learn a lot about your situation and your spouse from it. Keep us informed, hope it helps! Great idea...writing it down. That I will definitely do. But geez, I feel even more like a chump at this point.... the wife in your scenario says "make dinner" (I do that almost every night, as well as breakfast for my daughter and pack her lunch every day and drop her off at school) "buy me things" (yes indeed- all of my money goes to the family, even my own personal spending money seems to go to the kids) "do the laundry" (I do that every week) "take the kids to school" (that has always been my job) "pay the bills" (yes indeed).
hey angryspartan- are these the things I should start refusing my wife? LOL
hahah that would be the "making house into a warzone." However I did at one time tell my wife early on that I was on "strike" due to her refusals. I went for a couple weeks not helping with cleaning etc. Made life hard, but i'd do it again. |
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on May 10, 2016 14:53:30 GMT -5
I haven't read it, but I am familiar with the concept. Her love language is "quality time". Which is odd to me...we do go on dates, and spend time together, so I am not sure what more I can do in this department???
The thing that frustrates me, and makes me angry at her, is that I DO try, and I am sacrificing to the point of poverty. She does not give much, other than being a great mom to our daughter.
Same thing about " quality time" or " gifts" they become mundane, expected, boring.even when you " step thing up a notch" you are not receiving. Marriage is not agape love. Like you show a stranger who falls off a bike. marriage is a covenant, an agreement. A give and take situation. As many of us know refusers are experts at taking, and very poor at giving when it comes to marriage. time to start taking. There is nothing wrong with that. Caring for your own heart isn't selfishness; it's how we begin to love. Yes, we care for our hearts for the sake of others. Does that sound like a contradiction? Not at all. What will you bring to others if your heart is empty, dried up , pinned down? Love is the point. And you can't love without your heart, and you can't love well unless your heart is well. When it comes to the whole subject of loving others, you must know this: how you handle your own heart is how you will handle theirs. I like this a lot ( wish they would post it on the front page) |
|
