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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 9:26:25 GMT -5
From talking to people in SMs and looking at the threads here, I get the impression that most of us are actually very giving people. We want to give advice, to help others, to help each other. I see many in giving professions like counseling or teaching.
But, often, our spouses make us feel like we are selfish simply because we want to feel loved and desired.
For giving people, the natural first reaction is to give in, because we don't want to think of ourselves as selfish. And, speaking for myself, the idea that I was selfish has actually affected me and I started believing it. I told my counselor that my wife has a point, that I was selfish and I wanted to work on this.
Only after a week of receiving positive reinforcement from someone else online did I go to counseling in a good mood and I was able to see and show that one of my values was to be a giving person (which I usually am,) and my wife was projecting her own selfishness onto me. (She isn't selfish with others at all, quite the opposite, so it was difficult to see how she was selfish to me.)
The refused are the givers. But too often, we internalize that we need to give more in order to finally deserve to receive.
Just another angle to think about.
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Post by csl on Jul 16, 2017 10:24:36 GMT -5
From talking to people in SMs and looking at the threads here, I get the impression that most of us are actually very giving people. We want to give advice, to help others, to help each other. I see many in giving professions like counseling or teaching. But, often, our spouses make us feel like we are selfish simply because we want to feel loved and desired. For giving people, the natural first reaction is to give in, because we don't want to think of ourselves as selfish. And, speaking for myself, the idea that I was selfish has actually affected me and I started believing it. I told my counselor that my wife has a point, that I was selfish and I wanted to work on this. Only after a week of receiving positive reinforcement from someone else online did I go to counseling in a good mood and I was able to see and show that one of my values was to be a giving person (which I usually am,) and my wife was projecting her own selfishness onto me. (She isn't selfish with others at all, quite the opposite, so it was difficult to see how she was selfish to me.) The refused are the givers. But too often, we internalize that we need to give more in order to finally deserve to receive. Just another angle to think about. From an episode in the first season of Fargo: Rabbi: A rich man opens the paper one day. He sees the world as full of misery. He says "I have money. I can help". So he gives away all of his money. But it's not enough. The people are still suffering. One day the man sees another article. He decides it was foolish to think that giving money was enough. So he goes to the doctor and says: "Doctor I want to donate a kidney." The doctors do the surgery. It's a complete success. After he knows he should feel good but he doesn't, for people are still suffering. So he goes back to the doctor, "Doctor this time, I want to give it all." The doctor says: what does that mean 'give it all'? He says This time I want to donate my liver, but not just my liver. I want to donate my heart, but not just my heart, I want to donate my corneas but not just my croneas, I want to give it all away. Everything I am. All that I have." The doctor says. "Your kidney is one thing, but you can't give away your whole body piece by piece, that's suicide." And he sends the man home. But the man cannot live, knowing that the people are suffering, and he could help. So he gives the one thing he has left. His life. Gus: Does it work? Does it stop the suffering? Rabbi: Only a fool thinks he can solve the world's problems. |
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Post by beachguy on Jul 16, 2017 11:03:00 GMT -5
It has been observed often here and on the predecessor EP group that as a whole our refusers are inordinately selfish. It takes that sort of personality to inflict the suffering we endure.
The fact that most of us are givers reflects why we are here. Keeping in mind that not all SMs go on indefinitely. Many are resolved quickly by breaking up or divorce but we never hear much of them.
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Post by pfviento on Jul 16, 2017 12:32:41 GMT -5
Probably because anybody that was that selfish would be gone and out of their marriages by now instead of trying to fix them or get advice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 16:42:27 GMT -5
@shynjdude, you are exactly right. Anyone who stays in a SM for any length of time is a wonderful person. But if you express any dissatisfaction to your refuser, the refuser will accuse you of being selfish. Then you try to take a close look at yourself to get rid of any trace of selfishness. This is how the refuser keeps control of us.
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Post by brian on Jul 16, 2017 16:54:02 GMT -5
@shynjdude , you are exactly right. Anyone who stays in a SM for any length of time is a wonderful person. But if you express any dissatisfaction to your refuser, the refuser will accuse you of being selfish. Then you try to take a close look at yourself to get rid of any trace of selfishness. This is how the refuser keeps control of us. Yep! "All you think about is sex!" Uh... no, I'm not that simple "If I gave it to you and did nothing else, you would think our marriage was great!" Ummm... no, but the lack of sex is killing our marriage and I can hardly believe that you can't see that! My refuser refuses to see that what I am asking for is normal, natural, and part of a healthy relationship. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 17:11:25 GMT -5
@shynjdude , you are exactly right. Anyone who stays in a SM for any length of time is a wonderful person. But if you express any dissatisfaction to your refuser, the refuser will accuse you of being selfish. Then you try to take a close look at yourself to get rid of any trace of selfishness. This is how the refuser keeps control of us. Yep! "All you think about is sex!" Uh... no, I'm not that simple "If I gave it to you and did nothing else, you would think our marriage was great!" Ummm... no, but the lack of sex is killing our marriage and I can hardly believe that you can't see that! My refuser refuses to see that what I am asking for is normal, natural, and part of a healthy relationship. It took me a long time, but I finally realized that my refuser was going to think I am selfish no matter what I did or said. So I decided that I didn't give a shit what she thought. My brother and sister agreed wholeheartedly and were very happy that I stopped putting up with her. |
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Post by baza on Jul 16, 2017 18:49:15 GMT -5
A refused spouse might make a self assessment of being *giving and selfless" in their ILIASM deal.
Someone on the outside might think it looks a whole lot more like the refused spouse is just being a door mat.
Back in the day, I self assessed as being selfless, patient, giving, tolerant, etc.
Truth was, in hindsight, that I was continually "taking the line of least resistance".
And that "line of least resistance" was to go along with the situation as it stood, to keep the peace.
It was "easier" for me to do this than it was to dig my heels in and stand up for myself, as that would have resulted in quite a ruckus - and probable collapse of the marriage. And I was not prepared to run that risk at that time.
It's human nature I believe.
Short term, one usually takes the line of least resistance - even if it is not in ones' longer term best interests.
Flipping the switch, to making choices today that will be in ones' longer term best interests, is an extraordinarily difficult thing to do.
There is no immediate gratification in such a choice. There is no immediate pay off.
So people are highly resistant to go down that path - understandably enough.
For me it was *easier* to just suck it up, and relieve the immediate pressure.
Taking a "short term pain for long term gain" was not really on my radar back then. It all looked *too hard* for me.
Anyway, I'd be very wary about getting too carried away with our self assessments about what giving and selfless people we are.
Such self assessments 'might' be right. It is also possible that one is just obeying basic human nature.
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Post by iceman on Jul 17, 2017 9:10:57 GMT -5
@shynjdude , you are exactly right. Anyone who stays in a SM for any length of time is a wonderful person. But if you express any dissatisfaction to your refuser, the refuser will accuse you of being selfish. Then you try to take a close look at yourself to get rid of any trace of selfishness. This is how the refuser keeps control of us. Yep! "All you think about is sex!" Uh... no, I'm not that simple "If I gave it to you and did nothing else, you would think our marriage was great!" Ummm... no, but the lack of sex is killing our marriage and I can hardly believe that you can't see that! My refuser refuses to see that what I am asking for is normal, natural, and part of a healthy relationship. This sounds exactly like the conversations I have with my wife, or rather used to have before I gave up trying to talk to her about our problems. Got tired of beating my head against the proverbial wall. My wife tries to portray me as being only worried about sex and it shows how selfish I am. Nothig could be farther from the truth. I just want a normal healthy marriage that includes sex but it's not the only problem we have. Lack of sex is both a cause and symptom of a bad marriage. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Which comes first? Problems or no sex? When the marriage has problems sex goes down causing the problems to intensify and sex is shoved further aside. It starts a snowballing effect and things go out of control. |
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