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Post by doneanddone on Jun 8, 2017 10:29:39 GMT -5
So last night in bed things appeared to be heating up but I just don't get how a wife could ignore her husband like my wife does me. Denied again, you claim you didn't know what was going on or that you were just so tired that you couldn't get into it. BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT......
I'm done, done, and done. I'm through. I'm the one that is tired. Tired of trying to be close, trying to be affectionate, trying to be intimate, trying to save our SM with any close personal physical contact between us and you just ignore it and say whatever the fuck you want to get by another day.
FUCK THAT AND FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!
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Post by merrygoround on Jun 8, 2017 10:37:53 GMT -5
I get your anger - believe me I totally get that level of anger and have experienced that many a time - find it difficult keeping a lid on it at times! However with a little "zip code " therapy which has been an absolute godsend, I realise that that anger would not make a blind bit of difference to him. It keeps me in too negative a place. It keeps me bitter and resentful - and that is NOT healthy for me. I prefer dealing with sadness - which is slowly fading and is a place where i can work from and move on.
If you are truly done as you say you are - and kudos on the realisation and determination to end the crap - then i would recommend doing so from a calm and "cold" place, with statement of facts.
Deliver what needs to be said - then go scream into a pillow or punch one.
Just my opinion, though. But I do wish you luck x
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 8, 2017 10:47:49 GMT -5
Keep this for yourself. Its honest emotion.
A manipulator will have a field day with this! Reversing it to make themselves the victim of your cold heated, angry, violent nature, against them the innocent victim.
Give it a day or two. Re-rite an example or two or three, of times dates places quotes, and her exact responses. She may try to argue them, she won't get very far, because you know the truth. The more she realizes that a % of her control is crumbling the less she will have to say, or the angrier and more ridiculous her defense will get.
A better letter would be all the things you are going to do for yourself and your daughter without her.
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Post by Chatter Fox on Jun 8, 2017 10:58:17 GMT -5
I can totally relate to the anger. I've been there. I know what you're going through. I've written TONS of similar letters to my wife that I never sent. I actually read one yesterday while digging into my journal from 2 years ago. It was quite heated to say the least. All I kept thinking as I read it to myself was "wow! ...am I glad I didn't actually send this!". It's good to get these letters written so you can work through the emotion. In the moment, it seems like a potentially good idea to actually put it in an email and hit "send" ...but I imagine many of us would regret sending such things in the long run. ...i think. On the other hand, sometimes it's GOOD that she knows how angry you are. Expressing anger isn't really a bad thing when it's truly warranted to be angry... and I believe you should feel angry. I don't know though. I lean heavily on the side of "don't send it"... So that's how I voted.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 8, 2017 11:59:56 GMT -5
When the proclamation is tied to anger, it dies as anger dissipates. You end up with hyperbolic language aimed at threatening or hurting the partner, intending it as a tool of influence. Hyperbolic language like this ends up being the default mode of communication, the result of mutual contempt.
Either you are done or you are not (and you will change your mind shortly).
If you are tired of being angry at bedtime or falling for the trap in which you think there is hope, do what people who are done, do. You don't have a sexual relationship with that woman. She is like a male roommate or coworker. Don't sleep in the same bed with her. If bed is for sleeping, then prepare alternative sleeping arrangements to allow you to have restful sleep in which you are not EVER tempted in your half-sleepy state, toward the fantasy that this person has a sexual interest in you, or will develop one. Defog and detach yourself. Go on a diet for your heart. The rage and disappointment is the product of false hope. You have ESTABLISHED CLEARLY how she feels about you at least with respect to desire. Act accordingly.
After you get some restful sleep and remove your rage and expectations, you will then be in a mindset to proceed to the next stage of what you do with a person with whom you don't have a sexual relationship. You don't stay married to them in name.
There's no point at the moment in telling her any of this because what SHE thinks or does doesn't matter. You already know how she feels - what she does to appease or distract you from that fact in the short term doesn't affect what has been established.
Be kind - your disconnection is not going to be intended to make her do something different. It's FOR YOU to do something different. It's for you to come to a place where you are honest with yourself about the state of the relationship and your expectations of it.
Telling her you are done, in anger, unless you act on that and sustain that action, only serves to discredit you further and remove your ability to communicate with meaning, should she suddenly reverse gears and decide to "work" on it.
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Post by neonspace on Jun 8, 2017 14:18:51 GMT -5
Part of me would say yes, send it, just I so I can live vicariously through you. But the reality is that you probably shouldn't send it.
I do believe there is significant therapy to writing something like that just to get it out without actually sending it.
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Post by neonspace on Jun 8, 2017 14:23:12 GMT -5
What is "zip code" therapy?
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Post by merrygoround on Jun 8, 2017 14:49:22 GMT -5
From what I understand, neonspace - getting some geographical distance. I'm doing that right now. Can't recommend it highly enough!
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Post by ironhamster on Jun 8, 2017 19:08:33 GMT -5
I think handing her divorce papers would get the message across better. She wouldn't understand the meaning of your letter. Refusers are stupid like that. I can't wait until my kids turn 18 so I can hand some papers to mine. Be careful. In some states the courts will put the cost of college education on your shoulders, in which case, 18 still means you have, perhaps, four more years of expenses.
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Post by baza on Jun 8, 2017 21:16:48 GMT -5
Like Brother @apochrypha says, "When the proclamation is tied to anger, it dies as anger dissipates".
And, in your spouses mind, leaves you looking like a dick who doesn't mean what he says. And that throws you backwards by months.
If there is one *golden rule* in trying to sort out an ILIASM shithole, it is this - DO NOT SAY THINGS YOU DO NOT MEAN All you do is shred your cred.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 9, 2017 11:00:13 GMT -5
Mrs Apocrypha and I noted a pattern in our mutual dysfunction. While I don't generally have praise for the Dr. Phil show, I noted the hyperbolic language he called out a number of times in dysfunction. In a calm moment, I noted that we had each proclaimed we were "done" and walked out - her mostly walking out - like, 7 times. It ends up like the parents threatening the kids to leave Disneyland if they don't shape up, and then not leaving when they don't. And for some reason, the kids no longer respond to warnings of normal consequences.
We adapted - or I did - thusly: I realized that when I was saying "I'm done", I meant to say "I'm angry." I tried changing that, and so did she, and our conversations were diminished in harm.
The next time I said, "I'm done," I first warned her that I'd felt backed into a corner, and that I felt out of options. She didn't back down. I was more sad and not really angry at all. The feeling was more like the death of a relative in that it was anchored to a heavy acceptance. We proceeded to separate then.
"I'm done" should have the gravity of turning nuclear launch keys, or abandoning ship in a lifeboat.
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 9, 2017 12:38:34 GMT -5
Like Brother @apochrypha says, "When the proclamation is tied to anger, it dies as anger dissipates". And, in your spouses mind, leaves you looking like a dick who doesn't mean what he says. And that throws you backwards by months. If there is one *golden rule* in trying to sort out an ILIASM shithole, it is this - DO NOT SAY THINGS YOU DO NOT MEAN All you do is shred your cred. The difference here is I actually mean it. It may be anger but with anger comes truth. Just because it wasn't politely discussed in a calm submissive setting with acknowledgment of the others comments and the typical "what I hear you saying is...." dialog doesn't discredit my emotional state of mind which is tied to my feelings and if we are supposed to be honest with our feelings in dealing with a SM then yes, my anger is truthful in the sense of I mean it.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 9, 2017 13:13:08 GMT -5
The difference here is I actually mean it. It may be anger but with anger comes truth. Just because it wasn't politely discussed in a calm submissive setting with acknowledgment of the others comments and the typical "what I hear you saying is...." dialog doesn't discredit my emotional state of mind which is tied to my feelings and if we are supposed to be honest with our feelings in dealing with a SM then yes, my anger is truthful in the sense of I mean it. No one is disputing your anger. I'm just observing that the note seems to end there. It's often hard to know what one means. Sometimes the best way to judge intent is to look at the results of the action. If your intent is to engage your wife in dialogue, then you will engage in dialogue and there it will end. The dialogue is a proxy for attention. A note like that says to me, "I'm angry and I'm done trying to win your attention. It's your responsibility now to invest in this marriage." In short, it appears as an expression of anger and an invitation for dialogue, or for her to do something different - which is essentially the same goal you've been shooting for. If your intent is to change your situation irrespective of your wife's involvement - then your next discussion with her would likely skip past the expression of rage and justification - and move to execution. That's because if you are done, what your wife thinks about that doesn't really matter. That's what being done with marriage to her is. It's about what you have decided to do, specifically, and when and how you will do it.
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 9, 2017 13:58:26 GMT -5
The difference here is I actually mean it. It may be anger but with anger comes truth. Just because it wasn't politely discussed in a calm submissive setting with acknowledgment of the others comments and the typical "what I hear you saying is...." dialog doesn't discredit my emotional state of mind which is tied to my feelings and if we are supposed to be honest with our feelings in dealing with a SM then yes, my anger is truthful in the sense of I mean it. No one is disputing your anger. I'm just observing that the note seems to end there. It's often hard to know what one means. Sometimes the best way to judge intent is to look at the results of the action. If your intent is to engage your wife in dialogue, then you will engage in dialogue and there it will end. The dialogue is a proxy for attention. A note like that says to me, "I'm angry and I'm done trying to win your attention. It's your responsibility now to invest in this marriage." In short, it appears as an expression of anger and an invitation for dialogue, or for her to do something different - which is essentially the same goal you've been shooting for. If your intent is to change your situation irrespective of your wife's involvement - then your next discussion with her would likely skip past the expression of rage and justification - and move to execution. That's because if you are done, what your wife thinks about that doesn't really matter. That's what being done with marriage to her is. It's about what you have decided to do, specifically, and when and how you will do it. No, you are spot on. I am at the point of no longer investing and it is her time to show what her investment will be. Other than dialog and or the act itself with the intent of continuing with dialog and having sex I am at the point of executing the next steps. I actually already have next steps in place. My SM was never about whether or not my wife loved me or was unhappy with me or my performance. She made the decision to not have sex......for the both of us without discussion first. That stands out as a big red flag. What else is she going to make decisions on without me? Which leads me to think there is some or a little dishonesty in her reasons for not wanting to have sex. Her #1 reason over and over again is she doesn't want to get pregnant again. "Condoms are not 100%" she says so that's even off the table. My "next steps in place" are getting a vasectomy. We've discussed it. We agreed to it. She is fully aware of my reasoning for getting it.....so we can have sex.....AND to cross off her #1 reason. I'm happy with that decision. I'm good with not being able to produce any children moving forward. I'm completely and utterly in love the one child I have now and am selfish and don't want another kid to have to split time with. That's just me not everyone may feel that way. SO, am I a little coo coo for getting a vasectomy, no, not in my mind. It kills two birds with one stone.....IF that's a big IF......IF the wife is completely honest about her #1 reason of not wanting to get pregnant she won't have to worry about that in a few weeks and then we shall see how much investment she has in this marriage. I've pushed my pill of chips all in with 10, J, Q, K of Spades and the A of Spades just hit the rive. Let's see if she checks, folds or calls.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 14:28:32 GMT -5
I am not sure if the first post is the letter, but I can tell you that approaching a refuser in anger will probably backfire. As in, "See? This is why I don't want sex with you! You are just too angry!"
But I do suggest that you cool down & let her know that the marriage is not sustainable as it is. If she wants to continue in celibacy, she certainly has the right do do so, but she does not have the right to imprison you in a celibate marriage. I would say you could just calmly tell her that she has 30, 60, or 90 days, or any time period you think is reasonable, to turn things around. If she does not, you will assume that she does not want to remain married to you.
That is all I can think of.
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