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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 30, 2017 12:37:54 GMT -5
A lot of the research I've been reading has indicated that it is men who are more averse to marriage, and since they are the ones who typically propose the partnership...
There's been a lot of conjecture on the reasons men, in particular, are being turned off marriage.
While there used to be a mutually beneficial upside, that's less apparent now - and there are significant disadvantages on the back end of it - particularly with child custody.
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Post by h on Jul 30, 2017 13:34:57 GMT -5
A lot of the research I've been reading has indicated that it is men who are more averse to marriage, and since they are the ones who typically propose the partnership... There's been a lot of conjecture on the reasons men, in particular, are being turned off marriage. While there used to be a mutually beneficial upside, that's less apparent now - and there are significant disadvantages on the back end of it - particularly with child custody. Then throw in near punitive child support, alimony, portion of retirement, and loss of assets. On top of that, women in these situations are typically seen as the victim by society leaving the men with a stigma of implied wrong doing. (Speaking of experience with divorced couples that I know in my area.) The rumor mill churns out juicy stories of infidelity and regardless of the truth, the man is nearly always seen as the bad one. Getting married today is a big risk for a man. |
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Post by baza on Jul 30, 2017 23:25:17 GMT -5
In my jurisdiction, presupposing you have been together long enough, it makes no difference whatsoever in regard to asset split ups / custody and suchlike whether you were married or not.
"Not getting married" does not get you a free pass from paying your right whack should things go pear shaped.
My jurisdiction is a "no fault" set up. Has been since 1975.
"De-facto" or "Common law spouses" or "Co-habitators" or "Married" are all equal under that law with the same rights and obligations. Applies to same sex situations as well (although weirdly enough, same sex marriage is NOT as yet legal in my jurisdiction !!)
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Post by WindSister on Aug 2, 2017 8:56:23 GMT -5
In my jurisdiction, presupposing you have been together long enough, it makes no difference whatsoever in regard to asset split ups / custody and suchlike whether you were married or not. "Not getting married" does not get you a free pass from paying your right whack should things go pear shaped. My jurisdiction is a "no fault" set up. Has been since 1975. "De-facto" or "Common law spouses" or "Co-habitators" or "Married" are all equal under that law with the same rights and obligations. Applies to same sex situations as well (although weirdly enough, same sex marriage is NOT as yet legal in my jurisdiction !!) I was going to say something along these lines as well -- that even if you aren't married, if you are together long enough, break ups are hard and not friendly on the wallet. And yes, common law comes into play in a lot of situations. The "safest" bet to avoid all hurt, conflict, loss of money in a split, etc. is to stay single, don't shack up together at all. Ever. Keep your own separate homes and accounts. |
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 2, 2017 13:40:51 GMT -5
The "safest" bet to avoid all hurt, conflict, loss of money in a split, etc. is to stay single, don't shack up together at all. Ever. Keep your own separate homes and accounts. "Ships are safest in the harbor. But that is not what ships are made for." If one has led a completely safe life, one might argue that they haven't really lived at all... |
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Post by shamwow on Aug 2, 2017 14:12:03 GMT -5
A lot of the research I've been reading has indicated that it is men who are more averse to marriage, and since they are the ones who typically propose the partnership... There's been a lot of conjecture on the reasons men, in particular, are being turned off marriage. While there used to be a mutually beneficial upside, that's less apparent now - and there are significant disadvantages on the back end of it - particularly with child custody. Amen on the custody, brother. I'm getting bit in the ass by that one right now. I knew that I wouldn't see my kids every day (basic math), but the less than half the time when I am such an involved dad really stings. The courts are pretty lopsided towards the mom in this regard, and if I went to war over it, I may have lost. As far as the future goes? I cannot see any upside to marriage. Granted, I'm less than a month out and that statement is normal. But when I've said that I don't see an upside, people say "let some time pass" or "you'll feel differently later" or "you shouldn't say 'never'". But oddly, nobody lists off real advantages. You can spend time with someone without being married. You can be in love. You can have sex. You can have a fulfilling relationship. You can even live with them if so inclined (although that does raise the issue of common law). A piece of paper from the state saying you're bound together doesn't have any bearing on any of these things. I don't want children. I'm not religious (at least in the dogmatic sense of it). After my first marriage I don't give a flying fuck what society thinks I should do in this area. All of these reasons are reasons why other people think you should get married. And engaging in something like marriage because other people who don't have to deal with the consequences of a poor decision seems like a really bad idea. None of them are actual reasons why it is a particularly good idea with all the associated downsides. That being said, I guess under limited circumstances I could be open to the idea. Perhaps if she is a nymphomaniac coke connection who owns a Ferrari dealership? Every rule should have an exception. |
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Post by WindSister on Aug 2, 2017 14:19:26 GMT -5
A lot of the research I've been reading has indicated that it is men who are more averse to marriage, and since they are the ones who typically propose the partnership... There's been a lot of conjecture on the reasons men, in particular, are being turned off marriage. While there used to be a mutually beneficial upside, that's less apparent now - and there are significant disadvantages on the back end of it - particularly with child custody. Amen on the custody, brother. I'm getting bit in the ass by that one right now. I knew that I wouldn't see my kids every day (basic math), but the less than half the time when I am such an involved dad really stings. The courts are pretty lopsided towards the mom in this regard, and if I went to war over it, I may have lost. As far as the future goes? I cannot see any upside to marriage. Granted, I'm less than a month out and that statement is normal. But when I've said that I don't see an upside, people say "let some time pass" or "you'll feel differently later" or "you shouldn't say 'never'". But oddly, nobody lists off real advantages. You can spend time with someone without being married. You can be in love. You can have sex. You can have a fulfilling relationship. You can even live with them if so inclined. A piece of paper from the state saying you're bound together doesn't have any bearing on any of these things. I don't want children. I'm not religious (at least in the dogmatic sense of it). After my first marriage I don't give a flying fuck what society thinks I should do in this area. All of these reasons are reasons why other people think you should get married. And engaging in something like marriage because other people who don't have to deal with the consequences of a poor decision seems like a really bad idea. None of them are actual reasons why it is a particularly good idea with all the associated downsides. That being said, I guess under limited circumstances I could be open to the idea. Perhaps if she is a nymphomaniac coke connection who owns a Ferrari dealership? Every rule should have an exception. I am probably guilty of saying at least one of those... well, I think I only cited "never say never." But in the end, yes, listen to your heart. As long as both parties are happy, it's great. I get defensive when people say all marriages suck, because, really... not all marriages suck. Some people are genuinely fucking happy together in a marriage (see what I did there?). But, yeah, if you see no advantage, DEFINITELY DO NOT DO IT. The reasons I did it again? Marriage made me more/better in ways I can't and don't have to explain (not to do with finances, either). Maybe we are just super old fashioned, I don't know. We are a couple of lone wolves together -- if anything happened to this relationship for whatever reason, though, I have a deep knowing I would not do it again. This is it. So everyone has their reasons at various stages of life. But it's not love's fault that love sometimes hurts. It is not marriage's fault that marriages fail. The same work goes into maintaining a good relationship whether married or not. |
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Post by shamwow on Aug 2, 2017 14:30:11 GMT -5
Amen on the custody, brother. I'm getting bit in the ass by that one right now. I knew that I wouldn't see my kids every day (basic math), but the less than half the time when I am such an involved dad really stings. The courts are pretty lopsided towards the mom in this regard, and if I went to war over it, I may have lost. As far as the future goes? I cannot see any upside to marriage. Granted, I'm less than a month out and that statement is normal. But when I've said that I don't see an upside, people say "let some time pass" or "you'll feel differently later" or "you shouldn't say 'never'". But oddly, nobody lists off real advantages. You can spend time with someone without being married. You can be in love. You can have sex. You can have a fulfilling relationship. You can even live with them if so inclined. A piece of paper from the state saying you're bound together doesn't have any bearing on any of these things. I don't want children. I'm not religious (at least in the dogmatic sense of it). After my first marriage I don't give a flying fuck what society thinks I should do in this area. All of these reasons are reasons why other people think you should get married. And engaging in something like marriage because other people who don't have to deal with the consequences of a poor decision seems like a really bad idea. None of them are actual reasons why it is a particularly good idea with all the associated downsides. That being said, I guess under limited circumstances I could be open to the idea. Perhaps if she is a nymphomaniac coke connection who owns a Ferrari dealership? Every rule should have an exception. I am probably guilty of saying at least one of those... well, I think I only cited "never say never." But in the end, yes, listen to your heart. As long as both parties are happy, it's great. I get defensive when people say all marriages suck, because, really... not all marriages suck. Some people are genuinely fucking happy together in a marriage (see what I did there?). But, yeah, if you see no advantage, DEFINITELY DO NOT DO IT. The reasons I did it again? Marriage made me more/better in ways I can't and don't have to explain (not to do with finances, either). Maybe we are just super old fashioned, I don't know. We are a couple of lone wolves together -- if anything happened to this relationship for whatever reason, though, I have a deep knowing I would not do it again. This is it. So everyone has their reasons at various stages of life. But it's not love's fault that love sometimes hurts. It is not marriage's fault that marriages fail. The same work goes into maintaining a good relationship whether married or not. I wasn't picking on you specifically. I'm not asking you to "justify" your decision. There is no need to! However, every single person I talk with in the real physical world says that I shouldn't write off future marriage without giving me any reasons as to why it is a good idea other than as a kneejerk societal reaction. And that is the thing which got me into this 20 year shit hole in the first place. I'm not trying to be a downer on this subject. Maybe a listing of all the wonderful things about marriage would be a good thing. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 2, 2017 14:37:15 GMT -5
Love is like a fart. If you have to force it, it's probably shit.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 2, 2017 14:55:09 GMT -5
In my jurisdiction, presupposing you have been together long enough, it makes no difference whatsoever in regard to asset split ups / custody and suchlike whether you were married or not. "Not getting married" does not get you a free pass from paying your right whack should things go pear shaped. My jurisdiction is a "no fault" set up. Has been since 1975. "De-facto" or "Common law spouses" or "Co-habitators" or "Married" are all equal under that law with the same rights and obligations. Applies to same sex situations as well (although weirdly enough, same sex marriage is NOT as yet legal in my jurisdiction !!) In my jurisdiction it's also no fault on the books; however, that "no difference" turns into a massive difference when it is flanked by a massive difference in awarding custody, overwhelmingly favouring mothers over fathers, ever since the Tender Years doctrine was introduced within the Commonwealth. In the USA, the massive feminist lobby - the National Organization of Women - has opposed every bill proposed to protect father's rights in a split for well over a decade. From a practical perspective, unless the household income is able to support the purchase of TWO households capable of housing children, after the division of assets and income, it ends up that only one household can practically house the kids and a parent, while the other lives in or rents and apartment and devotes income toward supporting the household with children and the parent who resides in it - which is overwhelmingly the mother, as as awarded in contested court cases. Moreover, women and men do not have the same rights under the law in the US or Canada as it pertains to children. While women have the option of abortion or "safe harbour" dropoffs to legally abandon their personal and financial obligations to children they don't want or can't afford, men have no such right at all. Their wages can be garnished. They can be thrown into jail - effectively a debtor's prison. In many US states, men are held financially responsible even if the children are provably not their own (such as due to adultery) and in many states, NOW has opposed and made illegal paternity tests for men. In Florida, a 13 year old boy raped by his high school teacher was successfully sued for child support under the law by the woman who raped him. In Canada, the federal government has opened allowed for sperm donors to be sued for support, which has all but "dried" up the regulated sperm donation system. I'd be surprised, given that Australia has a very powerful feminist lobby and is also a Commonwealth country, if it was different from Canada in this particular regard. |
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Post by WindSister on Aug 2, 2017 15:07:01 GMT -5
I am probably guilty of saying at least one of those... well, I think I only cited "never say never." But in the end, yes, listen to your heart. As long as both parties are happy, it's great. I get defensive when people say all marriages suck, because, really... not all marriages suck. Some people are genuinely fucking happy together in a marriage (see what I did there?). But, yeah, if you see no advantage, DEFINITELY DO NOT DO IT. The reasons I did it again? Marriage made me more/better in ways I can't and don't have to explain (not to do with finances, either). Maybe we are just super old fashioned, I don't know. We are a couple of lone wolves together -- if anything happened to this relationship for whatever reason, though, I have a deep knowing I would not do it again. This is it. So everyone has their reasons at various stages of life. But it's not love's fault that love sometimes hurts. It is not marriage's fault that marriages fail. The same work goes into maintaining a good relationship whether married or not. I wasn't picking on you specifically. I'm not asking you to "justify" your decision. There is no need to! However, every single person I talk with in the real physical world says that I shouldn't write off future marriage without giving me any reasons as to why it is a good idea other than as a kneejerk societal reaction. And that is the thing which got me into this 20 year shit hole in the first place. I'm not trying to be a downer on this subject. Maybe a listing of all the wonderful things about marriage would be a good thing. Naw, didn't feel picked on.  Just adding to the conversation. I am just aware that to date I am the only one who is vocal about getting out AND getting remarried again on this particular board. At EP there were a couple -- V and Penelope were one, I know of. Again, I stay not to gloat but because all relationships take actual work, effort and intentions and this helps me to stay in the game, not fall asleep --- (so to speak). Plus, I sympathize and empathize with those in it, going through it, recovering from it. But, yeah... I didn't feel picked on.  If there was a list of wonderful things about a marriage it would be deeply personal to the one writing it, so meaningless to others. I think I tried to explore that subject once. lol No, in the end, everyone has to do what they have to do. Fact is, there really AREN'T a ton of materialistic reasons to get married anymore in today's world. |
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 3, 2017 21:12:16 GMT -5
Fact is, there really AREN'T a ton of materialistic reasons to get married anymore in today's world. Superficially... some companies are using the passage of gay marriage rights as an opportunity to stop offering domestic partner benefits to employees. Their hollow claim is that it was only there for the benefit of gays, and where gay marriage is now legal then they shouldn't be obliged to offer domestic partner benefits. Of course, that's all bullshit; it's just a PC-convenient excuse for companies to cut benefits (which would normally get them skewered). But it does affect straight unmarried couples. There is, of course, common-law marriage, which over time earns you the negatives of marriage anyway, but without the benefits. Then there's the default tax-free transfer of assets to a legal spouse in the event of death. Other benefits extended to legal family that aren't to "friends", etc. e.g, I've previously relayed the story here of the long-time girlfriend who didn't have any legal interest in their shared home or assets and upon his death found herself the unwelcome tenant of his kids who didn't like her. So, much as we malign the institution of marriage and many swear "never again", I think it's a bit short-sighted to pretend there aren't still benefits. But run headlong into it with the default, undefined terms and conditions? *That* is something to think twice about. |
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Just adding to the conversation. I am just aware that to date I am the only one who is vocal about getting out AND getting remarried again on this particular board. At EP there were a couple -- V and Penelope were one, I know of. Again, I stay not to gloat but because all relationships take actual work, effort and intentions and this helps me to stay in the game, not fall asleep --- (so to speak). Plus, I sympathize and empathize with those in it, going through it, recovering from it. But, yeah... I didn't feel picked on. 
