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Post by smilin61 on May 9, 2016 22:54:12 GMT -5
I found this piece I'd posted over on EP and thought it worth sharing again. Hard to believe I wrote this almost 5 years ago.
Posted: November 10, 2011 10:02 by smilin61
Do You Miss Intimacy More Than Sex?... A friend said something to me a few weeks ago that really got me thinking about intimacy. He said that sex is everywhere- if you truly wanted to just have sex- you could find it. At first I thought- noooo, because I DO want to have sex..every day! Then I began to think about it rationally and discovered he was right. If I wanted one-time anonymous sex, there are plenty of ways to find that. A bit too risky for me and unfulfilling, but it would scratch the itch. Then, I thought, if I wanted sex with someone I care about, know and trust, this is also very do-able. I could call any number of male friends who would be happy to accommodate me today! No risk involved, mutual physical satisfaction and our friendship would still be solid. So why have I not done this?
What is missing is the emotional intimacy, the desire to be closer, to know more, to share everything. Obviously for me sex isn't just a physical act then. I want to be free to express myself fully and explore my partners desires, and for me this requires an intimate relationship. I began reading about emotional intimacy and found some very interesting and telling articles that I sincerely wish I had read YEARS ago.
Here are a few snippits: Laurie Pawlik-Kienlen - " Emotional intimacy involves talking about who you are, what you need, and expressing yourself honestly. Creating emotional intimacy when you're in love takes time and effort, especially if you've been hurt in the past. When you're truly intimate with your partner you can talk about who you really are, say what you need and want, and be heard by him/her. Emotionally intimate relationships have a sense of mutuality, which means you're as concerned with your partners satisfaction and happiness as with your own. You want to see your partner emotionally, intellectually, socially, physically and professionally fulfilled. Creating intimacy doesn't mean you'll make all that happen, of course, but your partners satisfaction is equally important to you. Intimacy is the freedom to be yourself. Creating emotional intimacy is expressing yourself more and more in your relationship. Emotionally intimate relationships are risky for several reasons (which is why some people are afraid of intimacy). When you're trying to create intimacy, you could be: Misunderstood- Rejected- Ridiculed - Faced with the fact that you're with the wrong person."
OK. WOW. That last one on the list hit me like a ton of bricks. So, since I have obviously chosen a spouse who is not capable of this type of intimate relationship- and it is clearly what I need- what now? Now comes the hard work. I will share these articles with him and tell him that this is what I need in a relationship. I have known ours wasn't a good marriage for awhile, and I think this will be the beginning of the end for him. I will continue my path of honesty and being genuine, I am learning each day and growing stronger in being able to express what I need and want. And just as importantly, I have a clearer understanding of what I want and how to get there from here. One baby step at a time... |
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Post by wewbwb on May 10, 2016 8:28:49 GMT -5
I see that you are right. It would appear that I made the same mistakes.
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Post by smilin61 on May 10, 2016 11:50:09 GMT -5
I see that you are right. It would appear that I made the same mistakes. *SIGH* The club that NO ONE wants to belong to.
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Post by petrushka on May 10, 2016 13:38:06 GMT -5
<nods vigorously>
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Post by greatcoastal on May 10, 2016 14:34:21 GMT -5
Then I began to think about it rationally and discovered he was right. If I wanted one-time anonymous sex, there are plenty of ways to find that. A bit too risky for me and unfulfilling, but it would scratch the itch. Then, I thought, if I wanted sex with someone I care about, know and trust, this is also very do-able. I could call any number of male friends who would be happy to accommodate me today! No risk involved, mutual physical satisfaction and our friendship would still be solid. So why have I not done this?
Emotionally intimate relationships are risky for several reasons (which is why some people are afraid of intimacy). When you're trying to create intimacy, you could be: Misunderstood- Rejected- Ridiculed - Faced with the fact that you're with the wrong person."
You are one smart kookie! You speak so well, very well stated! Bravo! Don't want to high jack anything, ( doubt it will happen) but I want to comment personally on this part. ( hope it helps someone else too!) I have no idea where to go to get my " itch scratched". Okay 26 yrs ago when I was living on the road, a lot lizard would knock on my door. I don't know if those even exists anymore ,and there are cameras everywhere! i don't want to get into the women have it easier than men debate. I do have a number of female friends to call, and none of them would be willing to accommodate. And I don't blame them! I am still married with six kids and unemployed. Plus whenever I hear from them it's me saying," how can I help you, what do you need". that goes along with being a married, clean as fresh snow, really nice guy, the one who listens to all your problems, paints your walls, moves your furniture, cuts your grass, watches your kids. While your with some other guy who you think isn't treating you right, but she has sex with him. |
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Post by Rhapsodee on May 12, 2016 10:47:51 GMT -5
Intimacy is what I thought I had with my hub. He does all the right things, he hugs me often, he kisses me three times a day, he tells me when I look nice, he says "I love you" every day, he massages my aches, holds me when I cry, and talks to me about everything in his world. It's empty. I am not allowed to request anything that he does not freely give. To do so would be "making demands". "See all that I give you, you should be happy." I am Nora in "A Doll's House"
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Post by TMD on May 12, 2016 10:57:57 GMT -5
Intimacy is what I thought I had with my hub. He does all the right things, he hugs me often, he kisses me three times a day, he tells me when I look nice, he says "I love you" every day, he massages my aches, holds me when I cry, and talks to me about everything in his world. It's empty. I am not allowed to request anything that he does not freely give. To do so would be "making demands". "See all that I give you, you should be happy." I am Nora in "A Doll's House" I know you know this already, rhapsodee, that what you describe is not intimacy. I would say that I had what you had with my Roommate at one time too. I get achy hands, and he'd give them a massage. Etc. However, I think intimacy is more than what's described. It's the look they give you. The words they use. The way the pass you in the kitchen, touching you gently. It creates a hunger that begs to be satisfied; a connection, when fulfilled, deepens what we know about intimacy. I'll take intimacy. EVERY day please. |
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Post by timeforliving2 on May 12, 2016 17:11:00 GMT -5
Intimacy is what I thought I had with my hub. He does all the right things, he hugs me often, he kisses me three times a day, he tells me when I look nice, he says "I love you" every day, he massages my aches, holds me when I cry, and talks to me about everything in his world. It's empty. I am not allowed to request anything that he does not freely give. To do so would be "making demands". "See all that I give you, you should be happy." I am Nora in "A Doll's House" Rhapsodee.... So it's kind of like the phrase: "Don't call me, I'll call you." Your hub is saying: "Don't touch me, I'll touch you." TL2 |
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Post by Rhapsodee on May 12, 2016 18:25:27 GMT -5
Intimacy is what I thought I had with my hub. He does all the right things, he hugs me often, he kisses me three times a day, he tells me when I look nice, he says "I love you" every day, he massages my aches, holds me when I cry, and talks to me about everything in his world. It's empty. I am not allowed to request anything that he does not freely give. To do so would be "making demands". "See all that I give you, you should be happy." I am Nora in "A Doll's House" Rhapsodee.... So it's kind of like the phrase: "Don't call me, I'll call you." Your hub is saying: "Don't touch me, I'll touch you." TL2 You've got it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2016 18:27:07 GMT -5
I sometimes feel that our lack of intimacy was partly my fault. When the sex started to become rarer and rarer, I became angry at him for not doing anything to help turn things around. So I felt less and less like giving him the intimacy things, such as actively listening to him.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I'll always feel sort of bad about my own part in the disintegration of that relationship.
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Post by obobfla on May 12, 2016 20:36:45 GMT -5
Right now, intimacy is my greatest need. To me, it is a recognition of who I am and what I desire. I miss it so much more than sex. One of the biggest problems with my wife's mental illness is that she seems incapable of perceiving any nonverbal communication. I remember when she would come up and kiss me on the mouth, and I would get mad at her. Why? I was chewing food at the time and not even looking at her. I tried to explain, and she said she understood. But then she forgets.
We have no small talk anymore. I try to talk about music or movies, but she could care less. I tried going out dancing with her, but she would not move with me. At times, I feel like she doesn't realize I am here or try to see how I am feeling or what I am thinking. It's not that she doesn't care. It's that she seems incapable of caring. I realize it's her illness, but I wish she would try harder to fight her illness. I suffer from depression, and I battle mine every day. Yes, she is sick, and it's not her fault. But she doesn't fight it.
I look at this way - it's not your fault if you have a cold. But it is your responsibility to wipe the snot from your nose and not cough and sneeze on other people.
My wife is schizo-affective with lots of paranoia. With her, a small problem becomes a major crisis. She used to have delusions, but the medicine stopped those voices. Now she just sits and worries. She has no room in her life for anyone else's thoughts or needs.
I could write forever on the subject, but the bottom line is I miss connecting with an adult woman. The best thing about the affairs I had was not the sex. It was that these two women recognized me as an attractive man. I was never much of a dancer, but I would love to go out dancing just to feel a woman move in time with me. I need to talk, to flirt, and to laugh with someone. I need to be acknowledged.
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Post by obobfla on May 12, 2016 20:46:06 GMT -5
Let me add a song by my favorite songwriter, Lucinda Williams
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Post by Dan on May 12, 2016 22:58:35 GMT -5
"Emotional intimacy involves talking about who you are, what you need, and expressing yourself honestly. Creating emotional intimacy when you're in love takes time and effort, especially if you've been hurt in the past. When you're truly intimate with your partner you can talk about who you really are, say what you need and want, and be heard by him/her. Emotionally intimate relationships have a sense of mutuality, which means you're as concerned with your partners satisfaction and happiness as with your own."
This is SPOT ON. I learned this during (and after) my "big affair" -- which is my shorthand for "the one AP of mine who I really fell in love with, and fell hard". (This was 10 years ago, and lasted about a year.) We had such a CONNECTION. I could tell her ANYTHING about me... with NO FEAR. I was "strong enough to be her man". The sex drew us into the relationship, but it became so much more. If I ever had this type of intimacy with my wife (I once thought I did, but now I'm not so sure), it is gone now. I hide behind my mask. I know her too well; I know if I show my deepest desires, they will generally get met with disdain. How do I know? Because when I hint at them in small ways, I get a dose of that disapproval. So why would I show my desires fully? Hide behind the mask she has helped me craft. Play it safe. Keep the peace. I have found being "on the Internet" (both when seeking a side-relationship, and in self-help groups like this and EP) to be ENORMOUSLY fulfilling... because I have learned to not be afraid to "be the true me". If that "true me" jives with someone and they dig me for it... GREAT. And if they don't: no harm, no foul. I'm not expecting to be everybody's friend. Anyway, the sex and intimacy is gone in my marriage. I miss both, but intimacy probably more. (Queue Billy Joel's "Honesty": lyrics, song -- pretty close to the above comments! Or: listen to the song replacing the word "Honesty" with "Intimacy".) |
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Post by Dan on May 12, 2016 23:07:06 GMT -5
I sometimes feel that our lack of intimacy was partly my fault. When the sex started to become rarer and rarer, I became angry at him for not doing anything to help turn things around. So I felt less and less like giving him the intimacy things, such as actively listening to him. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I'll always feel sort of bad about my own part in the disintegration of that relationship. I'm wrestling with this, too. One way I'm trying to "get out of this cycle" is to think: look, at this point, it doesn't really matter HOW we got here. I used to think she was 90% to 100% to blame. Now I'd have to agree to take my fair share of the blame. But the fact is: we are in the hole... and I just don't see how to get out. We can't undo the hurt we caused by not having sex for so long by just starting to have sex again. (I've been trying that for ~18 months now... and it is just not working.) The TRUST that we would need to have to get things restarted (both the sex AND the intimacy) is just gone. I don't trust her. (This is especially crazy since I'm the one who outsourced...) |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 1:08:55 GMT -5
Well, I stopped trusting my refuser. No, I never believed he had another woman - but I didn't trust him in other ways. Reset sex, after it happens a few times, can cause you to distrust a refuser.
The first time, you think the problem is over and things are going to get back to normal. Each time after that shows you more clearly that it's just reset sex, though.
And, in my case, he promised to get help for his problems. Usually he would make a small effort, but then give it up after a couple of weeks. Physical therapy was one example - on more than one occasion, he started doing PT, but he would stop after a few weeks.
I know it's extremely boring and tedious to have to do the same exercises every day for the whole rest of your life. BUT - this would be to his benefit, as well as mine. FWIW, I still wish he would do the PT, go to therapy and take it seriously, and anything else that would help him - even now that we are no longer a couple. He deserves to feel as good as he can feel and enjoy his life.
If he chose not to get help for himself because he felt like I was nagging him, or because I was thinking about my own selfish reasons for wanting him to get well - then he was cutting off his nose to spite his face. If he was neglecting his own well-being just to be stubborn and oppositional with me, then maybe he isn't as smart as I always thought he was.
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