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Post by becca on Aug 1, 2017 10:28:48 GMT -5
The best time to divorce for the kids?
Well, I am in this upside down situation where my children are actually angry with me because we haven't divorced.
Obviously I overshot that perfect window.
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Post by WindSister on Aug 1, 2017 11:51:20 GMT -5
Its just tough. My husband's 17 year old daughter (at the time) told her mom she should divorce him (ten years ago). She then felt responsible when they DID get a divorce later that year and she worked through some tough stuff. It was obvious to her they were unhappy, but what makes me most sad (for my husband) is HE was totally blamed for the failure of the relationship by his eldest and his ex. The relationship with his eldest, then, was very strained and she blamed him for her mom and dad divorcing.
Since he and I have been together, though, his relationship with his daughter has improved. She told me once that she sees him in a new light now - sees him happy and in a happy relationship and he's just different than the dad she remembers. That struck my heart with such sadness for him and her (them as a father-daughter team). He was NOT his best in that unhappy union and he has admitted that to her in recent years. It WAS NOT all his fault, his ex needs to carry some of that blame, too, but he's carried it all. He at least sees his part in it, though, and has communicated that to his daughters and that has helped with the relationships there.
But, yeah, they waited too long "for the kids."
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Post by McRoomMate on Aug 2, 2017 2:54:36 GMT -5
I can sort of relate. My son kept sleeping in our room until he was 12 and then our daughter was born and she still sleeps in our room every night. Well not my room any more - I moved out in April and we are separated. We had major long term SM going 6 months to 18 months in between sex. Intimacy died. I started outsourcing for many many years and did not even bother with her. Now I just broke up with my girlfriend (former mistress) and I am a bit depressed because I am totally madly in love with her, but I want I think to maybe try again with my W for the sake of the children and that we both acknowledge (my W and I) that we fucked up and need serious couple repair. We were definitely madly in love in the beginning but she got pregnant really fast and then children and busy at work - you know the story. d I am kind of jealous. At least both you and your W acknowledged that there is a problem with your relationship. My W thinks that everything is fine as it is. The other day I went to my wife's bed and try to cuddle with her and she was looking the other way at her phone. My Son shows up and said "Why are you on Mommy's bed?" as if it is okay for parents to sleep on different beds. Right now my kids are the pre-adolescent phase so it is probably the worst time to get out. My W loves the kids, no doubt about that, maybe a little too much. Maybe when the kids grow up to be teens and get more independent, my W have to wake up to get out of their lives. By then, maybe she will come back and be serious about our relationship. Who knows if I want to do this by then. My friend - how can you go on like this? Your W is the one who has "cheated" on you. Robbed you of basic human needs that are part of the Marriage Contract "to love and cherish" "to have and to hold" are not these basic conditions and your W has broken the contract. You actually are in the Moral High Ground here. Have you thought of "Zip Code" therapy? What about the following: 1) Give her a warning - change ASAP or I am leaving. 2) If no change then leave move out to a new place call it "Trial Separation" Be sure of course to check with divorce lawyer on ramifications (abandonment, losing strong position in divorce proceedings etc.). Baza mentioned "opportunity" meets "preparation" so there is much to prepare for (legal defense in divorce, finances, managing impact on children and your self, etc.). But "nothing changes if nothing changes". Then again you might think you are comfortable enough in your current SM situation (some call it "SM Shit hole"), but I wonder if you can honestly look in your heart and say? I do not pretend to know your answer only you do. Courage and Blessings !!! |
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Post by twotimesone on Aug 2, 2017 4:32:16 GMT -5
I am kind of jealous. At least both you and your W acknowledged that there is a problem with your relationship. My W thinks that everything is fine as it is. The other day I went to my wife's bed and try to cuddle with her and she was looking the other way at her phone. My Son shows up and said "Why are you on Mommy's bed?" as if it is okay for parents to sleep on different beds. Right now my kids are the pre-adolescent phase so it is probably the worst time to get out. My W loves the kids, no doubt about that, maybe a little too much. Maybe when the kids grow up to be teens and get more independent, my W have to wake up to get out of their lives. By then, maybe she will come back and be serious about our relationship. Who knows if I want to do this by then. My friend - how can you go on like this? Your W is the one who has "cheated" on you. Robbed you of basic human needs that are part of the Marriage Contract "to love and cherish" "to have and to hold" are not these basic conditions and your W has broken the contract. You actually are in the Moral High Ground here. Have you thought of "Zip Code" therapy? What about the following: 1) Give her a warning - change ASAP or I am leaving. 2) If no change then leave move out to a new place call it "Trial Separation" Be sure of course to check with divorce lawyer on ramifications (abandonment, losing strong position in divorce proceedings etc.). Baza mentioned "opportunity" meets "preparation" so there is much to prepare for (legal defense in divorce, finances, managing impact on children and your self, etc.). But "nothing changes if nothing changes". Then again you might think you are comfortable enough in your current SM situation (some call it "SM Shit hole"), but I wonder if you can honestly look in your heart and say? I do not pretend to know your answer only you do. Courage and Blessings !!! I really appreciate your opinion. I agree with you that my W don't care about marriage and we live more like housemates at this point. Perhaps I have pointed out the negative perspectives in the marriage. At least in the house there's not much fighting going on at this point and zipcode therapy will probably cause more drama in the house. Also, me doing zipcode therapy is implying that I do want to actually want the marriage to work. I was like that a few years back when I have arguments with my W about this and I realize that doing this is like hitting a wall. So instead of trying to make the marriage to work, I plan my exit strategy. While in this situation I just go and outsource and find intimacy outside the marriage. Another reason why I am holding off getting out now is for financial reasons. Me and my wife brought a multifamily house that brings good rental income and I am doing okay financially. Getting out now would jeopardize the plans for Early Retirement. At that point, I probably won't imagine my w would be there anyways. Many people thinks that getting a divorce would makes it look like grass is greener on the other side when the reality that it is not. I'll be middle aged and most divorced women in my age would carry baggage (IE children) and I don't want more drama in my life. So you see, in some twisted kind of way I am getting what I want. Not the ideal way, but at least I have a plan. But this article fully resonates why I am staying in the marriage. Thanks. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Aug 2, 2017 23:19:49 GMT -5
My friend - how can you go on like this? Your W is the one who has "cheated" on you. Robbed you of basic human needs that are part of the Marriage Contract "to love and cherish" "to have and to hold" are not these basic conditions and your W has broken the contract. You actually are in the Moral High Ground here. Have you thought of "Zip Code" therapy? What about the following: 1) Give her a warning - change ASAP or I am leaving. 2) If no change then leave move out to a new place call it "Trial Separation" Be sure of course to check with divorce lawyer on ramifications (abandonment, losing strong position in divorce proceedings etc.). Baza mentioned "opportunity" meets "preparation" so there is much to prepare for (legal defense in divorce, finances, managing impact on children and your self, etc.). But "nothing changes if nothing changes". Then again you might think you are comfortable enough in your current SM situation (some call it "SM Shit hole"), but I wonder if you can honestly look in your heart and say? I do not pretend to know your answer only you do. Courage and Blessings !!! I really appreciate your opinion. I agree with you that my W don't care about marriage and we live more like housemates at this point. Perhaps I have pointed out the negative perspectives in the marriage. At least in the house there's not much fighting going on at this point and zipcode therapy will probably cause more drama in the house. Also, me doing zipcode therapy is implying that I do want to actually want the marriage to work. I was like that a few years back when I have arguments with my W about this and I realize that doing this is like hitting a wall. So instead of trying to make the marriage to work, I plan my exit strategy. While in this situation I just go and outsource and find intimacy outside the marriage. Another reason why I am holding off getting out now is for financial reasons. Me and my wife brought a multifamily house that brings good rental income and I am doing okay financially. Getting out now would jeopardize the plans for Early Retirement. At that point, I probably won't imagine my w would be there anyways. Many people thinks that getting a divorce would makes it look like grass is greener on the other side when the reality that it is not. I'll be middle aged and most divorced women in my age would carry baggage (IE children) and I don't want more drama in my life. So you see, in some twisted kind of way I am getting what I want. Not the ideal way, but at least I have a plan. But this article fully resonates why I am staying in the marriage. Thanks. I see. Well if you ask me this is an extremely pragmatic approach - well thought out. You point out it aint so black and white. Hope you keep us posted how living in an SM, raising kids as good partnering parents, and outsourcing and finding intimacy in the near future works out. My experience and situation is quite similar to yours - and yes I did advance and had long term outsourcing which was going along fine until I got shot right in the heart with cupids arrow and mad crazy love entered the equation. That was not a conscience decision on my part - falling madly in love never is - at least per my experience. |
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Post by twotimesone on Aug 3, 2017 21:44:24 GMT -5
I really appreciate your opinion. I agree with you that my W don't care about marriage and we live more like housemates at this point. Perhaps I have pointed out the negative perspectives in the marriage. At least in the house there's not much fighting going on at this point and zipcode therapy will probably cause more drama in the house. Also, me doing zipcode therapy is implying that I do want to actually want the marriage to work. I was like that a few years back when I have arguments with my W about this and I realize that doing this is like hitting a wall. So instead of trying to make the marriage to work, I plan my exit strategy. While in this situation I just go and outsource and find intimacy outside the marriage. Another reason why I am holding off getting out now is for financial reasons. Me and my wife brought a multifamily house that brings good rental income and I am doing okay financially. Getting out now would jeopardize the plans for Early Retirement. At that point, I probably won't imagine my w would be there anyways. Many people thinks that getting a divorce would makes it look like grass is greener on the other side when the reality that it is not. I'll be middle aged and most divorced women in my age would carry baggage (IE children) and I don't want more drama in my life. So you see, in some twisted kind of way I am getting what I want. Not the ideal way, but at least I have a plan. But this article fully resonates why I am staying in the marriage. Thanks. I see. Well if you ask me this is an extremely pragmatic approach - well thought out. You point out it aint so black and white. Hope you keep us posted how living in an SM, raising kids as good partnering parents, and outsourcing and finding intimacy in the near future works out. My experience and situation is quite similar to yours - and yes I did advance and had long term outsourcing which was going along fine until I got shot right in the heart with cupids arrow and mad crazy love entered the equation. That was not a conscience decision on my part - falling madly in love never is - at least per my experience. Thanks. The person who I was outsourcing, I have to pay, she is younger and sex is good. In terms of falling in love, I probably won't imagine myself going walks along the beach and stuff because we are not alike. On the other hand I wrote another thread about me "recruiting with another woman" here. About that woman, if it had worked out, I would've probably imagine that I would fall in love because we are more alike. Then again, who knows, once I go outside the pasture, I will probably find love in all the wrong places and things will start to unravel for me. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Aug 6, 2017 19:58:17 GMT -5
I see. Well if you ask me this is an extremely pragmatic approach - well thought out. You point out it aint so black and white. Hope you keep us posted how living in an SM, raising kids as good partnering parents, and outsourcing and finding intimacy in the near future works out. My experience and situation is quite similar to yours - and yes I did advance and had long term outsourcing which was going along fine until I got shot right in the heart with cupids arrow and mad crazy love entered the equation. That was not a conscience decision on my part - falling madly in love never is - at least per my experience. Thanks. The person who I was outsourcing, I have to pay, she is younger and sex is good. In terms of falling in love, I probably won't imagine myself going walks along the beach and stuff because we are not alike. On the other hand I wrote another thread about me "recruiting with another woman" here. About that woman, if it had worked out, I would've probably imagine that I would fall in love because we are more alike. Then again, who knows, once I go outside the pasture, I will probably find love in all the wrong places and things will start to unravel for me. Well if my experience is any indicator the falling madly in love will come uninvited and that arrow will hit the heart and Lord have mercy for what comes next In my next life I just want to be a happy paramecium self replicating when I get "in the mood". |
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 8, 2017 23:23:00 GMT -5
The best time to divorce for the kids? Well, I am in this upside down situation where my children are actually angry with me because we haven't divorced. Obviously I overshot that perfect window. The one year anniversary of me saying 'our marriage is over" is days away. School starts in two days. So many ridiculous things have happened in the past two weeks. All of them enforcing the fact that I made the right decision in my timing for a divorce. The nasty truths are being exposed more and more as my STBX's power and control gets closer to being taken away from her. Perhaps there can be a strong case made for "it's to soon". But can it ever be too late, when it comes to the kids? |
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Post by shamwow on Aug 9, 2017 15:59:58 GMT -5
The best time to divorce for the kids? Well, I am in this upside down situation where my children are actually angry with me because we haven't divorced. Obviously I overshot that perfect window. That's one of those "funny / not funny" kind of statements. |
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Post by shamwow on Aug 10, 2017 9:13:40 GMT -5
I think that much of the time, the "best time to divorce for the kids" depends a lot upon how the divorce goes. If it is amicable, the age matters less since you will both be functioning co-parents. This is the place I find myself in. My kids are 16 and 13, and I think they will be OK (although the jury is still out).
If you are engaged in bitter trench warfare, there really is no age where the kids won't be collateral damage.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 10, 2017 9:31:31 GMT -5
When the kids are older they are in desperate need of "the independant stage". So in some ways they are going through the same thing we are. This way they can relate a whole lot better. It can be a very winning give and take situation. You nurture each other. Especially if one parent doesn't want them to have "independance" and want's control. While the other thinks it's a very important part of their up bringing and development.
Even later years when they are off to college. In todays world the new 18=adult is more like 22 yrs old.
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Post by twotimesone on Aug 14, 2017 10:04:57 GMT -5
When the kids are older they are in desperate need of "the independant stage". So in some ways they are going through the same thing we are. This way they can relate a whole lot better. It can be a very winning give and take situation. You nurture each other. Especially if one parent doesn't want them to have "independance" and want's control. While the other thinks it's a very important part of their up bringing and development. Even later years when they are off to college. In todays world the new 18=adult is more like 22 yrs old. That's a good point. For me, my motive is mostly financial. For people who are in their 50's, when they are being laid off, their chances of getting a job will be much harder. Me working in IT, that is especially true. My intention is probably go my own way own sabbatical away from my wife for a few years. If I get divorced on the process, so be it. |
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Post by Dan on Aug 15, 2017 8:01:11 GMT -5
For all the discussion on this site of this question (sometimes a bit pointed and "judgey"), this is far and away the BEST summary I've seen. Admittedly: I like it because it finally expresses many of my opinions on the matter! Let me recap what I find its key points are, and allow myself to elaborate just a bit with my personal spin: - In the case of violence: get out now.
- In the case of extreme persistent fighting: get out soon.
- In the case of extreme personal sadness to the point of it affecting your life, work, and parenting: get out soon.
- In most other cases: it depends. Consider your children's other factors.
- As far as the kids' ages: the young adolescent period kids may generally be most susceptible to the impact of the feeling of loss of control/stability. (Implicitly: young children will recover, and older teen may have the emotional strength to weather it.)
- If you have special needs kids, consider their needs; every kid and every family is different.
- If you chose to hang in there "for the kids" because things are "not that bad", do take care of yourself somehow. Friends, exercise, hobby, whatever. A discrete affair might even be understandable.
- Five year rule: if you are on the fence about divorce and decide to hang in there for the kids, if you still feel the doubtful/down about the marriage five years later and you have actively tried to address/fix the marriage in that period, that is probably a good sign that you've done what you can, and things probably aren't going to get better.
I really, really like these points. Thank you McRoomMate for the post! |
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Post by McRoomMate on Aug 15, 2017 13:12:11 GMT -5
For all the discussion on this site of this question (sometimes a bit pointed and "judgey"), this is far and away the BEST summary I've seen. Admittedly: I like it because it finally expresses many of my opinions on the matter! Let me recap what I find its key points are, and allow myself to elaborate just a bit with my personal spin: - In the case of violence: get out now.
- In the case of extreme persistent fighting: get out soon.
- In the case of extreme personal sadness to the point of it affecting your life, work, and parenting: get out soon.
- In most other cases: it depends. Consider your children's other factors.
- As far as the kids' ages: the young adolescent period kids may generally be most susceptible to the impact of the feeling of loss of control/stability. (Implicitly: young children will recover, and older teen may have the emotional strength to weather it.)
- If you have special needs kids, consider their needs; every kid and every family is different.
- If you chose to hang in there "for the kids" because things are "not that bad", do take care of yourself somehow. Friends, exercise, hobby, whatever. A discrete affair might even be understandable.
- Five year rule: if you are on the fence about divorce and decide to hang in there for the kids, if you still feel the doubtful/down about the marriage five years later and you have actively tried to address/fix the marriage in that period, that is probably a good sign that you've done what you can, and things probably aren't going to get better.
I really, really like these points. Thank you McRoomMate for the post! This is EXCELLENT and about as objective as one can be on this touchy subject. Really like the specifics about the child ages - currently in separation and my 14 year old son is definitely the most affected and upset - 5 year old is already pretty comfortable it seems and 17 year old (prior marriage) sort of likes it. I am a bit hesitant about "5 years" that is an awful long time - I would say 12 months - but we can debate these knit picky points forever. Over all - Really really good summary !!! |
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Post by Dan on Aug 16, 2017 10:47:17 GMT -5
I am a bit hesitant about "5 years" that is an awful long time - I would say 12 months - but we can debate these knit picky points forever. I agree the "five year rule" is a bit arbitrary; I don't 100% agree that that is the perfect length of time for all -- I was just summarizing it from the article. It is interesting to note that the article was NOT RELATED to sexless marriages, and yet it seems so applicable! I think many of us here, like me, have wrestled with these contradicting thoughts: - I can't stand the sexlessness. - It is all good except for the sex... but the longer we are sexless, I'm increasingly seeing what else is not good. Any yet: - It isn't 100% awful. - I don't want to disrupt my kids lives unnecessarily; I can "hang in there for them." - How long do I try to fix things? How much is enough? What are my obligations to my spouse and the marriage? Is it selfish for me to divorce? Faced with those contradictions, the question remains: "when is it time to move forward with a divroce?" The best advice I've heard to date is: "you'll know when you know." While I appreciate the wisdom/truth of that... it is still a bit vague! So I like the article's author's point: giving it a time limit ("I'll try for N more years.") is a welcome voice giving a concrete number. Or rather, it is an outside-of-my-marriage voice saying "you know, if you've tried for five years, you've really tried, and you are allowed to move on" which I find wise/comforting; that SOMEONE has given an concrete number for "N"! To paraphrase baza : "Choose your own 'N'..." |
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