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Post by Chatter Fox on Apr 8, 2016 13:43:28 GMT -5
Yep. I'm seeing this refusal to talk about it as well. I either get anger to scare me off the topic, empty promises to talk about it later, talks that stray from the topic and end up touching on everything BUT the topic of sex, or just the old "I don't know what to tell ya" answer.
In the one book I read called "Too good to leave, too bad to stay" the author calls this condition "off-the-table-itis". Its basically where your spouse has a topic that is off the table. The one chapter has a lot of good insight on it. Plus it gives all kinds of ways people deflect or avoid having conversations surrounding the subject that they want to keep off the table.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 16:00:07 GMT -5
Yep. I'm seeing this refusal to talk about it as well. I either get anger to scare me off the topic, empty promises to talk about it later, talks that stray from the topic and end up touching on everything BUT the topic of sex, or just the old "I don't know what to tell ya" answer. Yes - that sounds exactly like my refuser. But he honestly could not understand why the fact that we never had sex was such a problem for me. And I couldn't understand why it didn't seem to bother him at all. We might as well have been from two different planets. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 18:47:15 GMT -5
Yes, my wife is exactly like that. If I bring up anything that might remotely be about her, she refuses to talk about it, and brings up something that I have done that she claims is worse. The issues that I bring up are never addressed. HA! This is a VERY common indication that someone refuses to communicate and simply will not be confused with the issues or facts. When the answer to a question is to change the subject, you know there is no discussion to be had on that issue. Another indication is complex questions with embedded statements: "When are you going to stop deceiving yourself about X?" |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 18:58:45 GMT -5
All I have ever gotten from my H was just a blank stare. I talked and talked on several occasions to a man who had no concern for a word that I was saying. The most he could usually muster was "I don't know what to tell ya." The talks stopped over a year ago. It's not just the refusal of the sex that is humiliating, it's also the refusal to discuss it. I always got up after talking to him and felt like such an idiot for exposing myself and my feelings only to be met with more rejection. GS, I'm at that point with many subjects with my wife. There are things we have discussed where she cannot or will not listen to or try to understand my position. Sexlessness is one of these. She says she wants to improve the relationship, and will even ask for my input in this regard. Sex is off the table -- If I were to mention that, she would (as she has MANY times) just mock me and say something to the effect of "Lots of other things have to be fixed before that ever happens". But she's also assured me that regardless of those other things, it will never happen anyway. So, I suggest she read a book so we can discuss it (most marriage recovery books stress the importance of regular sex). Sometimes she will agree to read the book, but in over 10 years since the last time I asked, she never has. If your car had a flat tire and you asked me to help you fix it, I would start with suggesting you put the spare on. But if you had great reasons why that could never be done, I might suggest that we remove the flat and repair it. But if you then said THAT was impossible, then I would be out of suggestions. All the berating you could lump on me after that would result in the "I hear you", "Geez that's tough", and "I don't know what to tell you." Because there is no answer left for you. I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but I DEFINITELY understand the person that CANNOT offer any more suggestions when it is clear the inquisitor is not willing to communicate or listen to rational suggestions. I'm in that place over about 50 issues in my marriage. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 19:08:11 GMT -5
All I have ever gotten from my H was just a blank stare. I talked and talked on several occasions to a man who had no concern for a word that I was saying. The most he could usually muster was "I don't know what to tell ya." The talks stopped over a year ago. It's not just the refusal of the sex that is humiliating, it's also the refusal to discuss it. I always got up after talking to him and felt like such an idiot for exposing myself and my feelings only to be met with more rejection. Right there with you! I have begun to discuss things ( like the last minute grocery list as I go out the door) in front of my teenage children. So when she says, " well you have said a lot, I can't answer it all" I respond with, " how do you know? You haven't even tried! Start trying, go ahead! Then comes the silent stare, or " I don't know what to say!". so I tell her, " here is what you say, I am sorry, please forgive me, I was wrong, you were right, I should have posted a list like you said!" You can guess the response.....silent cold stare. that's when I leave and say, " make a list next time, and don't blame me for it!" Take ground, find your joy! OH, this one really makes my blood boil!! One of the things my wife will tell me is "You NEVER forgive. You keep Dwelling over the past." I don't dwell over the past, I dwell over the now and maybe yesterday or the day before. But my answer to her accusation regarding me not forgiving is: "Forgive what?, Have you ever wronged me?" She has no answer for that. And I'm seriously confused about what she's talking about. Sure she's called me every name in the book, explained in gory detail why she refuses to be intimate with me, and explained all (or probably only most) of the ways I come up short when compared to previous lovers, husbands, and strangers. But she was just being honest wasn't she? Surely one cannot be faulted for providing necessary information designed to allow a defective creature the opportunity to improve himself? So what is there to forgive? And what is forgiveness if someone hasn't asked for it and doesn't need it? Even GOD doesn't offer that. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 19:36:50 GMT -5
Right there with you! I have begun to discuss things ( like the last minute grocery list as I go out the door) in front of my teenage children. So when she says, " well you have said a lot, I can't answer it all" I respond with, " how do you know? You haven't even tried! Start trying, go ahead! Then comes the silent stare, or " I don't know what to say!". so I tell her, " here is what you say, I am sorry, please forgive me, I was wrong, you were right, I should have posted a list like you said!" You can guess the response.....silent cold stare. that's when I leave and say, " make a list next time, and don't blame me for it!" Take ground, find your joy! OH, this one really makes my blood boil!! One of the things my wife will tell me is "You NEVER forgive. You keep Dwelling over the past." I don't dwell over the past, I dwell over the now and maybe yesterday or the day before. But my answer to her accusation regarding me not forgiving is: "Forgive what?, Have you ever wronged me?" She has no answer for that. And I'm seriously confused about what she's talking about. Sure she's called me every name in the book, explained in gory detail why she refuses to be intimate with me, and explained all (or probably only most) of the ways I come up short when compared to previous lovers, husbands, and strangers. But she was just being honest wasn't she? Surely one cannot be faulted for providing necessary information designed to allow a defective creature the opportunity to improve himself? So what is there to forgive? And what is forgiveness if someone hasn't asked for it and doesn't need it? Even GOD doesn't offer that. She sounds like a monster. There is in my opinion no forgiving explaining "reasons" for sexless marriage in gory detail and comparing to others. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 19:46:47 GMT -5
My marriage is actually pretty good except the fact that there is no sex and she won't let me seek it outside the marriage. But we get along great, we even work together. We are good buddies. But we don't talk about the no sex thing. After years of therapy there really isn't anything more to say and we haven't talked about it for about 15 years now.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 19:47:37 GMT -5
OH, this one really makes my blood boil!! One of the things my wife will tell me is "You NEVER forgive. You keep Dwelling over the past." I don't dwell over the past, I dwell over the now and maybe yesterday or the day before. But my answer to her accusation regarding me not forgiving is: "Forgive what?, Have you ever wronged me?" She has no answer for that. And I'm seriously confused about what she's talking about. Sure she's called me every name in the book, explained in gory detail why she refuses to be intimate with me, and explained all (or probably only most) of the ways I come up short when compared to previous lovers, husbands, and strangers. But she was just being honest wasn't she? Surely one cannot be faulted for providing necessary information designed to allow a defective creature the opportunity to improve himself? So what is there to forgive? And what is forgiveness if someone hasn't asked for it and doesn't need it? Even GOD doesn't offer that. She sounds like a monster. There is in my opinion no forgiving explaining "reasons" for sexless marriage in gory detail and comparing to others. I hear you. I'm pretty sure she would say it was constructive criticism. I doubt she really believes that, but sometimes we tell ourselves things to assuage that feeling of being a monster. I honestly don't know what she thinks. Sometimes when she wants to "Communicate", we'll get to the point where I have to make it somewhat real to keep talking beyond the fake empathetic placations like "Oh, I hear you". In these instances I ask what she was hoping to accomplish with this or that information? Then I ask her what she thinks most folks would do with that information, or how they would interpret her intentions. She never really answers those questions -- far too introspective. I have explained to her that behind everything I say or do is a purpose, and that most folks operate that way. Most folks don't offer opinions on subjects about which they don't care or have an opinion. But my wife does this all the time. She's an enigma. Sweetheart, if your objective were to end the marriage, I couldn't think of a better start. Congratulations. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 22:22:46 GMT -5
She sounds like a monster. There is in my opinion no forgiving explaining "reasons" for sexless marriage in gory detail and comparing to others. I hear you. I'm pretty sure she would say it was constructive criticism. I doubt she really believes that, but sometimes we tell ourselves things to assuage that feeling of being a monster. I honestly don't know what she thinks. Sometimes when she wants to "Communicate", we'll get to the point where I have to make it somewhat real to keep talking beyond the fake empathetic placations like "Oh, I hear you". In these instances I ask what she was hoping to accomplish with this or that information? Then I ask her what she thinks most folks would do with that information, or how they would interpret her intentions. She never really answers those questions -- far too introspective. I have explained to her that behind everything I say or do is a purpose, and that most folks operate that way. Most folks don't offer opinions on subjects about which they don't care or have an opinion. But my wife does this all the time. She's an enigma. Sweetheart, if your objective were to end the marriage, I couldn't think of a better start. Congratulations. I love your closing statement. If you haven't already used it, I hope you do and savor the look on her face. Maybe your wife is related to my mother who has absolutely no capacity for considering the consequences of what she says. |
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TheBumble
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Post by TheBumble on Apr 9, 2016 2:06:16 GMT -5
".....she was just being honest wasn't she? Surely one cannot be faulted for providing necessary information designed to allow a defective creature the opportunity to improve himself?"
creel, these words slammed into me like a train at a level crossing. Man, I have struggled with this one for years and years and I would say it is very possibly the number one thing she did to me that screwed up my mind and made me doubt my own intuition and emotional responses to things she'd say to/about me.......that how I felt was 'wrong' because she was just telling me like it is from her point of view, and isn't that noble of her? Oh my gawd, yep.......this one punched me in the throat.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 14:05:42 GMT -5
Yes, it is very funny. My refusing cheater ignored my concerns for years and told me I was horrible for having them. But now that I have left, she is so sorry and wants to try. What she means is that she wants ME to try so that she can enjoy my efforts. Sorry, too late.
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Post by heartbroken55 on Apr 18, 2016 7:43:11 GMT -5
All I have ever gotten from my H was just a blank stare. I talked and talked on several occasions to a man who had no concern for a word that I was saying. The most he could usually muster was "I don't know what to tell ya." The talks stopped over a year ago. It's not just the refusal of the sex that is humiliating, it's also the refusal to discuss it. I always got up after talking to him and felt like such an idiot for exposing myself and my feelings only to be met with more rejection. Right there with you! I have begun to discuss things ( like the last minute grocery list as I go out the door) in front of my teenage children. So when she says, " well you have said a lot, I can't answer it all" I respond with, " how do you know? You haven't even tried! Start trying, go ahead! Then comes the silent stare, or " I don't know what to say!". so I tell her, " here is what you say, I am sorry, please forgive me, I was wrong, you were right, I should have posted a list like you said!" You can guess the response.....silent cold stare. that's when I leave and say, " make a list next time, and don't blame me for it!" Take ground, find your joy! Same for me. All he ever says if I bring any mention of our (non existent) sex life up, is "I don't know! " I am so sad. |
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Post by bballgirl on Apr 18, 2016 9:40:29 GMT -5
I agree most of our experiences have a lot of similarities and at the same time each is unique in it's own way.
Most refusers are avoidant by nature to conflict.
Having sex with their spouse is a conflict for whatever reason. Basically my spouse made a unilateral decision to not have sex with me. There was no discussion just avoidance and when I tried to throw myself at him- rejection. I was the fool to think things would change but I was naive, I did love him so I believed his excuses.
Wow did that man have a good run!
Over twenty years sexless. I learned that you can not make someone want to have sex with you and honestly I'm not interested in sex with someone that does it out of obligation. Eventually I accepted the sexless marriage, became a counter refuser, outsourced, and I made a unilateral decision to exit the marriage.
He was devastated, hurt, you name it. We were both crying the night I told him I was going to divorce him.
Hardest thing I ever had to do in my life but my refuser is a selfish person and he was not capable of loving me the way I needed to be. I had to make a choice for me, celibacy or no celibacy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 9:47:29 GMT -5
I joked to the counselor that she has a "litany" of things she needs to have sex, and she was surprised I said that, because "there are only four things!" I am sensing a huge difference of perspective here .... What the counselor missed is that your wife's list is actually never ending. A person who doesn't want his/her spouse satisfied is always going to find a reason not to have sex. I think you should refuse to see this counselor any more. |
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Post by heartbroken55 on Apr 18, 2016 10:31:15 GMT -5
I agree most of our experiences have a lot of similarities and at the same time each is unique in it's own way. Most refusers are avoidant by nature to conflict. Having sex with their spouse is a conflict for whatever reason. Basically my spouse made a unilateral decision to not have sex with me. There was no discussion just avoidance and when I tried to throw myself at him- rejection. I was the fool to think things would change but I was naive, I did love him so I believed his excuses. Wow did that man have a good run! Over twenty years sexless. I learned that you can not make someone want to have sex with you and honestly I'm not interested in sex with someone that does it out of obligation. Eventually I accepted the sexless marriage, became a counter refuser, outsourced, and I made a unilateral decision to exit the marriage. He was devastated, hurt, you name it. We were both crying the night I told him I was going to divorce him. Hardest thing I ever had to do in my life but my refuser is a selfish person and he was not capable of loving me the way I needed to be. I had to make a choice for me, celibacy or no celibacy. I can relate to what you say so much. The rejection is so hurtful and the avoidance tactics to not talk about it, worse. I'm not at the divorce stage yet, but I feel it will coming soon I'm afraid. |
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