|
|
Post by doneanddone on Jun 9, 2017 14:41:43 GMT -5
I am not sure if the first post is the letter, but I can tell you that approaching a refuser in anger will probably backfire. As in, "See? This is why I don't want sex with you! You are just too angry!" But I do suggest that you cool down & let her know that the marriage is not sustainable as it is. If she wants to continue in celibacy, she certainly has the right do do so, but she does not have the right to imprison you in a celibate marriage. I would say you could just calmly tell her that she has 30, 60, or 90 days, or any time period you think is reasonable, to turn things around. If she does not, you will assume that she does not want to remain married to you. That is all I can think of. So far this seems to be the most considerable approach. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone and it could be just a timing thing for me at the time I read them but being in a calmer state of mind does make sense event though I am boiling on the inside. I've mentioned this already a few times today on here in other forums but I already have a plan in place to put my SM to the litmus test and figure this out in more than likely by the end of the year. Obviously things take time so I give myself plenty of time for things to change in the positive or progress to a split which would take even longer so the end of the year is a good mark for now. |
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Jun 9, 2017 14:44:02 GMT -5
No one is disputing your anger. I'm just observing that the note seems to end there. It's often hard to know what one means. Sometimes the best way to judge intent is to look at the results of the action. If your intent is to engage your wife in dialogue, then you will engage in dialogue and there it will end. The dialogue is a proxy for attention. A note like that says to me, "I'm angry and I'm done trying to win your attention. It's your responsibility now to invest in this marriage." In short, it appears as an expression of anger and an invitation for dialogue, or for her to do something different - which is essentially the same goal you've been shooting for. If your intent is to change your situation irrespective of your wife's involvement - then your next discussion with her would likely skip past the expression of rage and justification - and move to execution. That's because if you are done, what your wife thinks about that doesn't really matter. That's what being done with marriage to her is. It's about what you have decided to do, specifically, and when and how you will do it. No, you are spot on. I am at the point of no longer investing and it is her time to show what her investment will be. Other than dialog and or the act itself with the intent of continuing with dialog and having sex I am at the point of executing the next steps. I actually already have next steps in place. My SM was never about whether or not my wife loved me or was unhappy with me or my performance. She made the decision to not have sex......for the both of us without discussion first. That stands out as a big red flag. What else is she going to make decisions on without me? Which leads me to think there is some or a little dishonesty in her reasons for not wanting to have sex. Her #1 reason over and over again is she doesn't want to get pregnant again. "Condoms are not 100%" she says so that's even off the table. My "next steps in place" are getting a vasectomy. We've discussed it. We agreed to it. She is fully aware of my reasoning for getting it.....so we can have sex.....AND to cross off her #1 reason. I'm happy with that decision. I'm good with not being able to produce any children moving forward. I'm completely and utterly in love the one child I have now and am selfish and don't want another kid to have to split time with. That's just me not everyone may feel that way. SO, am I a little coo coo for getting a vasectomy, no, not in my mind. It kills two birds with one stone.....IF that's a big IF......IF the wife is completely honest about her #1 reason of not wanting to get pregnant she won't have to worry about that in a few weeks and then we shall see how much investment she has in this marriage. I've pushed my pill of chips all in with 10, J, Q, K of Spades and the A of Spades just hit the rive. Let's see if she checks, folds or calls. With this, you established clearly that you are not "done" and only that you are moving to a further or different tactic in negotiation intended to produce the result you want from her within the marriage. You aren't done. You are "just pissed". Don't send her a note telling her you are "done" when you aren't. I've been there - many of us have. Telling her "you are done" when you are not done, will succeed only in escalating the norms of your dysfunction into shrieking hyperbole. If you are good without being able to father more children going forward - including after your marriage has ended - then a vasectomy is a great idea. In the singlesphere, my former girlfriend's ex-husband had an accident that resulted in an inconvenient complication in his life. I've noticed among single women, including lesbians at or around their late 30's and early 40's - there is an interesting pattern of "last chance" intentions and behaviors that could result in pregnancies. Taking control of your reproductive intentions is helpful. But, don't do it because it's her #1 reason. I did, and it amounted to a whole lot of nothing within the marriage. It's not absurd to want a vasectomy - you have had one kid and you know what you would be in for and if you are up for it. Did she have sex with your before she was pregnant? At a time in which she did not want a child? |
|
|
|
Post by doneanddone on Jun 9, 2017 15:09:12 GMT -5
No, you are spot on. I am at the point of no longer investing and it is her time to show what her investment will be. Other than dialog and or the act itself with the intent of continuing with dialog and having sex I am at the point of executing the next steps. I actually already have next steps in place. My SM was never about whether or not my wife loved me or was unhappy with me or my performance. She made the decision to not have sex......for the both of us without discussion first. That stands out as a big red flag. What else is she going to make decisions on without me? Which leads me to think there is some or a little dishonesty in her reasons for not wanting to have sex. Her #1 reason over and over again is she doesn't want to get pregnant again. "Condoms are not 100%" she says so that's even off the table. My "next steps in place" are getting a vasectomy. We've discussed it. We agreed to it. She is fully aware of my reasoning for getting it.....so we can have sex.....AND to cross off her #1 reason. I'm happy with that decision. I'm good with not being able to produce any children moving forward. I'm completely and utterly in love the one child I have now and am selfish and don't want another kid to have to split time with. That's just me not everyone may feel that way. SO, am I a little coo coo for getting a vasectomy, no, not in my mind. It kills two birds with one stone.....IF that's a big IF......IF the wife is completely honest about her #1 reason of not wanting to get pregnant she won't have to worry about that in a few weeks and then we shall see how much investment she has in this marriage. I've pushed my pill of chips all in with 10, J, Q, K of Spades and the A of Spades just hit the rive. Let's see if she checks, folds or calls. With this, you established clearly that you are not "done" and only that you are moving to a further or different tactic in negotiation intended to produce the result you want from her within the marriage. You aren't done. You are "just pissed". Don't send her a note telling her you are "done" when you aren't. I've been there - many of us have. Telling her "you are done" when you are not done, will succeed only in escalating the norms of your dysfunction into shrieking hyperbole. If you are good without being able to father more children going forward - including after your marriage has ended - then a vasectomy is a great idea. In the singlesphere, my former girlfriend's ex-husband had an accident that resulted in an inconvenient complication in his life. I've noticed among single women, including lesbians at or around their late 30's and early 40's - there is an interesting pattern of "last chance" intentions and behaviors that could result in pregnancies. Taking control of your reproductive intentions is helpful. But, don't do it because it's her #1 reason. I did, and it amounted to a whole lot of nothing within the marriage. It's not absurd to want a vasectomy - you have had one kid and you know what you would be in for and if you are up for it. Did she have sex with your before she was pregnant? At a time in which she did not want a child? Yes, we did. We had sex on a regular basis. When we wanted to conceive that's when things changed. I don't believe that is the root cause and may have very little to our SM problem today. Since our child was born, in the past 6 years I've had sex with her maybe 7 times. There is no hand jobs, not oral, no fondling, no frisky spooning.....nothing. She claims that for her it became about getting pregnant and not enjoying each other. I never said that and as the matter of fact I've told her I never stopped enjoying it. But she does profess that her biggest reason for not wanting sex is fear of getting pregnant again. So lets try it and see if in fact that's what it is. I'm not looking past tomorrow and am going into this with little to no expectations, that way if there is a change then it was a good move. But even if there is no change, I'm still going to be happy with the decision. |
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Jun 9, 2017 15:32:06 GMT -5
Did she have sex with your before she was pregnant? At a time in which she did not want a child? Yes, we did. We had sex on a regular basis. When we wanted to conceive that's when things changed. I don't believe that is the root cause and may have very little to our SM problem today. Since our child was born, in the past 6 years I've had sex with her maybe 7 times. There is no hand jobs, not oral, no fondling, no frisky spooning.....nothing. She claims that for her it became about getting pregnant and not enjoying each other. I never said that and as the matter of fact I've told her I never stopped enjoying it. But she does profess that her biggest reason for not wanting sex is fear of getting pregnant again. So lets try it and see if in fact that's what it is. I'm not looking past tomorrow and am going into this with little to no expectations, that way if there is a change then it was a good move. But even if there is no change, I'm still going to be happy with the decision. I'm not suggesting that her having sex when she did not want a child would result in her aversion to you. I'm observing that she wanted sex then... from you... irrespective of the risk of an unplanned child, and now it seems different. So if it didn't matter then, why now? And, as you point out - there are all kinds of things you can do with a person other than intercourse - which you are more than happy to do. So you know the overwhelming likelihood is that the goalpost will change. |
|
|
|
Post by doneanddone on Jun 9, 2017 15:40:12 GMT -5
Yes, we did. We had sex on a regular basis. When we wanted to conceive that's when things changed. I don't believe that is the root cause and may have very little to our SM problem today. Since our child was born, in the past 6 years I've had sex with her maybe 7 times. There is no hand jobs, not oral, no fondling, no frisky spooning.....nothing. She claims that for her it became about getting pregnant and not enjoying each other. I never said that and as the matter of fact I've told her I never stopped enjoying it. But she does profess that her biggest reason for not wanting sex is fear of getting pregnant again. So lets try it and see if in fact that's what it is. I'm not looking past tomorrow and am going into this with little to no expectations, that way if there is a change then it was a good move. But even if there is no change, I'm still going to be happy with the decision. I'm not suggesting that her having sex when she did not want a child would result in her aversion to you. I'm observing that she wanted sex then... from you... irrespective of the risk of an unplanned child, and now it seems different. So if it didn't matter then, why now? And, as you point out - there are all kinds of things you can do with a person other than intercourse - which you are more than happy to do. So you know the overwhelming likelihood is that the goalpost will change. It could. And not to play the ping pong game or tit for tat but I am a very literal person. If you tell me the meeting starts at 9 and you aren't there and its 901, your late. So if her #1 reason which she has told me more times than i can remember is fear of getting pregnant again, I'm simply taking that possibility off the table. I honestly have given up on wanting to know what changed for her to stop wanting sex. That is where the I'm done is coming from. I don't care what her reasons are anymore. I'm now moving onto the execution phase of problem solving. Trial and error. If this doesn't produce a positive outcome for me I may try something else but the likely hood of that happening is slim and none and slim is out of town. Its just that simple for me. But I do agree anger isn't anything to lash out at someone especially your spouse. |
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Jun 9, 2017 15:47:02 GMT -5
The reason you aren't having sex with your wife is because she doesn't desire to have sex with you.
I'm not being flip about it - in how obvious this is. After the vasectomy is done, it will come back to this.
In other words, think about a person in whom you have no sexual interest, and imagine having to have sex with them. All the time - for the rest of your life.
In time, she or you might end up in getting more clear on the reasons for the aversion, but even identifying those reasons with pinpoint desire doesn't create desire. Fixing problems doesn't "restore" desire either - it's not like break in the circuit where love and passion suddenly flow once you fix one end to the other.
My recommendation about not sending the note has nothing to do with being nice to her, or being a good husband. It's simply about the effectiveness of the action and what the likely result will be.
Wishing you the best as you move through the process.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 15:49:11 GMT -5
If she's not giving hand jobs or oral then I highly doubt she'll start giving you sex after a vasectomy.
Think about it for a minute and try to look at your marriage as an outsider. Your wife tells you she does not want to get pregnant. So she's not having sex anymore. She's not even sexual enough to give you a hand job or oral for 7 years. Do you really think you're going to start magically getting sex again? From an outsider's perspective it sounds like insanity.
You're not being honest with yourself. If you're really done, then get the separation started.
I told my wife that I was done just like apocrypha and many others. I've told her this on several occasions over the last couple of years. Now I'm done and I'm not saying anything. Actions speak much louder than words. When you really done, you just stop caring and are no longer anger over the situation. There is acceptance and then plans to move on.
|
|
|
|
Post by bballgirl on Jun 9, 2017 16:04:19 GMT -5
I'm not suggesting that her having sex when she did not want a child would result in her aversion to you. I'm observing that she wanted sex then... from you... irrespective of the risk of an unplanned child, and now it seems different. So if it didn't matter then, why now? And, as you point out - there are all kinds of things you can do with a person other than intercourse - which you are more than happy to do. So you know the overwhelming likelihood is that the goalpost will change. It could. And not to play the ping pong game or tit for tat but I am a very literal person. If you tell me the meeting starts at 9 and you aren't there and its 901, your late. So if her #1 reason which she has told me more times than i can remember is fear of getting pregnant again, I'm simply taking that possibility off the table. I honestly have given up on wanting to know what changed for her to stop wanting sex. That is where the I'm done is coming from. I don't care what her reasons are anymore. I'm now moving onto the execution phase of problem solving. Trial and error. If this doesn't produce a positive outcome for me I may try something else but the likely hood of that happening is slim and none and slim is out of town. Its just that simple for me. But I do agree anger isn't anything to lash out at someone especially your spouse. I get it. It's your way of dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's". It's closure for yourself if nothing else. |
|
|
|
Post by baza on Jun 11, 2017 4:31:06 GMT -5
The best indicator(s) there are that you are done and ready are -
- you have the appropriate legal advice and know how a divorce would shake out for you.
- you have an exit strategy and it is in do-able shape.
- your support network is solid and in place.
- you have fully researched and are aware of how you will help your kids transition through this upheaval.
Of course this does NOT mean you will leave.
But it DOES mean that you could.
You have - via the above - constructed a viable alternative.
|
|
