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Post by lwoetin on May 6, 2017 12:53:12 GMT -5
I think it's great that you two can talk about problems in your marriage and still have a pleasant evening together. You will not fix it overnight so it's good to put it out there. Don't ignore the elephant, ride it once in a while.
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Post by hopingforachange on May 6, 2017 13:54:09 GMT -5
Mine realized something was up when she got crappy Christmas presents this year. I just didn't have anything left to go and get her a wow presents like usual.
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Post by bballgirl on May 6, 2017 15:11:09 GMT -5
Mine realized something was up when she got crappy Christmas presents this year. I just didn't have anything left to go and get her a wow presents like usual. One year the local little league had leftover tshirts for $3. I bought him 3 and some chocolate that's all he got.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 6, 2017 15:29:39 GMT -5
Mothers day is coming up. She's not my mother. The last thing I wan't to be reminded of is how much the "family card" was used against me. let her enjoy it with her fakebook minions. The kids only do something if one of their groups makes cards or gifts. She's been so tight with all our money, they have little interest in buying her anything.
What goes around comes around.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 6, 2017 15:55:32 GMT -5
So yesterday evening my wife was being nice to me and said she loves me. Excellent. So I said if so, when could we start having sex again? She asked why I had to spoil the moment, so I said not having sex for 4 and a half years merited at least mentioning, if not discussion. She asked why I should spoil things and that the sex had become bad and we should let it come back naturally without forcing it (if you see what I mean). I asked how could we do that by not doing it. She said it had got mechanical as it were and that's why she started saying no. I said that's why I'd stopped initiating and that's why we haven't had sex for 4 and a half years. She asked why I should mention the elephant in the room as it would make things worse. I said what's worse than no sex? Minus sex? I told her I felt half married. She asked how I expected she felt? I said she should tell me. In the course of those two minutes she tried to leave the room twice and did at that point. It was relatively amicable and we had a pleasant evening watching telly. So was that the talk? And am I the refuser? You got DARVO thrown at you! shrink4men.com/2011/01/19/presto-change-o-darvo-deny-attack-and-reverse-victim-and-offender/Deny: Things are great, there's no problem! Argue/Avoid : Anything but talk about sex, She loves me, the moment, things, it's bad, let it come back, your forcing it,mechanical, things just get worse. Her feelings, try to leave the room. Reverse: YOU spoil the moment, YOU are bad at it, YOU force it, (let her be in charge of it all) Victim: YOU spoil things, YOU make things worse by confronting her in the slightest. YOU are supposed to know what she's feeling without her telling you. Offender: YOU force her to say no because YOU spoil everything! Notice all the finger pointing. All the "YOU" in there? Where's the "I need to work on that, I was wrong?" No where! It's not going to happen! Controllers love to speak in broad, general, wide strokes of the brush, accusations. They love to manipulate, and change the subject on you. Once you start documenting their exact words, and start listing facts, dates, times, receipts, photo's, others testimonies, they don't like it! They will stoke up the wide , false accusations even more. Childish statements like, "well, you do it too!" You are refusing to be her puppet anymore, you are reclaiming your freedom. Good for you!
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Post by csl on May 6, 2017 17:33:07 GMT -5
So yesterday evening my wife was being nice to me and said she loves me. Excellent. So I said if so, when could we start having sex again? She asked why I had to spoil the moment, so I said not having sex for 4 and a half years merited at least mentioning, if not discussion. She asked why I should spoil things and that the sex had become bad and we should let it come back naturally without forcing it (if you see what I mean). I asked how could we do that by not doing it. She said it had got mechanical as it were and that's why she started saying no. Two things: 1 - She loves her version of you, not you as you are. Evidence of that is mentioning sex spoils her moment. 2 - When things got mechanical, she started refusing. She didn't try to make things less mechanical, she just cut you off. Um... no comment, as I think that says volumes.
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Post by orangepeel on May 7, 2017 6:32:43 GMT -5
So yesterday evening my wife was being nice to me and said she loves me. Excellent. So I said if so, when could we start having sex again? She asked why I had to spoil the moment, so I said not having sex for 4 and a half years merited at least mentioning, if not discussion. She asked why I should spoil things and that the sex had become bad and we should let it come back naturally without forcing it (if you see what I mean). I asked how could we do that by not doing it. She said it had got mechanical as it were and that's why she started saying no. Two things: 1 - She loves her version of you, not you as you are. Evidence of that is mentioning sex spoils her moment. 2 - When things got mechanical, she started refusing. She didn't try to make things less mechanical, she just cut you off. Um... no comment, as I think that says volumes. In fairness, though, I cut her off in the sense that I made an active decision to stop initiating and, well, here we are. So she sure as hell called my bluff.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 7, 2017 7:18:19 GMT -5
Two things: 1 - She loves her version of you, not you as you are. Evidence of that is mentioning sex spoils her moment. 2 - When things got mechanical, she started refusing. She didn't try to make things less mechanical, she just cut you off. Um... no comment, as I think that says volumes. In fairness, though, I cut her off in the sense that I made an active decision to stop initiating and, well, here we are. So she sure as hell called my bluff. Friend, it certainly sounds like she avoided it ,again. That's her manipulative ways of controlling things. She put all the blame on you, again. Like so many of us, who decided, "I'll show them, no more initiating!" We step right into their trap! That's just what they want. "well here we are". Who put it there in the first place? And, who want's it to stay there until death? She did and does! Did she call your bluff? or re-confirm the truth for you? Think of it as a major tipping point, for good. So what's next? Personally, when I tell people I am getting divorced and they want to know why? I tell them, Here's the short version, "I live in a loveless, sexless, marriage with a manipulative controller. I was far to passive, for to long, just to keep the peace. Things will be better for everyone with two seperate house holds". I mention sexless a lot. I confronted her about it , getting it re-confirmed helps seal the deal. Knowing her part in this is a big factor ! It benefits you in moving away from the problem. You will find her controlling, my way only mentality, spills over into many other aspects of your marriage. Change your passive role in your conversations. Interrupt her. Say, "stop, wait a minute, back up, repeat what you just said." Then call her on it. "That has nothing to do with what I asked you, or what I said? Does it? Answer the question? You can't and you won't. I will answer it for you.". My wife tells me, "you interrupted me" I told her, "That's right, get used to it, you need it! You disrespect me, by not answering questions that prove your wrong, and you interrupt and change the topics for your own gain, I'm done with it". (That took 24 yrs ,by the way, a lot of thought and practice!. That aint me! But I agree with it) You would not allow yourself to be spoken down too this way by a cashier or a sales person. You would tell the manager, and you would no longer shop there, and feel good about it. You would level the playing field. The same needs to be done for your wife. shrink4men.com/2012/04/05/putting-women-on-pedestals-dont-do-it/You will gain your self respect back. She will turn to other tactics, and start looking for another victim. You will be exposing the truth. It's not easy. The end result is your freedom.
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Post by shamwow on May 7, 2017 8:52:14 GMT -5
I guess my question is that now discussing sex is off the table, what do you want to do. You already know the three choices.
You can stay as things are, but know that 4+ years is most likely never again.
You can outsource, getting what she won't give you elsewhere. This can be done behind her back or with her "permission"
Or you can leave (divorce).
All of these are valid options given you situation, and only YOU can decide which to pursue. My only advice is to really think your choice through since you will need to own it (although you can change you mind later).
But in my opinion you did not have "the talk" if the elephant in the room was not even up for discussion.
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Post by shamwow on May 7, 2017 8:55:47 GMT -5
Two things: 1 - She loves her version of you, not you as you are. Evidence of that is mentioning sex spoils her moment. 2 - When things got mechanical, she started refusing. She didn't try to make things less mechanical, she just cut you off. Um... no comment, as I think that says volumes. In fairness, though, I cut her off in the sense that I made an active decision to stop initiating and, well, here we are. So she sure as hell called my bluff. In my situation I did the same. Got tired of being rejected over and over and couldn't take the hurt of it again. So I said to myself "I'm tired of initiating and being shot down Every time." So I stopped initiating. And I learned where I ranked on the totem pole. That does not make either of us a refuser, my friend. It makes us the refused.
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Post by orangepeel on May 7, 2017 9:17:03 GMT -5
I guess my question is that now discussing sex is off the table, what do you want to do. You already know the three choices. You can stay as things are, but know that 4+ years is most likely never again. You can outsource, getting what she won't give you elsewhere. This can be done behind her back or with her "permission" Or you can leave (divorce). All of these are valid options given you situation, and only YOU can decide which to pursue. My only advice is to really think your choice through since you will need to own it (although you can change you mind later). But in my opinion you did not have "the talk" if the elephant in the room was not even up for discussion. Ultimately, when all is said and done and posted, it always, always, always boils down for all of us to precisely these three options, doesn't it?
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Post by baza on May 7, 2017 19:59:09 GMT -5
As ever, I'm so grateful for the empathy and validation from you all. It genuinely keeps me going. It's powerful for a third party to call my marriage dysfunctional as that's the unspoken truth I've felt for years. Getting it out there helps so much. Trouble is - and I'm being totally honest here (another massive luxury - honesty with other adults!) - my marriage is dysfunctional, but not a fucked up nightmare. So the answer to Brother Baz's question is nothing: I'll end up doing nothing. Apart from wanking, obviously. I reckon you have made a big jump forward here Brother orangepeelYou have acknowledged that - today - you are not prepared to do anything that might rock the boat. This is great self knowledge to have. It means that you are not bullshitting yourself. That's a base you can build from.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 21:20:38 GMT -5
So yesterday evening my wife was being nice to me and said she loves me. Excellent. So I said if so, when could we start having sex again? She asked why I had to spoil the moment, so I said not having sex for 4 and a half years merited at least mentioning, if not discussion. She asked why I should spoil things and that the sex had become bad and we should let it come back naturally without forcing it. So she cuts you off for over 4 years and says you have spoiled something? It never ceases to amaze me the mental gymnastics that refusers will perform to avoid responsibility for a sexless marriage! I know this is harsh, but she is a rude bitch! Rant over. Please return to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Post by csl on May 7, 2017 21:57:29 GMT -5
Ultimately, when all is said and done ... a lot gets said, and nothing gets done.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 8, 2017 9:43:54 GMT -5
So yesterday evening my wife was being nice to me and said she loves me. Excellent. So I said if so, when could we start having sex again? She asked why I had to spoil the moment, so I said not having sex for 4 and a half years merited at least mentioning, if not discussion. She asked why I should spoil things and that the sex had become bad and we should let it come back naturally without forcing it (if you see what I mean). I asked how could we do that by not doing it. She said it had got mechanical as it were and that's why she started saying no. I said that's why I'd stopped initiating and that's why we haven't had sex for 4 and a half years. She asked why I should mention the elephant in the room as it would make things worse. I said what's worse than no sex? Minus sex? I told her I felt half married. She asked how I expected she felt? I said she should tell me. In the course of those two minutes she tried to leave the room twice and did at that point. It was relatively amicable and we had a pleasant evening watching telly. So was that the talk? And am I the refuser? For you, married love includes a romantic element - desire. When you discuss the effect of mutual desire - sex - you "spoil the moment". She is correct in that you have spoiled her goal of expressing non-romantic love for you and her fantasy that it will be a sufficient basis on which to base a marriage, as opposed to another form of non-romantic intimacy. You say you feel only half-married. I'm going to suggest that your partnership feels more authentically NOT MARRIED AT ALL. That's the discomfort. Because you both know that you don't commit to celibacy when you get married. It doesn't mean your relationship is shit. It just means it's not authentically a MARRIED relationship. So now it comes down to your adult perspective and wisdom in deciding whether you want to have room in your life for a romantic partner, or whether you will stick with your non-romantic life partner, who doesn't just "not have" sex with you, but who actively avoids it at great cost to both of you. What does this fantasy of married life present to you and to her, as opposed to the possibility of having the real thing?
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