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Post by shamwow on Jul 6, 2017 10:58:31 GMT -5
Is it just me, or does it sometimes seem as though this forum is hospice for marriages afflicted with stage 4 cancer? The marriage is terminal and almost always dies in one of three ways:
Stay - The purpose of the marriage has died, but it still lives on as a zombie...often taking the lives of both partners along with it. The only way the marriage comes back from this is for both partners to acknowledge it is dead. The the hard work comes in rebuilding the marriage in a new form (perhaps also a new purpose). However, after years of hurt, betrayal, apathy, distrust, lack of respect, and perhaps even hatred, this is extremely improbable. Sure, marital rebirth is possible, but this happens with the same frequently as people being truly healed by the sacred waters of Lourdes. More often, people get stuck in this stage, living as zombies, running out the precious clock on their lives until they reach one of the next stages (or actual death). I spent about 15 wasted years here, living as a zombie.
Cheat - The spirit of the marriage has died. The vows of the marriage have been broken by both parties. The refuser broke them long ago by failing to have and hold. The refused now breaks them by seeking solace in the arms of another. Sometimes this is done because they cannot leave for some reason (kids, financial, sickness, etc...). Sometimes this is done as a band-aid to provide the sex / intimacy that has left the marriage. Although from most accounts here, it simply scratches a physical itch and doesn't supply what is truly missing. Very seldom does the marriage come back from this, and it usually is just a way station for the final stage...euthanasia.
Leave - The marriage is formally euthanized. The plug has been pulled, the time of death is called, and the marriage is cremated on a legal pyre; the initial love that held it together long since decayed. Sometimes the marriage concludes in peace, other times the ending is traumatic and hurtful. But the two partners who were trapped in a death spiral (sometimes for decades) are now born again and free. Just as children are easily frightened, adults who have been "institutionalized" by the...institution...of marriage can be fearful of this new life. Freedom from the SM shithole doesn't guarantee happiness, but it does grant the possibility for those willing to seize it and pay the price to attain it.
In all three cases, something dies. It is only in the first (really low odds) and last (better odds but not certain) scenarios that something can actually be reborn.
Perhaps it is signing my final divorce decree yesterday that has gotten me into this reflective mood. Perhaps, like a child, I am afraid of the inevitable change that will accompany my change in marital status. But I do know that the responsibility is mine to make the most I can of the rest of my life. Now I just have to figure out what I want from it.
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 6, 2017 11:05:18 GMT -5
shamwow, interesting analogy. The forum is similar, in some respects... a place for folks to come to grips with reality and plan for it. Rarely fix it.
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 6, 2017 11:46:59 GMT -5
Great analogy. You describe the different stages well and I went through all of them. The same way Hospice is a support system so is this forum to help people cope with their problem and their grief as well as choose how they want to transition once they accept their fate.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 6, 2017 11:49:31 GMT -5
Great analogy. You describe the different stages well and I went through all of them. The same way Hospice is a support system so is this forum to help people cope with their problem and their grief as well as choose how they want to transition once they accept their fate. Good point...One thing I am taking an interest in (for some strange reason) is the part about moving on without making too many "mistakes." |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 6, 2017 12:03:01 GMT -5
The point at which the picture coalesces that someone has become averse to sexual expression with their partner, it's commonly thought to be the beginning of the time to address an issue. I have come to believe that it is actually more like Stage 4 cancer. The time to address the disconnection happened long ago and what remains is an active aversion that overrides the averse partner's libido. Not to sex in general, per se, though it will appear that way if that person is still committed to the fantasy of a monogamous relationship. It's beyond indifference. Resolving it might bring someone back to a point of indifference, but it's not going to restore sexual interest in that person. "Restoring" a sexual attraction is a concept that generally doesn't work in the singles world, largely because I don't think that's the way sexual attraction works.
I'd amend the CHEAT portion of what you've written to widen the lens a bit. Among the post-marriage women I've dated, as well as my own wife, the lack of desire for one's own spouse has commonly been used as a rationale FOR cheating - cheating by the "refuser" as you've termed it.
I generally question the wisdom of internalizing the division between "refuser" and "refused". I think they are both basically forms of leaving the romantic relationship. That is to say, "leaving the marriage" is a form of refusal to carry on the expectations of a married couple when one doesn't feel married.
"Leaving sexual expression" is a another form of refusal to carry out the expectations of a married couple when one doesn't feel invested romantically.
Just as with "counter-refusal" - a normal latter stage in the dissolution and decoupling - they are all just forms of leaving, for reasons.
There are reasons people leave intimacy. They might not consciously know them, or they might not be honest about them, but there are always reasons. Counter-refusal within a marriage, while still choosing to remain married, is simply another form of refusal, for a reason.
I think the more useful difference, rather than "refused" and "refuser", is the level of authenticity and bilateral transparency with which one treats the relationship.
It's easy to get snared in a dogfight about who left the marriage, and thus try to assign a level of responsibility to the other person to come back to it and solve the problems.
The flaw, of course, is that that person has left the marriage in the first place, because that's how they felt. Assigning responsibility to someone else to ignore whatever reasons they left the marriage for, isn't exactly a winning recipe. Over the long run, people have sex because they are attracted romantically, passionately -- not out of duty, or because someone "deserves it".
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 6, 2017 12:16:48 GMT -5
Great analogy. You describe the different stages well and I went through all of them. The same way Hospice is a support system so is this forum to help people cope with their problem and their grief as well as choose how they want to transition once they accept their fate. Good point...One thing I am taking an interest in (for some strange reason) is the part about moving on without making too many "mistakes." It's ok to make a mistake as long as we learn from them. We are human and nobody is perfect. Just live your life and enjoy it! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 15:34:57 GMT -5
I agree. I believe that by the time that the refused spouse realizes that it is not a phase, and things are not getting better, he/she looks for a site like this out of desperation. So there are not many options left.
Honestly, I believe that if no sex has happened for over a year, the marriage is in serious jeopardy, but if has been over two years, the marriage is already dead. In that case, all it takes is someone willing to pull the plug & file for divorce. Unfortunately, that spouse tends to be seen as the bad guy.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 6, 2017 15:39:53 GMT -5
I agree. I believe that by the time that the refused spouse realizes that it is not a phase, and things are not getting better, he/she looks for a site like this out of desperation. So there are not many options left. Honestly, I believe that if no sex has happened for over a year, the marriage is in serious jeopardy, but if has been over two years, the marriage is already dead. In that case, all it takes is someone willing to pull the plug & file for divorce. Unfortunately, that spouse tends to be seen as the bad guy. I would agree that the filing spouse tends to be seen as the "bad guy." However, it need not be that way. I don't think there is a "bad guy" or a "good guy" in my divorce (by design). But to achieve that outcome, both parties have to accept the divorce and have a compelling reason (i.e. the kids) to work things out rather than fight them out. Once the food fight starts, it seems that someone needs to take the blame. Often from an objective outsider's perspective, both parties have food all over themselves for a reason and neither is blameless. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 16:18:23 GMT -5
I would agree that the filing spouse tends to be seen as the "bad guy." However, it need not be that way. I don't think there is a "bad guy" or a "good guy" in my divorce (by design). But to achieve that outcome, both parties have to accept the divorce and have a compelling reason (i.e. the kids) to work things out rather than fight them out. Once the food fight starts, it seems that someone needs to take the blame. Often from an objective outsider's perspective, both parties have food all over themselves for a reason and neither is blameless. Shammy, you are correct in that it should not be that way. I am so happy that it is not in your case. However, my refuser has already begun trying to turn my daughters against me. She is demanding verification of things before she has disclosed anything. It is very sad. She doesn't understand that if things get nasty, I can do a lot of the legal work myself and save a ton of money. However, her lawyer's billable hours just keep increasing. |
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Post by baza on Jul 6, 2017 21:01:43 GMT -5
I reckon that, if you are in a dysfunctional dynamic, then that dynamic in its' present format has to be brought to a conclusion.
Ended.
Finished.
Depending on how far down the chute the dynamic is, then one of two things happen.
#1 (not very likely in an ILIASM shithole) is where you pore over the wreckage and find what might be worth salvaging, see if any of the cornerstones are still intact, and maybe start building a brand new dynamic on the ashes of the old.
#2 (Highly likely in an ILIASM shithole) is where you realise (perhaps jointly - but probably not) that there are only a few minor building blocks still intact, insufficient to support a new construction.
But either way, the old deal has to be demolished.
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Post by McRoomMate on Jul 9, 2017 18:56:25 GMT -5
Is it just me, or does it sometimes seem as though this forum is hospice for marriages afflicted with stage 4 cancer? The marriage is terminal and almost always dies in one of three ways: Stay - The purpose of the marriage has died, but it still lives on as a zombie...often taking the lives of both partners along with it. The only way the marriage comes back from this is for both partners to acknowledge it is dead. The the hard work comes in rebuilding the marriage in a new form (perhaps also a new purpose). However, after years of hurt, betrayal, apathy, distrust, lack of respect, and perhaps even hatred, this is extremely improbable. Sure, marital rebirth is possible, but this happens with the same frequently as people being truly healed by the sacred waters of Lourdes. More often, people get stuck in this stage, living as zombies, running out the precious clock on their lives until they reach one of the next stages (or actual death). I spent about 15 wasted years here, living as a zombie. Cheat - The spirit of the marriage has died. The vows of the marriage have been broken by both parties. The refuser broke them long ago by failing to have and hold. The refused now breaks them by seeking solace in the arms of another. Sometimes this is done because they cannot leave for some reason (kids, financial, sickness, etc...). Sometimes this is done as a band-aid to provide the sex / intimacy that has left the marriage. Although from most accounts here, it simply scratches a physical itch and doesn't supply what is truly missing. Very seldom does the marriage come back from this, and it usually is just a way station for the final stage...euthanasia. Leave - The marriage is formally euthanized. The plug has been pulled, the time of death is called, and the marriage is cremated on a legal pyre; the initial love that held it together long since decayed. Sometimes the marriage concludes in peace, other times the ending is traumatic and hurtful. But the two partners who were trapped in a death spiral (sometimes for decades) are now born again and free. Just as children are easily frightened, adults who have been "institutionalized" by the...institution...of marriage can be fearful of this new life. Freedom from the SM shithole doesn't guarantee happiness, but it does grant the possibility for those willing to seize it and pay the price to attain it. In all three cases, something dies. It is only in the first (really low odds) and last (better odds but not certain) scenarios that something can actually be reborn. Perhaps it is signing my final divorce decree yesterday that has gotten me into this reflective mood. Perhaps, like a child, I am afraid of the inevitable change that will accompany my change in marital status. But I do know that the responsibility is mine to make the most I can of the rest of my life. Now I just have to figure out what I want from it. BRILLIANT - TOTALLY RELATE. This kind of post is EXACTLY why ILIASM is the most real honest corner of the Internet. Excellent to read. |
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