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Post by warmways on Apr 2, 2017 21:24:32 GMT -5
This is so interesting. I think it's both nature and nurture. My sis and I are very different. She would never have put up with the control and manipulations. She'd recognize the BS right away and call him on it. I think differently and am an extreme giver - I tend to want to keep everything happy and peaceful and she is more balanced and had always been sort of called selfish but in a good way. She knows her boundaries and sticks to her guns. My mom always tells this story of when I was about three and she was five. We had ice cream cones and my mom asked for a bite. I immediately gave my mom my cone while my sister pulled hers close to er chest and shook her head no.
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Apr 2, 2017 21:59:14 GMT -5
Reminds me a little of this: www.scrapbook.com/poems/doc/12550.htmlA million different versions around... A toddler is in the "all about me" phase. I believe that humans are selfish creatures, but we learn how to interact with other humans. It is both nature and nurture as many have noted - equal parts our own inborn personalities and upbringing. Parents teach children about boundaries and proper social interaction, etc. Unfortunately for those of us in SM, we find that our refusers revert back to this phase - or in some cases they never left it? The child will eventually learn the futility of this behavior and stop doing it, ie. conditioned response - just like many of us have done in our SM. Much like McRoomMate mentioned earlier. We metaphorically have the tenacity beaten out of us. |
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Post by JMX on Apr 2, 2017 22:25:30 GMT -5
My momma - was smart. She told me a long time ago... "oh, no! JMX- now you asked for what you wanted... now I cannot get it." She said it was hard because sometimes I would ask for something she meant to get anyway...
This followed when my sister asked for something in the grocery store - she tells it that I hushed my sister, told her if we "asked for it" we wouldn't be able to get it. She prides herself on her well-behaved children at the grocery. I am positive she did not forsee our future counseling bills. She was happy that we were polite, never asked for much and longingly looked at what we wanted, hoping she would grab it off the shelves. We never fussed.
My mom prided herself that our friends' parents mostly commented on how well-behaved we were. Not prompted.
I was a pretty wild teenager - and my momma still got stopped to be told how sweet, fair, polite and wonderful I was. It gave her a smile as she read all the Christian books on "how to get through to your teen".
We laugh about it mostly now. Mostly in that I can never tell her everything. Makes me sad.
Whenever I see a child acting out in a grocery store - I imagine that little girl eventually telling her momma everything. I am proud for THEM and suspect that child's therapy bills might be about something else entirely.
My girls? I encourage emotions. When they want something - I tell them "no" and smile. Sometimes I give a reason - "we can only afford what I have written on my list".! Or - simply "no".
When my youngest requests a check for book fair or lunch now -
She always says: "I understand if you don't have it, momma." They sincerely don't ask for anything either - but I wonder what issues their therapy bills will cover.
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Post by Dan on Apr 4, 2017 7:49:32 GMT -5
Sometimes my son calls me by my first name when I don't answer to mom. I think Bill Cosby did a routine about that. When your parent calls you by your middle name!! No, no: Bill Cosby's sketch was "When I was young, I thought my name was 'Jesus Christ', and I thought my brother's name was 'Goddamit'... because anytime my father wanted us he would yell 'Jesus Christ, Goddamit, get in here!'". |
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Post by Dan on Apr 4, 2017 7:56:22 GMT -5
I was considering how calm and steady the little girl sounded. Mom managed to tell her "not right now" and avoid it. This was about the 4th run of mommy, mommy,mommy, as they moved around the store. I rather admired the little girls persistence, and how undaunted she was. Like she almost expected to be told no. It made me think of my lack of persistence, how easy I cave, give up, take being rejected,"no" from the beginning that I might get a crumb, or even if I am a "squeaky wheel" the grease is a tiny amount, enough to shut me up for a while. "re-set". Being the stoic one. The refused. It also reminded me of how every response from my STBX starts with, "NO". How many decades I was unaware of it. Now when I hear it I automatically, recognize the instant reversal, condemnation, rejection of my words and actions. Almost a childlike, controlling ,reaction. But in reality...would persisting in this way have got a result? You're reflecting on your perceived lack of persistence,but even if she had begrudgingly conceded, is that enough? For me it's back to them wanting to want, not giving in because of one's persistence.IMO My first thought for greatcoastal was the sentiment seabr33z3 metioned: I don't really think that "persistence" is the formula to break through the head of a refuser. Yes, we do need to be CLEAR in our needs... but haranguing is not a way adults are supposed to get cooperation from other adults. As for parenting advice (which I find myself giving a bit of these days, as we are family friends with a few young couples who may have kids soon), here's how I would have handled this child: the first thing she wanted that was semi-acceptable to me -- say a bag of chips -- I would say yes... and let the child hold the bag. Then when she asked for the next thing -- say soda -- I would say "well, which do you want more, chips or soda?" I'd make THE CHILD choose. This teaches "you can't have everything; you need to make choices; we can have some 'fun' (snack food), but we can't all fun all the time (EVERY snack food)." |
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Post by bballgirl on Apr 4, 2017 8:08:04 GMT -5
But in reality...would persisting in this way have got a result? You're reflecting on your perceived lack of persistence,but even if she had begrudgingly conceded, is that enough? For me it's back to them wanting to want, not giving in because of one's persistence.IMO My first thought for greatcoastal was the sentiment seabr33z3 metioned: I don't really think that "persistence" is the formula to break through the head of a refuser. Yes, we do need to be CLEAR in our needs... but haranguing is not a way adults are supposed to get cooperation from other adults. As for parenting advice (which I find myself giving a bit of these days, as we are family friends with a few young couples who may have kids soon), here's how I would have handled this child: the first thing she wanted that was semi-acceptable to me -- say a bag of chips -- I would say yes... and let the child hold the bag. Then when she asked for the next thing -- say soda -- I would say "well, which do you want more, chips or soda?" I'd make THE CHILD choose. This teaches "you can't have everything; you need to make choices; we can have some 'fun' (snack food), but we can't all fun all the time (EVERY snack food)." I agree with you Dan about the haranguing. I should not have to beg and plead for the man I married to have sex with me - (shoutout to MettaMomma). One had nothing to do with the other. Our marriages are not normal. 80% of marriages are not sexless. Again we enabled our refusers as well as to some degree you get so far into a marriage and have obligations to children, finances, etc. so a quick divorce is not always an option. My husband knew I liked sex and knew I wanted sex with him but I wasn't going to beg for it. He neglected me to the point that I had no intimate feelings left for him. He had a good run though 23 years of the marriage he wanted. I have no room in my life any longer for takers. |
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Post by seabr33z3 on Apr 4, 2017 12:06:37 GMT -5
Sometimes my son calls me by my first name when I don't answer to mom. I think Bill Cosby did a routine about that. When your parent calls you by your middle name!! But when it's all three names...look out! |
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Post by seabr33z3 on Apr 4, 2017 12:12:58 GMT -5
But in reality...would persisting in this way have got a result? You're reflecting on your perceived lack of persistence,but even if she had begrudgingly conceded, is that enough? For me it's back to them wanting to want, not giving in because of one's persistence.IMO My first thought for greatcoastal was the sentiment seabr33z3 metioned: I don't really think that "persistence" is the formula to break through the head of a refuser. Yes, we do need to be CLEAR in our needs... but haranguing is not a way adults are supposed to get cooperation from other adults. As for parenting advice (which I find myself giving a bit of these days, as we are family friends with a few young couples who may have kids soon), here's how I would have handled this child: the first thing she wanted that was semi-acceptable to me -- say a bag of chips -- I would say yes... and let the child hold the bag. Then when she asked for the next thing -- say soda -- I would say "well, which do you want more, chips or soda?" I'd make THE CHILD choose. This teaches "you can't have everything; you need to make choices; we can have some 'fun' (snack food), but we can't all fun all the time (EVERY snack food)." The second part of that is a bit more realistic when it comes to SM's. " well..which is it to be? This(insert word ie cuddles)or this(sex)...you can't have it all"....actually that's not right...THEY get to choose the treats and there's never option 2. More like " this is all you are getting". |
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Post by Dan on Apr 4, 2017 12:18:16 GMT -5
The second part of that is a bit more realistic when it comes to SM's. " well..which is it to be? This(insert word ie cuddles)or this(sex)...you can't have it all"....actually that's not right...THEY get to choose the treats and there's never option 2. More like " this is all you are getting". Just to be clear my parenting advice (teach your children to be modest in their wants), is not my marriage advice... which would be: "find someone sexually compatible, then cuddle away or f*ck your brains out -- doesn't matter to me which -- but do it often."  |
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Post by seabr33z3 on Apr 4, 2017 14:33:48 GMT -5
The second part of that is a bit more realistic when it comes to SM's. " well..which is it to be? This(insert word ie cuddles)or this(sex)...you can't have it all"....actually that's not right...THEY get to choose the treats and there's never option 2. More like " this is all you are getting". Just to be clear my parenting advice (teach your children to be modest in their wants), is not my marriage advice... which would be: "find someone sexually compatible, then cuddle away or f*ck your brains out -- doesn't matter to me which -- but do it often." Sounds great except....time and time and time again in this forum we see people who actually thought they had that...the bait... and then came switch, sometimes on the wedding night. How does one account for that? ( rhetorical)btw agree on one bit of advice for them and one for us 😝 |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 4, 2017 17:30:40 GMT -5
I was considering how calm and steady the little girl sounded. Mom managed to tell her "not right now" and avoid it. This was about the 4th run of mommy, mommy,mommy, as they moved around the store. I rather admired the little girls persistence, and how undaunted she was. Like she almost expected to be told no. It made me think of my lack of persistence, how easy I cave, give up, take being rejected,"no" from the beginning that I might get a crumb, or even if I am a "squeaky wheel" the grease is a tiny amount, enough to shut me up for a while. "re-set". Being the stoic one. The refused. It also reminded me of how every response from my STBX starts with, "NO". How many decades I was unaware of it. Now when I hear it I automatically, recognize the instant reversal, condemnation, rejection of my words and actions. Almost a childlike, controlling ,reaction. But in reality...would persisting in this way have got a result? You're reflecting on your perceived lack of persistence,but even if she had begrudgingly conceded, is that enough? For me it's back to them wanting to want, not giving in because of one's persistence.IMO Reading this again reminds of some of the older kids I would see at the bus stop. They were "takers". Their mom was a" giver". The child received zero discipline and made the mother look like a fool the way they would ignore her authority. Those kids grew up to be trouble. Think of how that plays into a SM. No respect for boundaries through manipulative control. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2017 10:03:49 GMT -5
I got VERY strong messages as a child not to bother people, not to ask for things, not to ask for help, and not to burden others.
I'm STILL suffering as a result. All these years of therapy and self-help books, and I am still very unassertive.
My dad pretty much forbade me to interrupt him, or to say or do anything that would make my mother worry - because her worrying got on his nerves and he didn't want to have to deal with it.
So, I never told either of my parents anything that might upset them, if I could avoid it. I became a champion at finding my own ways to solve problems.
When things were still good between me and Mr. Kat, he noticed that I had a lot of trouble asking for help, or accepting it when he wanted to take care of me.
I like to think that maybe, during the time our relationship was good, he helped me at least a little bit to reach out when I need to.
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